The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[pokemon123]

why people seem to find daifukkatsu so easy(even when i'm using strong and know how hypers work) when I find it muuuuch harder than daioujou. The hitbox also feels much bigger to me.

if you're playing on mame it has no slowdown and a lot of input lag
otjherwise no idea

oh

[Obscura]

Ugh, the new version of Hecatoncheir in Crimzon Clover: World Ignition is so fucking dumb.

"Hey look, I have aimed shots that force you to make quick jumps to the edges to create gaps, but then my claws move around the sides at random so that sometimes you just die without there being anything you can do! Oh, and I sometimes move my lower claws THROUGH THE ONLY FUCKING GAPS of my last pattern, and you can't even see that this is happening and bomb because the claws are dark grey on a dark grey background!"

(Actually, I think that aside from the reduced number of lives and tate support, WI is a huge downgrade over the original doujin version in a lot of regards.)

[Shepardus]

Which attack are you talking about, and what mode? I can't think of any in Arcade Boost/Original that require you to make quick jumps to create gaps... If you're talking about Unlimited, though, then things are obviously a lot harder, though I'm still not sure what attack you're referring to.

[Obscura]

Original mode, third form. By that point, the constant stream of slow, red bullets is thick enough that you've got to misdirect it to create breaks, and the combination of that with the fast aimed streams means you have to go to the edge to misdirect them. Then, on the last attack, sometimes one of his claws will basically move to almost the middle of the screen and fill the gap in the overlapping purple spirals.

[Shepardus]

Hmm, I've never really thought much about how to misdirect those bullets, I usually just pay attention to avoiding the fast bullets and that manages to separate the slow bullets enough for me most of the time. If you move yourself over to one side before the pattern starts (immediately after defeating the second phase) and try to be conservative in your movements you should have enough room to dodge without having to get too close to the edge, at least not for any significant length of time. I've never had any issues with the arms before, but if you're having trouble with that you could also try keeping yourself pressed against the bottom of the screen, I'm pretty sure the arms don't reach quite that low (they stop just above the bottom).

I can't say much about the last attack since I usually have a break saved up by then and just cancel all the bullets into stars and finish it before it causes any trouble.

Maybe watching a replay would help? Here's one, I can also upload some of my own replay files if you want (though I'm not much of a scorer and have yet to 1cc the game on Arcade).

[Bananamatic]

Original mode, third form. By that point, the constant stream of slow, red bullets is thick enough that you've got to misdirect it to create breaks, and the combination of that with the fast aimed streams means you have to go to the edge to misdirect them. Then, on the last attack, sometimes one of his claws will basically move to almost the middle of the screen and fill the gap in the overlapping purple spirals.

it's aimed like any other attack, just move slower
also, more slow red bullets appear as you destroy more leg segments

the claws can end up near the middle in the final attack because the boss moves around, stay under his body and don't be at the very bottom, there's no way you can get hit by his claws there

[Obscura]

God, I wish CC:WI had some sort of "Novice Unlimited" or at least something between Novice and Arcade.

Both Novice modes were first attempt 1ccs with 5 lives left over. Arcade... I don't have a fucking chance. 16 hours, and over half of my credits end in stage 2, and I've seen the stage 3 boss exactly once (over 10 hours ago...), and I doubt I'll get any further; I just don't have the eye-hand coordination to make the kind of micro-dodges it wants me to. Not helped by the stupid fucking ship speed-up when in break mode.

[Shepardus]

Yeah, Novice feels even easier than most Touhou games' Easy mode, while all the Arcade modes feel at least as difficult as Hard mode on a Touhou game, maybe even Lunatic. I do wish there were something in between, but at least I'm finally getting to the point where a 1cc on Arcade seems realistic if I put some more practice into it so I don't mind the gap as much as I used to. At least the original doujin version occupies a nice place in between in terms of difficulty.

[ACSeraph]

I hope the creators of any game where you lose all your powerups at death are sent to a special ring of hell where they are forced to play their games with no powerups for all eternity.

[S_Fang]

I hope the creators of any game where you lose all your powerups at death are sent to a special ring of hell where they are forced to play their games with no powerups for all eternity.

THIS and a much more painful torture for the speed power-ups, which they make the game really obnoxious.

