Noob looking for recommendations

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HydrogLox
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by HydrogLox »

Kimblist wrote:I think I will leave downloadable titles be for the time being, stocking up on retail copies before prices go up might not be a stupid move.
That thinking could also be applied to your current favorite:
Under Defeat HD Deluxe Edition (Xbox 360)
Under Defeat HD Deluxe Edition (PS3)

That being said you should take advantage of the demo mode of various XBLA games to figure out where your personal preferences are at - just be careful not to get sucked into buying everything on first sight.
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Skykid
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Skykid »

Special World wrote:Deathsmiles looks... disgusting?
That's a bit much, but it is part of Cave's period of clunky pre-renders badly cut and pasted against backdrops with varying resolutions and other weirdness. Gaudy and rough around the edges, but not disgusting. Bedfellows with Mushi Futari and MMP in graphical terms - which always struck me as odd because all of them postdate Espgaluda II which is aesthetically superior in every which way.

My theory is they had several projects on the go simultaneously and the art team were horribly stretched until DFK. At least that's how it looks.
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To Far Away Times
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by To Far Away Times »

Mushi Futari is the ultimate beginner game. Buy the game, get the Black Label DLC and play Black Label Original. The game has tremendous production values and Futari/Futari Black Label is consistently near the very top of the best shmups of all time vote here on the forum. It will provide some challenge, but it won't be insurmountable. It has a fantastic scoring system that you can experiment with that as well.

As you get better you can try out more of the difficulty modes (which change the game layout considerably, much more than the typical difficulty select in a game). It's a game you can play forever.

It's an import game, but it's region free and it shouldn't be more than $40 these days and the Black Label DLC is $15 I think.
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BIL
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by BIL »

Play Gun.Smoke so you can know shmuppin terror. :3 Then return later on and show it who's boss. (・`ω´・)

Kamui (PC) is an exemplary introductory shooter. Generous with the hitpoints and lives but arcade-tough and arcade-tight in all other regards. Super smooth handling, godly weaponry, aged but endearingly bold pixels with furious explosive energy, and a elegiac soundtrack bridging the funereal and the furious. It was one of my big gateway shooters after Gradius V and shares much of its beginner-friendly traits, but it's tighter-paced and probably more accessible to get up and running.
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Kimblist
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Kimblist »

Skykid wrote:
Special World wrote:Deathsmiles looks... disgusting?
That's a bit much, but it is part of Cave's period of clunky pre-renders badly cut and pasted against backdrops with varying resolutions and other weirdness. Gaudy and rough around the edges, but not disgusting.
I don't mind a game looking a little rough around the edges, that's fine. It's the loli imagery that feels foreign to me and makes the game look like a pedo shmup. But it's nothing I can't overlook.

Anyways, I got both Deathsmiles and Akai Katana for €15 yesterday.
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

To Far Away Times wrote:Mushi Futari is the ultimate beginner game. Buy the game, get the Black Label DLC and play Black Label Original. The game has tremendous production values and Futari/Futari Black Label is consistently near the very top of the best shmups of all time vote here on the forum.
Black Label Original is definitely the easiest of the arcade modes, but the problem is that the rank is very nasty - there's a big difference between survival and scoring in it. It's a fun clear, but it's very tough if you're aiming to score because it requires pointblanking as much as possible for gem shedding.

Novice Ultra is a fantastic clear that trains beginners to deal with high volumes of slow bullets and focuses on scoring. It's a lot of fun too.
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Skykid
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Skykid »

To Far Away Times wrote:Futari... play Black Label Original. The game has tremendous production values
It does? Why? DFK must have broke the bank if that's the case.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Bananamatic »

tbh novice ultra only teaches you that you dont have to learn anything if the game has autobombs and a stupid amount of resources
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Special World
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Special World »

Skykid wrote:
To Far Away Times wrote:Futari... play Black Label Original. The game has tremendous production values
It does? Why? DFK must have broke the bank if that's the case.
Futari has actual style, whereas DFK feels completely bland and stripped of soul. DFK Black Label is actually kind of cool though, in that it takes the too-generic Cave-iness of DFK and pushes it into overdrive, somehow making it all work. The music also goes a long way, there.
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Skykid
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Skykid »

Special World wrote:
Skykid wrote:
To Far Away Times wrote:Futari... play Black Label Original. The game has tremendous production values
It does? Why? DFK must have broke the bank if that's the case.
Futari has actual style, whereas DFK feels completely bland and stripped of soul. DFK Black Label is actually kind of cool though, in that it takes the too-generic Cave-iness of DFK and pushes it into overdrive, somehow making it all work. The music also goes a long way, there.
But its production values aren't significant compared to any other release. Only DFK appears to have upped the ante on budget.

