DOA series creator: "Hardcore players killed shmups"

[Pretas]

Evolve has an offline solo mode where you can instantly switch between the four hunters with the D-pad (bots control the ones you're not using).

[DanMagoo]

By doing what exactly?

I haven't played it, I passed on it after seeing unimpressive gameplay videos I must admit. So what exactly does it do?
It's received good reviews. Like Sine Mora did.

Erm... by creating a fun and accessible shooting game with advanced graphics and detailed scoring mechanics?

In other words by evolving the genre, much as Sine Mora did. But shock horror the fanboys on the shmups forum said 'it's not Japanese and it doesn't look like a Cave game- it must be crap!'

Without playing it.

[Lord Satori]

I'd hardly count a game that has a gigantic unavoidable piano drop on the player as a result of picking up a powerup as a game that "evolved the genre".

It has good graphics, I'll give it that, but that's kind of... it.

[DanMagoo]

I'd hardly count a game that has a gigantic unavoidable piano drop on the player as a result of picking up a powerup as a game that "evolved the genre".

It has good graphics, I'll give it that, but that's kind of... it.

So what parts of this highly positive review from IGN do you take issue with?

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/11/13/resogun-review

With some deceptively simple changes, Housemarque took a genre nearly as old as videogaming itself and made a tense, challenging, and excellent shooter. It may be short, but its addictive cycle of cylindrical shooter gameplay, great looks, and catchy music make it worth replaying in endless pursuit of that high score on the leaderboard.

[SuperSoaker360]

LOL IGN. okay fuck it, I'm out.

[DanMagoo]

LOL IGN. okay fuck it, I'm out.

Fine, take your pick, and tell us what all of these reviews got wrong:

http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstat ... ic-reviews

[Lilium]

EDIT: Actually fuck it, I don't care for this. I'm out.

[Shepardus]

Erm... by creating a fun and accessible shooting game with advanced graphics and detailed scoring mechanics?

In other words by evolving the genre, much as Sine Mora did.

How is that "evolving the genre"? Aside from maybe the "advanced graphics," I'm sure those are the same qualities many of us here laud in classics over a decade old.

I really have no idea at this point where this thread is supposed to be going, at the end of the day reviewers such as those writing for IGN are usually judging games by different metrics from those people here are using to judge games, which makes sense considering how we've already established many times over that the average gamer nowadays has different tastes from hardcore shmup fans. Just because a game's gotten high reviews doesn't mean that's the direction the genre needs to be taken in. Maybe aligning your game with the tastes of reviewers will result in more sales and general popularity, but to a current shmup fan trying to promote the genre the most important factor is whether you manage to preserve the ideals they love; if you don't the game may as well be a different genre.

(I've never played Resogun or Sine Mora so I don't intend to comment on either game's qualities or faults, just speaking more generally.)

[Squire Grooktook]

In other words by evolving the genre, much as Sine Mora did.

Sine Mora did nothing that hadn't been done much better by countless shmups in the past 2 decades.

Time control mechanic? Esp Galuda did it better.

Involved Story? Radiant Silvergun did it better.

Lots of ships available? Raiden Fighters and hell, even R-type Final did it better.

Accessible? Not sure I'd call a blatant trial and error memorizer "accessible".

Scoring mechanics? Rayforce is simple as fuck, came out in 1993, and had a much smarter system based around risk/reward and strategic utilization of the main mechanic instead of ignoring it completely (did the guys who made this fucking game even attend a damn game design class or read a book?)

Level design? Pick any shmup from any well known developer, new or old. Chances are they had more vibrant, varied, creative and carefully designed hazards, level layouts, and enemy placements.

Resogun is a good game as far as I can tell but Sine Mora is just mediocre with no thought put into design. To be honest, it's not quite the "legendary kusoge" some people make it out to be, but it's mediocre at best.

, but to a current shmup fan trying to promote the genre it's only meaningful if you manage to preserve the ideals they love; if you don't the game may as well be a different genre.

This is very important. Because at the end of the day, the thing that makes shmups fundamentally feel the way they are is the very thing that makes the majority hate them.

Shmups are not just about bullets. Fundamentally, at their core, they are arcade styled games. The arcade format is what makes the majority hate them, and its exactly what makes shmups feel the way they do. If it doesn't have the arcade format, it's not a shmup.



Anyway online co op should be a big selling point for future shmups IMO if they want a little bit more attention. Jamestown not having online co op is the biggest fucking tragedy for shmups this decade because the co op in that game is damn good and it could have made a little bigger splash and converted a few skeptics had it been included.

[DanMagoo]

This is very important. Because at the end of the day, the thing that makes shmups fundamentally feel the way they are is the very thing that makes the majority hate them.

