DOA series creator: "Hardcore players killed shmups"

[DanMagoo]

Basically, for the player interested in playing shmups at a decent to high level or above, the shmups available right now should last you decades. I don't have any need for any new ones so yes, indeed screw that scene if all they want is new and flashy stuff to drool at until the novelty wears off, sorry.

Honestly, this is such a sad load of bollocks.

On behalf of everyone who does want the scene to survive and be renewed, screw you if you think like that.

[Squire Grooktook]

I've asked this question before to many people before in this thread and in others: How do you expect a 30 minute game to sell for full price to modern gamers? How do you intend to sell them to a large number of modern gamers?

But they are not 30 minute games are they? They are games that can take just as long to 1CC (let alone perfect) as an adventure game or RPG.

But the thing is, people your talking about don't care about that. In fact that makes it even worse. "I have to replay the same content over and over again? That's the most boring thing ever!"

I agree to an extent that there are things that can be done to expand the niche, but you're talking about big budget "premium shmups" which is simply not going to happen. Ever. Shmups haven't been associated with the word "big budget" or "premium" for nearly 20 years now and they will never be again. They will always be a niche. They don't have to be dead (and they're not even close right now, we got like 3-4 top notch titles last year) but they're always gonna be niche.

[SuperSoaker360]

While we're at it, let's also add in cutscenes, quick-time events, and versus multiplayer.

You know what? Why the fuck not? Let's make just make the genre multiplayer only. Nobody ever plays single player these days anyway.

[Icarus]

But they are not 30 minute games are they? They are games that can take just as long to 1CC (let alone perfect) as an adventure game or RPG. The problem is that this is not sufficiently well explained to potential players, and there is very little content in the console releases that encourages people to develop the puzzle-solving mindset that can keep you coming back .

The problem is, the average gamer won't be coming back. A lot of gamers nowadays will buy a game, play through it once to clear, maybe play it again to get all the trophies/achievements, then sell it and move on. Games developers know that, and intentionally build in arbitrary filler and ridiculous goals in order to pad out their games - how many games are released nowadays with marketing blurb similar to "this has 200hrs of content!"? (And fine print stating that approximately a third of that time count is spent running from A to B.).

Also, the games that tend to do very well in the market are ones with some kind of sandbox (e.g. GTA, Elite Dangerous) or a decent multiplayer mode (e.g. CoD, versus fighting games, MOBAs, MMOs). STG games won't ever have either of those two things.

One thing that some recent 2D fighting games have done well is to include a fully featured ‘challenges’ mode. Players are encouraged to develop skills in small packages, working their way up to performing some of the most high level techniques in the game. Street Fighter 4, KOF XIII, BlazBlue and Guilty Gear all have this.
Why could this not be implemented in future console releases of shmups? Not just a training mode with level select, but a new mode with formal short challenges and rewards for completing each one (unlockable content etc.) The idea would not be to drop the difficulty, but to help train new players to tackle the more difficult sections of the main game.

Dodonpachi Saidaioujou tried that. While it was a fun diversion, I don't recall many people replaying it after they cleared some/most/all of the challenges. As someone who likes to play these games thoroughly, I personally didn't even give it a second glance once I got settled into X360 Mode.

[Lilium]

let's also add in cutscenes, quick-time events,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Ye5QpOdvI

Honestly, this is such a sad load of bollocks.

Right, well I do want to see the scene live on. Just not in the form of people who're only interested as long as there's new stuff every year.

(And fine print stating that approximately a third of that time count is spent running from A to B.).

Don't forget 50% of the time is samey content copy-pasted and slightly rearranged ad infinitum. Seriously lol, those 200 hour tags are so stupid lol

[Immryr]

Someone should make a rogue like shmup with RPG elements.... Haha

[qmish]

Why could this not be implemented in future console releases of shmups? Not just a training mode with level select, but a new mode with formal short challenges and rewards for completing each one (unlockable content etc.)

Revolver360 Re:Actor has a nice bag of mini-missions.

Someone should make a rogue like shmup with RPG elements.... Haha

Syvalion 2?

[Icarus]

Someone should make a rogue like shmup with RPG elements.... Haha

Somebody already tried that, as well.
https://www.gangsofspace.com/en

[Doctor Butler]

Itoigawa is sensationalizing the subject. There will always be an audience for these kinds of games, but that audience will always be relatively small. Shooting games will never reach mass-appeal like they did years ago, but they're too well-established to ever completely vanish.

Someone should make a rogue like shmup with RPG elements.... Haha

That's not a terrible idea.

In addition to a proper arcade-mode, you create a seperate "RPG mode", with randomly generated caravan-waves, instead of random battles, and persistent level grinding, to create the illusion of longevity that sells games nowadays.

Nobody ever plays single player these days anyway.

Actually, shmups are the only single-player games I play anymore, lol.

[BryanM]

Also, the games that tend to do very well in the market are ones with some kind of sandbox (e.g. GTA, Elite Dangerous) or a decent multiplayer mode (e.g. CoD, versus fighting games, MOBAs, MMOs). STG games won't ever have either of those two things.

Eh, things like Gauntlet or platformers can be sandboxy. GTA is just 50/50 free roam driving/shooting people.. 50/50 shoot upping/Blaster Mastering can work fine. Never be AAA, but still just fine.

Realm of the Mad God is an example of a (mediocre, at least the bullet pattern part) multiplayer shooter. Personally I'd love to make a local multiplayer phone game that's Robotron meets Gauntlet meets Diablo, with a gorehouse theme. I'd love lots of things that don't exist.

[Shepardus]

Anyone else feel like this thread is going in circles?