Personally I don't think 'actual style' when I think of Futari, I think kind of garish with a difficult to define avatar - but the last stage with that Chinese folk song Namiki ripped off is when it comes into its own on an aesthetic level. It's just a short-lived thing, and perhaps the previous stages would have benefited from more character (like original Mushi's stg 3&4).

Actually if we're talking style alone and ignoring gameplay fundamentals I'd say DFK is definitely the better of the two.
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trap15
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by trap15 »

I agree 100% with Skykid.
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Special World
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Special World »

imo "garish" is exactly how I'd describe DFK... and then Black Label succeeds because it recognizes that garishness and ramps it up to a ridiculous degree and turns it from soullessness into inspired design, especially that heavy electronic song w/ vocals in stage 5(?). Love the stage-end song as well. For me, DFK has the most indistinct style, worst soundtrack, and cumbersome and unfun mechanics of Cave's whole 360 output at the very least. But yeah, they sure did put a lot into its production, especially when you consider how many modes there are in the 360 release as well. I was ready to be totally blown away... then I played it <:O

To each his own. To me, Futari has beautiful patterns and a hyper-colorful bubblegum aesthetic that I really like. I'm not 100% sure it's got my favorite look of any Cave game, but... probably. Espgaluda 2 is more defined, but I find the enemy designs very dull. DOJ has maybe the most purely defined vision and feel, but it's sort of ugly to look at. Ketsui is like that too—it's like a failed utopia, scrubbed clean and pure white, but it's a little bit too sterile. Mushihimesama has a really beautiful ethereal feel, but it's maybe a little bit too washed out. Sometimes I like its look more than Futari.

But that I can call DFK easily Cave's worst (imo!) is quite a feat, because it wouldn't be bad in isolation. In fact it's quite a good game. Just compared to everything else Cave's put out, it doesn't hold up at all for me.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Bananamatic »

man all that talk and you can't even remember that the dfkbl track with vocals is in st4
i knew that before i got the damn game

either way you can just swap any bgm for the BL one on the port
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Special World
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Special World »

Bananamatic wrote:man all that talk and you can't even remember that the dfkbl track with vocals is in st4
i knew that before i got the damn game

either way you can just swap any bgm for the BL one on the port
It's been a while, there's like 15 great shooters on the 360 alone <:O

Also I don't think you can do that if you have black label on the Ketsuipachi disc, can you? Either way it doesn't matter, I'd never choose to play DFK over DFK Black anyhow. I play it maybe once a year, to see whether I still dislike it. And, invariably, I do.
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Squire Grooktook
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Squire Grooktook »

To be honest, I've always felt Futari was a bit over-rated in terms of its world/setting/aesthetic.

It's just that the whole setting is a bit "homegenous". You just go from lush nature setting, to lush nature setting, to lush nature setting. Sure you get an Ice Cap Zone or a fortress every now and than, but I don't see the imagination of something like Dragon Saber where every part of the game world is incredibly unique and intriguing but still gels with the games overall setting and theme.

The music on Stage 4 and 5 add a lot to the atmosphere though.
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Special World
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

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Cave's games are just kinda like that. You either have games that are all rusted out warzones, or you have ones that alternate locales like a 2D platformer. "Here's the ice stage, here's the desert, here's the glimmering cave, etc."

And let's not even talk about Saidaioujou...

Yeah, Cave could be a little more original with its level themeing overall, imo. Although this is maybe a tendency of the genre as a whole (once we get past golden age horis, which were pretty cool about their visual design) and not specifically Cave's doing.
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Squire Grooktook
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Yeah. I think of all of them though, DDP and DOJ pull it off best. DDP because each stage has an almost completely different color scheme, and DOJ because keeping that sense of dilapidation throughout the game adds to that particular theme. I don't like to make this comparison a lot but DOJ's aesthetic is like a sci-fi Dark Souls in some ways.
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

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What does "soul" even mean? DFK has great visual effects up the ass, very well modeled and rendered graphics (except maybe the bosses), and in general is visually the most interesting game CAVE has made except for maybe Espgaluda II. I don't enjoy playing it, but I love just looking at it.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Bananamatic »

i think sdoj looks cool
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Special World
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Special World »