Shmups are not just about bullets. Fundamentally, at their core, they are arcade styled games. The arcade format is what makes the majority hate them, and its exactly what makes shmups feel the way they do. If it doesn't have the arcade format, it's not a shmup.

Well how many arcade games have you ever played in an arcade that are on free play and have a training mode for all of the stages and bosses?

As far as I understand it, the only true arcade way to play Battle Garrega PCB is to leave the cab on and take the increase in rank with every new credit like a man, but who does that?

Fact is these games are not arcade style games once they come home.

Anyway online co op should be a big selling point for future shmups IMO if they want a little bit more attention. Jamestown not having online co op is the biggest fucking tragedy for shmups this decade because the co op in that game is damn good and it could have made a little bigger splash and converted a few skeptics had it been included.

At least this is some constructive criticism.

[Shepardus]

"Arcade-style" in this context would be referring to the "play through potentially all the stages of the game in a single sitting, but only if you're good enough to survive to the end, and go for score while you're at it," rather than the "insert a coin to play" part of arcades. Even if you modded out Battle Garegga's rank increase between games it would still have that gameplay structure which many shmup fans find essential to the genre.

And agreed on the online co-op thing, there are few methods more effective at convincing someone to play a game than to offer to play the game with them. Given the issue of latency compensation, however, I can see why many developers don't bother.

[DanMagoo]

"Arcade-style" in this context would be referring to the "play through potentially all the stages of the game in a single sitting, but only if you're good enough to survive to the end, and go for score while you're at it," rather than the "insert a coin to play" part of arcades. Even if you modded out Battle Garegga's rank increase between games it would still have that gameplay structure.

So how does Resogun differ?

My point re. Battle Garrega is that nobody plays it at home with the per-credit rank increase, which means they are stepping around a fundamental piece of the design.

[Shepardus]

I don't think anyone was saying Resogun isn't arcade-styled? I think Lilium was asking how it "reinvents shmups" in any new and convincing fashion since you said it makes a decent attempt at doing so, and those of us who haven't played the game aren't necessarily going to know why. What does Resogun do that shmup devs should be learning from?

[NTSC-J]

As far as I understand it, the only true arcade way to play Battle Garrega PCB is to leave the cab on and take the increase in rank with every new credit like a man, but who does that?

Arcade cabs with Garegga in Japan often have a customized hard reset switch to deal with this.

I'm still trying to figure out how Resogun evolved the genre. I played a healthy amount of it and enjoyed it well enough, but it's the same shit we've seen before. The multiplier is so crucial to score that it really needs to be beaten on one man and will require a pretty strict scoring route through each stage, so start memorizing. This is standard shmup stuff and not anything new.

It's a fine game, don't get me wrong, but it's cylindrical stage layout and particle effects "evolved" the genre in the way slugs are hermaphroditic and will sometimes chew each others' penises off after sex: a novel approach, but it's hard to see how this will bring them much success.

[Squire Grooktook]

Well how many arcade games have you ever played in an arcade that are on free play and have a training mode for all of the stages and bosses?

You're confusing bells and whistles with the core gameplay.

Arcade styled = games characterized by and designed around score counters, a 1cc philosophy, a one sitting play length, etc.

Training modes and free play don't matter because at the end of the day you're still playing for the 1cc, clearing it in one setting, etc.

Maybe if you make a shmup with 100+ free roaming levels with save spots in between, maybe that will attract a few casuals before its brushed off and forgotten like so many other mediocre indie games, but it won't be an arcade styled game and it won't have the same tension or excitement of running a gauntlet.

[DanMagoo]

Arcade cabs with Garegga in Japan often have a customized hard reset switch to deal with this.

That's mint.

So it's like even in the Japanese arcades they are like 'f*ck that, it's unfair'!

I'm still trying to figure out how Resogun evolved the genre. I played a healthy amount of it and enjoyed it well enough, but it's the same shit we've seen before. The multiplier is so crucial to score that it really needs to be beaten on one man and will require a pretty strict scoring route through each stage, so start memorizing. This is standard shmup stuff and not anything new.

Slug sex analogies aside, it's a new shmup that was a launch title for PS4, it has scoring mechanics that are just as arbitrary and onerous as any other shmup and it was popular and critically well received. Evolution happens in small steps (I didn’t say it revolutionized the genre) so yeah, I think does represent an evolutionary step.

[Shepardus]

Interesting, I wonder what it did to receive such success that other shmups didn't, or even if it didn't do anything differently at all and the difference came from how it was marketed (I'm guessing that may very well be the case, launch titles often have an advantage in this regard as new system owners are more willing to try something different for the sake of playing something on their new console).

And regarding Garegga, the rank also goes down over time as the attract-mode sequences play, so I guess arcade owners realized they would rather have players hard reset for every play than have them waste even more time waiting for the rank to go down through attract mode.