Much of what's referred to nowadays as the "mainstream audience" is simply uninterested in what shmups have to offer, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. You could make concessions to "fix" the problems of difficulty, length, focus on self-improvement over leveling up a character, etc., but what you're most likely left with by then would hardly qualify as a shmup, and even if it were successful it wouldn't do anything to promote the ideals we here appreciate in shmups, defeating the purpose in trying to make a shmup "mainstream" in the way that CoD, GTA, or <insert flavor of the month mobile game title> is. Any effort to expand the reach of the genre should recognize that it's inherently a niche genre in today's market and shouldn't get caught up in thinking too much about people who have next to no chance of being interested.

That doesn't mean nothing can be done to attract fresh blood, or that the genre is doomed to die (at least there will always be doujin games). I just think the way to attract and keep the interest of those open-minded to give shmups a shot lies not in changing the gameplay itself, but rather by doing a better job of teaching newcomers within the game itself how they should be thinking about the game and encouraging them to strive for improvement, whether that be through achievements, extended tutorials, stats-tracking systems, alternate game modes, or something else entirely.

[BIL]

First the reincarnation of DTP, and now the nearly as legendary "why shumps niche" thread - it's been a sterling few weeks

NOW BUST SKY BOY OUTTA OT JAIL

[Squire Grooktook]

Realm of the Mad God is an example of a (mediocre, at least the bullet pattern part) multiplayer shooter.

From what I played of it, it was pretty mediocre in nearly every aspect.

[DanMagoo]

That doesn't mean nothing can be done to attract fresh blood, or that the genre is doomed to die (at least there will always be doujin games). I just think the way to attract and keep the interest of those open-minded to give shmups a shot lies not in changing the gameplay itself, but rather by doing a better job of teaching newcomers within the game itself how they should be thinking about the game and encouraging them to strive for improvement, whether that be through achievements, extended tutorials, stats-tracking systems, alternate game modes, or something else entirely.

Agree, and this is where I think better organised streaming on Twitch and generating good quality instructional video content on YouTube would help.

[trap15]

Go ahead and do it. Have fun.

[Skykid]

Go ahead and do it. Have fun.

Hiiii guys, this is Chad from MahaloVideoGames and today I'm going to do a how to play for Goowang on Xbo-

Oh shoot, I just died.

[Xyga]

Modernize/change/adapt shmups for younger audiences ? No. Never.

Join the C.R.A.P ! Conservative Retrogamer Assholes Party.

[DanMagoo]

Modernize/change/adapt shmups for younger audiences ? No. Never.

Join the C.R.A.P ! Conservative Retrogamer Assholes Party.

C.R.A.P. campaign slogan:

"No We Can't!"

"It was a creed written into the founding documents that declared the destiny of a genre: No We Can't."

Say it loud: Shmups dead and I'm proud.

[SuperSoaker360]

Shmups dead

But they aren't

[Lilium]

Yeah, it's not dead. There are still new releases being made and there's some very good doujin releases being made not to forget about very decent Touhou clones that sometimes really push the envelope in terms of pattern creativity, at least in my opinion.

That being said though, I would be more proud to see the genre die than to be mutilated and twisted into something that would cause an average mainstream gamer to jump in on a 30 minute game. Call us conservative retro gamers all you want, I am not about conservative, I'm about quality. New ideas are welcome if they are good but simply catering to the masses is the opposite of that.

I'll try this again. How would you reinvent shmups. Let's hear some answers oh and by all means;

Go ahead and do it. Have fun.

[Cagar]

Here's hoping that the "shmups are dead!! xD" meme would stop already.
"..but they are!" is not a funny one either.










shmup devs are dead though.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Is there any exclusively co-op multiplayer game that any of you would call "mainstream" in this day and age?
Or, while we're at it, has exclusively co-operative multiplayer ever found many players online?

[DanMagoo]

I'll try this again. How would you reinvent shmups.

Resogun made a decent attempt at it.

[Shepardus]

Is there any exclusively co-op multiplayer game that any of you would call "mainstream" in this day and age?
Or, while we're at it, has exclusively co-operative multiplayer ever found many players online?

It's not exclusively co-op, but how about Left 4 Dead?

[Lilium]

I'll try this again. How would you reinvent shmups.

Resogun made a decent attempt at it.

By doing what exactly?

I haven't played it, I passed on it after seeing unimpressive gameplay videos I must admit. So what exactly does it do?
It's received good reviews. Like Sine Mora did.

[Blinge]

Or, while we're at it, has exclusively co-operative multiplayer ever found many players online?

Payday: The Heist and #2. very popular.
Borderlands I guess? the vs mode may aswell not exist. Killing Floor.

[Squire Grooktook]

Or, while we're at it, has exclusively co-operative multiplayer ever found many players online?

Payday: The Heist and #2. very popular.
Borderlands I guess? the vs mode may aswell not exist. Killing Floor.

Any mmo or Diable clone ever.

[Obiwanshinobi]

What Diablo clone multiplayer was exclusively co-op online? Diablo III at launch (before the patch)? Diablo's been PvsP since 1.
I guess Left 4 Dead is where it was at (never played it myself, but then again, I don't feel mainstream).

[Shepardus]

Torchlight 2 technically has PvP but only as a chat command that turns you hostile towards your party, no real "arena" mode except through mods.

[Ed Oscuro]

Is there any exclusively co-op multiplayer game that any of you would call "mainstream" in this day and age?
Or, while we're at it, has exclusively co-operative multiplayer ever found many players online?

It's not exclusively co-op, but how about Left 4 Dead?

Evolve seems to fit that same mold too.