DOA series creator: "Hardcore players killed shmups"

[DanMagoo]

Over on the excellent Orochinagi fighting games site, they have just published an interview by Dead Or Alive player Emperor Cow with the series' creator Tomonobu Itagaki:

http://www.orochinagi.com/2015/01/emper ... bu-itagaki

In the interview Itagaki touches on the fate of shmups:

Itagaki: Hey, Do you know why the 2D shooting game genre kept shrinking until it eventually disappeared? A player like you would know why. It’s basically the same situation.

Cow: I suppose it’s because it was getting more and more aimed towards hardcore players.

Itagaki: Exactly. The fighting game genre is at risk of facing the same dilemma. Of course, there is a market for hardcore players.

This is a candid interview with a well known Japanese game designer. Do you think his assessment is fair?

Also as a tangent, do people share the view that fighting games could be heading for a fate similar to shmups, because of the high technical barriers facing new players?

[system11]

Been saying this for years, about both genres.

Of course the real statement is that 'only serving hardcore players killed shmups'. Players can ask for whatever they like, you don't /have/ to give it to them. Even at a superficial level DOA is starting to suffer this - counter windows are tiny and countering mid kick/punch is a different move. This was a direct result of players saying it was 'too easy', end result is counters are a waste of time unless you're a good player (also the last person who needs them).

[Despatche]

He's absolutely right. Well, really, it's "developers killed shmups by creating the hardcore/casual divide". Developers talk only to the "hardcore" or the "casual", they don't care about anyone else. It is not even an idea to nearly all developers that these two groups could actually be the same, just "programmed" differently.

The thing is that part of this is perception as well. You can probably take the same crazy Mushihimesama Futari Ultra Mode and sell it to a "casual" by actually teaching them the things the "hardcore" take for granted: why learning to play a game skillfully is so great at all, and why learning to play a single-player game skillfully is a lot like learning to play a multiplayer game skillfully. The rise of speedrunning has been a HUGE help for #2, seriously. To a lesser extent, this fighting game "revival" has helped with #1, but developers only want to talk to the "hardcore" there, so it's very likely that the genre will go right back down the dark road it did in the early 2000s (though more recently I want to blame the drama between SNK and Aruze for part of that).

Futari also has things like Original Mode and Maniac Mode anyway; what needs to be done is to encourage the player that yes, they probably can play those crazy hard modes just as well as they can play Original right now.

There are a lot of things that really need to go. "Continues" and the entire "1CC mindset" bullshit needs to go, because both the "hardcore" and the "casual" completely misunderstand what they're for (they are not some optional component, they are the only way playing short and hard games at all makes any sense), and that hurts their perception of the games. In their place, the art of learning needs to be thrown into the player's face, because being able to say "mindless shoot em up" is the biggest problem in this genre right now. The various modes really need to be pressed hard, and there needs to be a better sense of balance throughout an entire work (not necessarily just what a "hardcore" player thinks "good stage design" means). And of course, "hardcore" and "casual" need to go; people need to be talked to like they're one big group of "people who want to play your game" that they can opt in and out of, instead of the developer forcing them into groups.

[broken harbour]

I agree.

Catering to the hardcore players at the expense of pick-up-and-play mechanics will always result in casual players abandoning a franchise.

I think that's why Street Fighter 4 was so popular, it has complicated mechanics to satisfy hardcore players, but it's easy enough to get into that you don't have to be at the top 1% of players to get enjoyment out of it.

I've never understood why some people in the video game community disregard a game because it's easy. A game should have difficulty settings. "Easy" should be unchallenging, great for beginners. "Hard" should be difficult and challenging, to reward those with a masochistic streak.

[Despatche]

That's another problem though: always trying to paint the "hardcore" as "masochistic", as if there's some sick fetish that needs to be catered to. That's ridiculous... you'd never hear anyone say chess or whatever is "masochistic". Playing video games for skill needs to be treated like any other game of skill: you make a mistake, you get punished appropriately. There's nothing "masochistic" about that. And I'll tell you what, chess is not a "pick up and play" game...