Squire Grooktook wrote:Yeah. I think of all of them though, DDP and DOJ pull it off best. DDP because each stage has an almost completely different color scheme, and DOJ because keeping that sense of dilapidation throughout the game adds to that particular theme. I don't like to make this comparison a lot but DOJ's aesthetic is like a sci-fi Dark Souls in some ways.
Yeah, I would say there are a handful of Cave games that have a sort of "vision" that the other games lack. DOJ, Ketsui, and the original Mushi are like this. Guwange has a very distinct look, but that doesn't really translate to the same sort of emotive resonance.
trap15 wrote:What does "soul" even mean? DFK has great visual effects up the ass, very well modeled and rendered graphics (except maybe the bosses), and in general is visually the most interesting game CAVE has made except for maybe Espgaluda II. I don't enjoy playing it, but I love just looking at it.
I dunno. To me, DFK looks and feels like Cave just said "make this game have shiny metal spaceships" and that was all the aesthetic thought they put into it. Where Ketsui feels stark, white, antiseptic, and a little alienating, DFK just feels squeaky clean and visually undirected. Where Futari is bubblegum, DFK is just saccharine. It's really bland to me. I don't find it appealing at all, and that's okay, because everyone's bound to have one Cave game they like less than the others. Right?
Bananamatic wrote:i think sdoj looks cool
Me too. I think it looks great. But the first three levels might as well have the same background. There's uh... city, city with trees, city with water...
Last edited by Special World on Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

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Bananamatic wrote:i think sdoj looks cool
SDOJ would look better if the stages weren't the same screen copy-pasted then mirrored 3 times ;)
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

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Special World wrote:city with water...
I think that stage is actually a water park, which is kind of awesome.
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Skykid
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

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It's the game itself that puts you off DFK, something that's been rattled around this forum since the DFK meh thread - but if you sit back and watch rather than play, it's one of the most visually intoxicating shmups ever created: incendiary from start to finish and a ripping gala of OTT bluster that positively boils over when Ura bosses warp through the screen fabric.

The elemental dolls suck and are a design error, and there are still improvements that could have been made - but as a spectacle it's right up there.
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Obscura
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Obscura »

Am I the only person who actually likes the loli transformation animations?

(Also, DFK > Futari, any day. In any category. DOJBL blows both away, though.)
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Shepardus »

I like the animations (practically anything with mechanical transformations is cool in my eye), but its presence in a series like Dodonpachi is just uncomfortably weird to me.

I have the same feeling about DFK as Skykid posted above - it's a game I enjoy watching more than actually playing.
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Kimblist »

One more thing, I have next to no experience of importing games, so I'm wondering if this version of Eschatos is playable on a PAL region 360. The product description is a little bit ambiguous.
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Ebbo »

The Wonder Price version is region-free, just like the original release. So yes, it plays fine on a PAL-console as well.
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by SuperSoaker360 »

Seconding everyone's suggestions for Mushihimesama Futari and DieFuckCats
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

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Ebbo wrote:The Wonder Price version is region-free, just like the original release. So yes, it plays fine on a PAL-console as well.
Awesome! Thanks.
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Special World
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Re: Noob looking for recommendations

Post by Special World »

Skykid wrote:It's the game itself that puts you off DFK, something that's been rattled around this forum since the DFK meh thread - but if you sit back and watch rather than play, it's one of the most visually intoxicating shmups ever created: incendiary from start to finish and a ripping gala of OTT bluster that positively boils over when Ura bosses warp through the screen fabric.

The elemental dolls suck and are a design error, and there are still improvements that could have been made - but as a spectacle it's right up there.
We can agree to disagree, but I assure you I don't like the game's graphic design. The graphic design is very vanilla me-too space shooter, I hate the green hyper lasers, hypering ruins the spectacle of the bullet patterns, I don't dig red bullets for some reason, I hate the transforming bosses, and I don't find the scoring items nearly as enticing as those in Futari Black or the original Mushi. The terribland soundtrack, awful scoring system, and forced autobomb certainly don't do it any favors, but those really aren't biasing me to a large extent. I don't like the way the game looks, and that is that.

But you're right of course — I don't like its style. This somehow became all about its visual design, when I was mostly talking about the entire package. Trap15 asked me what "soul" even means, and I guess I'd respond that it's the difference between a book that's written well and a book that's actually masterful. DFK may (or may not) look the part, it might have special warping effects and lots of bullets and crazy amounts of scoring items, but there is no meaningful gestalt. DOJ has a feeling of oppressive dilapidation, Ketsui has a totalitarian white-washed sterility, Mushihimesama has verdant beauty, and Muchi Muchi Pork has cartoon craziness. DFK has nothing.

DFK does not inspire in me any sort of deeper feeling. There is no emotional resonance for me, there is no artistry, there are only the graphics and the gameplay. This is a particular sticking point in scrolling shooters, because so much of the conversation around these games is the gameplay, the gameplay, the gameplay. But there's a great deal more to the genre than that, and in my opinion (and perhaps only my opinion, as far as the posters in this topic are concerned) DFK completely lacks that something extra. And it lacks it in just about every aspect I can name: the visual design, the music, the scoring, and the complexity of the gameplay in relation to what it actually does with it.

I get this something extra from every other Cave game. But DFK leaves me totally cold. You can disagree if you want, but I definitely do not like the graphics (or the gameplay, or the music). I do really love some of the boss patterns, though!
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