[ACSeraph]

Fuck Gradius seriously, I swear I only play this series out of spite for it. It's about as fun as pounding a nail into your dick

[Squire Grooktook]

Fuck Gradius seriously, I swear I only play this series out of spite for it. It's about as fun as pounding a nail into your dick

I've always been a fan of the environmental hazards and enemies. Ever try Gaiden? I never really felt like recoveries were that big a deal in it. Not a fan of checkpoints in general, I've always felt that returning breaks the flow.

IMO R-Type has much worse recoveries than Gradius too. People just don't realize it because they get the force and think "that's all I need" and don't realize how much easier everything is when you're actually fully equipped with bits, missiles, level 3 weapon, etc. Than they chalk up all their deaths to it being a memorizer and don't realize that some of the recoveries are just ridiculously, insanely hard memorized or not.

[Perikles]

I completely agree with Squire Grooktook. I needed to 1LC the first R-Type simply because the final stage is excruciatingly difficult without both of the bits while it is by far the easiest stage in the game if you happen to have those little buggers. On the other hand, I don't think that recoveries in Gradius games tend to be that difficult (first loop only, of course), with the prominent exception of Gradius III (Arcade, the SNES port is very forgiving in this regard). There are some rough checkpoints here and there (if you happen to die at the beginning or middle of the final stage of Gradius II you're in a less than favorable situation afterwards) but overall it's not a big issue. Also, you don't need to memorize much of anything in a Gradius game, most of the situations can be handled on the fly. I'm not a terribly dextrous players but I had never any problems in navigating through the high speed stages, for example.

[ACSeraph]

I honestly can't really stand to play R-Type for more than 10 minutes at a time. It's everything I hate from Gradius distilled with all of what I like removed. To me R-Type doesn't really feel like a shooter, even though it obviously is.

As for recovery in Gradius, I think it can be pretty god damn frustrating, though at least it's not totally impossible like it is in Darius II (and occasionally Darius 1). I do not at all find recovery fun, but in the later games and Salamander where you can at least keep your options I'm fine with it. My anti-recovery comment was actually from earlier in the week when I was playing Abadox. Recover is way more hellish there, but it is doable.

Anyhow more than anything else, what actually pisses me off in Gradius is the cheap shot deaths. I get what yopu are saying about low memorization, for the shooting segments thats true, with some dexterity you can just sort of go with the flow. But then some god damn wall or something suddenly crushes you without warning and you have to start the hellish recovery phase which often leads to having to start the game over entirely. I fucking hate that. I hate that. If the game kills me because it's straight up fucking hard, Gradius V style, I'm OK with that, but filling your otherwise easy game with unavoidable shenanigan bullshit like Salamander or Gradius II FC fills me with rage. The worse part is, that other than that bullshit, I absolutely love this series. It's like being in an abusive relationship.

[Perikles]

It depends on the definition of cheap shot, I suppose. I can think of one, maybe two instances in most Gradius games where there is a good chance of you getting killed by some unforeseen event (like the closing door in the final stage of the first game or the Crystal Core in Gradius II that comes from behind) but that's about it. Almost everything the programmers throw at you can theoretically be overcome on your first try, even though familiarity with the game helps out a lot (as is the case with every game). It's not all that classy to include those questionable elements at all, of course, but it's a non-issue from your second time onwards, especially considering that said cheap shots are completely static. You don't need to meticulously plan a route through a stage or make special preparations for a complex boss fight, it's just about knowing that you need to be careful in this particular spot. Sometimes this can be done even on the same credit, the final checkpoint in the first game being a perfect example for that.

I do, however, ostracize Gradius III for the cube rush alone – that's just criminal. I lost count how many credits I lost with no fault of my own.

[ACSeraph]

I dont think the average player is going to recover the final checkpoint of Gradius 1 on the first try. That takes some practice.

And there are way way more cheap shots than just those examples. Are they static? For sure. But a lot of it is so fast that the only way you'll survive it on the first run is if you just luckily happened to be in the right spot.

Just in Gradius II FC, you have fire pillars in stage 1 lifted from Salamader (thankfully its stage 1 so it's not quite as frustrating). In stage 2 you have the Skull fucking jump up at you; no way you'd be able to dodge it if you weren't already in a good position. You've got the speed rush near the end where the first set of blast doors are guaranteed to kill you if you don't fly through right when they show up on screen (which I'm sure most people don't on their first attempt). And in the final stage you have the floor and ceiling shooting out at you at light speed, no way your surviving that based on sight. Then right after you've got the walls closing completely, but luckily that one happens at a more reasonable speed.