[Icarus]

Arcade cabs with Garegga in Japan often have a customized hard reset switch to deal with this.

That's mint.
So it's like even in the Japanese arcades they are like 'f*ck that, it's unfair'!

No. The reset button is to allow serious players to start on a consistent initial setting (rank, item drop order).
Leaving the rank to cycle is just to catch out the occasional casual that passes by after someone gets up.

… it has scoring mechanics that are just as arbitrary and onerous as any other shmup and it was popular and critically well received.

So was Geometry Wars, yet the games in that series did absolutely nothing to advance the genre. They had popularity at the time, but it didn't generate any kind of mass hysteria and sudden influx of people interested in playing more games in the genre.

Evolution happens in small steps (I didn’t say it revolutionized the genre) so yeah, I think does represent an evolutionary step.

Indeed it does, but since none of the major developers make STG any more, and there are only a handful of tiny developers left in it, I severely doubt you'll see anything groundbreaking outside of the doujin scene.

[DanMagoo]

No.

Erm... Yes! XD

Indeed it does, but since none of the major developers make STG any more, and there are only a handful of tiny developers left in it, I severely doubt you'll see anything groundbreaking outside of the doujin scene.

Fun times.

[Lord Satori]

I'm reminded of the Monty Python skit where they talking about how a simple contradiction doesn't constitute a proper argument and the other guy replied "Yes it does."

[Sinful]

EDIT: Actually fuck it, I don't care for this. I'm out.

Ah, you and Squire Grooktook were doing such a great job since my last post. I know it can be frustrating when you nobody gets you & I can also relate to leaving a topic like that entirely instead getting a headache sticking around. So sadly to me because I believe you know you stuff for this subject, your move to bail is the correct one.

[Squire Grooktook]

Slug sex analogies aside, it's a new shmup that was a launch title for PS4, it has scoring mechanics that are just as arbitrary and onerous as any other shmup and it was popular and critically well received. Evolution happens in small steps (I didn’t say it revolutionized the genre) so yeah, I think does represent an evolutionary step.

You still haven't explained what the evolution was. Crimzon Clover, Astebreed, the Gundemonium Trilogy, etc. have all been "popular and well received". Look at the reviews on Steam, or on any review site that isn't the typical "hurf durf I only play cod bullshit". Most of them generate positive words when spoken of with people who have heard of them and seem to have sold fine for their publishers too.

It seems to be that Resogun:

-Was a launch title
-Was easily available and actually had marketing
-Was pretty
-Had some bells and whistles like online co op.

which is why it was relatively well received. None of those things are evolution. Except maybe the co op.

Indeed it does, but since none of the major developers make STG any more, and there are only a handful of tiny developers left in it, I severely doubt you'll see anything groundbreaking outside of the doujin scene.

Fun times.

Indeed, probably because most doujin games have (with a few exceptions) outclassed and surpassed their old commercial predecessors by this point. The future is doujin, and that is a very bright future indeed.

It's almost hilarious to see people complain about the lack of big budget publishers not making shmups when a doujin shmup released LAST YEAR looked like this.

[DanMagoo]

You still haven't explained what the evolution was. Crimzon Clover, Astebreed, the Gundemonium Trilogy, etc. have all been "popular and well received". Look at the reviews on Steam, or on any review site that isn't the typical "hurf durf I only play cod bullshit". Most of them generate positive words when spoken of with people who have heard of them and seem to have sold fine for their publishers too.

It seems to be that Resogun:

-Was a launch title
-Was easily available and actually had marketing
-Was pretty
-Had some bells and whistles like online co op.

which is why it was relatively well received. None of those things are evolution. Except maybe the co op.

OK, before I answer then, what DO you consider to have been an evolution of the genre? Just so I know we're on the same page...

[qmish]

Fact is these games are not arcade style games once they come home.

What do you mean by arcade style then? Hope you're not propoganding going back to era when the only way to play gorgeous games is to spent your fortune until you git gud or "F that, i m out of this".

[trap15]

[DanMagoo]

[trap15]

Going straight to the virgin jokes, super class. You literally just did exactly what my mocking cartoon illustrates people with your viewpoint do :V

[DanMagoo]

Going straight to the virgin jokes, super class. You literally just did exactly what my mocking cartoon illustrates people with your viewpoint do :V

Did I touch a nerve sweet pea?

[trap15]

Not really. You just strike me as an imbecile with no wit nor tact.

[Kaiser]

Not really. You just strike me as an imbecile with no wit nor tact.

Also only a faggot would post a virgin joke MACRO image AS A RESPONSE TO ANYTHING, so he has no wit, no tact and for sure, he doesn't have the genitals. Go back to square one DanMagoo and start thinking again if you have the brain that is.