All of that shit, when it kills you, is a cheap shot in a game where death for the most part means starting over until you're very practiced up on the recoveries. I just don't appreciate it. A hard game that I have to play hundreds of credits in because its just plain hard is one thing, but an easy game where I have to restart at each new bullshit cheapshot until I learn them all is just not enjoyable. I get what you're saying, that once you've seen it once you're golden. But I don't want to have my blind runs all robbed from me by bullshit; makes me not want to play your fucking game at all. It would all be a lot more tolerable if there was at least a little warning that suggested some bullshit was coming.

Anyhow, the series is fun, but only after you've paid your bullshit toll and memorized the stupid shit. It's a sad sad tradition of this series that should have been thrown out early on.

[mamboFoxtrot]

Haha, I was just thinking of bitching about R-Type checkpoints. Or, more specifically, the power-downs.

When I played Super R-Type as a kid, I always did Novice mode. The first time that I tried it on another difficulty, I was surprised to find out that you don't just always have a Force Pod. Having now played some of R-Type I & II via Dimensions and R-Type Delta, I honestly don't get why that's the norm. I mean, the pod is the main hook of the game, and the whole thing is pretty much designed around it.

My favorite checkpoints are the ones where you have to deal with a bunch of enemies, with some coming from behind, and THEN you get a Force Pod! What a bunch of sadistic fucks...

[LordHypnos]

I feel like checkpoints don't even contribute that much to "gradius syndrome." It still sucks in Life Force / Salamander (NES), even without the checkpoints, because you're really pretty much fucked within a short stretch of almost anywhere where you could die, because it takes like a billion power ups just to get the basic adequate speed + 1 option + missile. Cool weapon system, for sure, but I wish your default power / speed was a little less shitty (see V . V as an example of this). Also, I totally agree that speed up powerups are the worst and I'm glad they're long gone from shmupdom.

Then again, I haven't put all that much time into Life Force, yet, and it probably gets less frustrating, so take this with a grain of salt.

[ACSeraph]

Life Force is the same as Gradius II in that you probly won't die at all unless some bullshit you werent prepared for like a fire pillar whacks you. Once it's memorized you won't even need to worry about the recovery. But I see what you are saying. Actually I think you are even more fucked without checkpoints if you end up losing all your options. The one thing about the checkpoints is there tends to be a carrier or two in all of them to help you deal with whats coming, though it's generally not helpful enough for the average player to survive anyhow. It's kind of a weird design, since the people most likely to pull off a recovery are the people least likely to need to recover in the first place.

The lack of checkpoints is well implemented in the arcade version of Salamander though, since it doesn't use the gradius powerup system you tend to recovery pretty fast. No extends though, so that can make things rough.

[pegboy]

Life Force is the same as Gradius II in that you probly won't die at all unless some bullshit you werent prepared for like a fire pillar whacks you. Once it's memorized you won't even need to worry about the recovery. But I see what you are saying. Actually I think you are even more fucked without checkpoints if you end up losing all your options. The one thing about the checkpoints is there tends to be a carrier or two in all of them to help you deal with whats coming, though it's generally not helpful enough for the average player to survive anyhow. It's kind of a weird design, since the people most likely to pull off a recovery are the people least likely to need to recover in the first place.

The lack of checkpoints is well implemented in the arcade version of Salamander though, since it doesn't use the gradius powerup system you tend to recovery pretty fast. No extends though, so that can make things rough.

I actually think Salamander is harder to recover in than Gradius, at least for the arcade versions. Salamander chain deaths are hard to avoid because you move so god damn slow, and your invulnerability after death goes away very fast. That combined with no extends makes it a harder game overall. And that fucking level 4 boss...way harder than anything in Gradius.

For the NES games I'd rank Gradius > Gradius II > Life Force/Salamander.

For the arcade games I'd say Gradius II > Salamander > Gradius

[ACSeraph]

Interesting, I actually found the Gradius AC clear much harder than Salamander AC. Salamander just has a lot of bullshit in it, but once you learn it all it's not very hard to consistently pull off a route. Gradius really pushes your ability to react in the moment and adjust your strategy on the fly, especially that last stage.

Same with recovery, I find Gradius harder (depending on the spot of course) but I think it depends on just where it is you died in Salamander. Seems like you are way more fucked in the tate stages, as it feels like your ship moves a lot slower there at default speed. Good fuckin' luck beating the second boss without a speed powerup. But Lord British is just so much more powerful than Vic Viper; with just a speed up and double missiles you can wing it pretty well, which isn't so easily done in Gradius.

[pegboy]

To be honest I didn't even realize there was a difference between Vic Viper and Lord British. I've always just played as the Vic Viper. I think perhaps I've just played Gradius a lot more than Salamander. I will say that the stage 4 boss is harder than anything in Gradius, at least if you don't use the bug/trick where he doesn't attack at all. I prefer not to use that, as it significantly lowers the challenge of the game. That boss alone makes the game vastly harder than anything in Gradius, but that's just my opinion.

Of course dying on stage 4 in Gradius is pretty much a game over. That and stage 7. But I've played that on the highest difficulty on the PS1, which has suicide bullets and shit even on loop 1. I'd actually say that was probably harder than the highest difficulty of Salamander even with wait turned off. But I'm just talking about the PS ports, where they have higher difficulty than the original arcade game. Well now I'm just rambling. Anyway, both games take some time to figure everything out, I just put Salamander on a higher level mostly because of the broken stage 4 boss. Without that, I'd say Gradius is harder.

I invested pretty much an entire year into the Gradius/Salamander series and if I had to rank them all based on difficulty it would go something like this:

Gradius III (arcade) > Salamander 2 (2 Loops/ALL) > Gradius IV > Gradius V > Gradius II (Arcade) > Gradius Gaiden > Salamander 2 (1 Loop) > Salamander (Arcade) > Gradius I (Arcade) > Gradius III (SNES) > Life Force (Japan Arcade) > Gradius (NES) > Gradius II (NES) > Salamander/Life Force (NES)

[Squire Grooktook]

That's the first time I've seen someone put Salamander 2 over Gradius IV or V.

[pegboy]

That's the first time I've seen someone put Salamander 2 over Gradius IV or V.

That's a 2-ALL in Salamander 2. The second loop is fucking crazy.

[ACSeraph]

Your list seems to go pretty well in hand with my own experience with the series. I've cleared everything in the bottom half (except gradius 3, mostly due to apathy) but nothing in the upper. Guess that means I ought to go for Salamander 2 loop 1 next then.

[pegboy]

I'd highly, HIGHLY recommend Gradius Gaiden and Gradius V, those are by far the best 2 games in the entire series. Most of the "Gradius syndrome" crap is alleviated in those games. Salamander 2 is also pretty good, but it also has it's fair amount of haters. I think Gaiden and V are pretty much universally recognized as the best in the series, but it's hard for me to pick a true #1 out of those games.

I still to this day have not played a single credit of arcade Gradius III or IV after getting the clears lol. Those games are fucking torture to the highest degree. At least with IV you stand a chance of recovering though, with III, not so much outside of 2 or 3 checkpoints in the game.

[ACSeraph]

I doubt I'll ever 1cc III or IV arcade, I really hate them. As for Gaiden, I don't actually have it on PS1, only on the PSP collection, so I've gotta wait on that one for a bit. And V, well, I think V is amazing, but it's just straight up too hard for me. I've cleared a lot of stuff, but Gradius V is just too long and extreme. A boss rush in stage 2? I can't even imagine what hell is going to await me in the later stages. Were I going to do it, what would you recommend as the absolute easiest clear? I assume a custom ship would be best, what weapon set do you recommend for survival?

[Blinge]

If I can do it, you can dude =]

Endurance is the main thing I guess, but it's more knowing what to do in each situation; the actual execution isn't as hard as probably most of the things i've experienced in the Darius series.

[pegboy]

How much have you played V? What types and setups were you using?

I've spent a MASSIVE amount of time on the game, several months of obsessively playing the game for hours and hours (at least 250 if not more). If you check out my sig, I have links to several videos of full runs using each type in Gradius V, all of them are at least 2 loop or more cleared.

I also have a couple weapon edit run using the E-Laser and freeze options, which I believe to be the strongest setup in the game. E-Laser will annihilate bosses in quick order. This is one of the very few games where I'd actually proclaim myself to be an expert, and I try to avoid saying things like that because I don't want to sound like an arrogant asshole. Anything I accomplished in this game was because of perseverance and obsessive practicing, not innate skill.

[Blinge]

Haha that's just gonna scare him away!