The thing is that... people think games are "experiences", as in movies. They're an entirely different kind of experience that's somewhere between actually getting engrossed in a movie (which not a lot of people (or movies) do anyway) and playing a game like chess skillfully, as obvious as that statement is ("video" "game").

[broken harbour]

Let me rephrase that.

What I meant was that if the fun of a game is buried behind a wall of extreme difficulty and/or overly complicated mechanics, expect the audience to be small, most modern gamers aren't into that.

Some games excel at sucking you in with easy to understand mechanics, but then open up to really complicated or difficult stuff as you go deeper, see Street Fighter 4 as an example.

Mushi Futari and Eschatos are great examples of shmups that are easy to get into with novice modes that are relatively easy, but crank the difficulty up and they'll make you sweat.
The average age of gamers has gotten older over the years, and at 33, I find I don't really have as much time as I would like, so I'm not going to put a year into learning one game, but I'll gladly play Mushi Futari on Novice Ultra mode w/autobombs because its still fun and makes me feel badass, even if I'm not.

[Captain]

We need this difficulty scaling/settings in every shmup:

-Training - on any non-arcade shmup, ability to practice any part of the game at any difficulty at will.
-e̶a̶s̶y̶ novice, for players new to shmups who want to get a feel of the mechanics and practice.
-n̶o̶r̶m̶a̶l̶ experienced, for players who have mastered the game enough to know what they're doing at all times.
-h̶a̶r̶d̶ master (think about the meaning of master for a second), for players who have enough experience for a constant challenge while maintaining fun.
-v̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶h̶a̶r̶d̶ elite, for players who have enough experience to fully utilize game mechanics for survival and scoring.
-o̶r̶i̶g̶i̶n̶a̶l̶ ̶d̶i̶f̶f̶i̶c̶u̶l̶t̶y̶ ̶n̶a̶m̶e̶ expert/hardcore/professional/elitist prick, for players who are ready to fully use, and fully abuse everything the game gives them, taking it to the limit.


Wishful thinking, eh.... Too bad shmups don't have a difficulty standard as a whole.

[BulletMagnet]

While the notion is undoubtedly true to a large extent, I suspect that any developer from the "lean years" would probably submit that, for quite some time, "hardcore" players were just about the only ones they had, and management was likely on their backs to cater more and more to them ("forget approachability, we don't have the development time or budget for that") without much regard for the "long game", to the extent it even existed. Moreover, even those who have since made significant steps to return to the "big tent" development mentality have seen disappointing results (Cave being the most visible example), so I'd be inclined to wonder if the "hardcores only" era was in the end merely a delay of the inevitable...though I suppose someone more familiar with the business end of the equation would probably have to rule on that.

[Despatche]

Oh, of course, broken harbour. Arcade games like to "hide" things that aren't even secrets, and that just goes too far. Basic mechanics of the game should be made very clear to the player.

But the thing is that these games are perfect for people with little time. That's yet another misconception that needs to go, and it's one that isn't even at all recognized in, say, Japan, where arcade games are almost more for the salarymen than for the younger players. You might spend "a year" learning to play a shmup well, but you only need to spend an hour a day at most to actually play. Console genres, despite being longer games with the ability to save, would ironically prefer you to sit down for hours upon hours.

BulletMagnet, the problem is that developers made the "hardcore". CAVE did absolutely fuck all with trying to get "casuals" to play their games; Mushi and Futari, and the later Novice modes, are the only "steps" they've even dared to take, and they completely refused to advertise them properly. The people who stumble upon these game modes do so almost randomly.

Captain, you don't want to overdo it with difficulty modes. Oh, and... the second to last and the last suggestions there are exactly the same, really...

[Bananamatic]

The rise of speedrunning has been a HUGE help for #2, seriously

it's popular only as a spectator thing because you can watch your favourite games you played in your childhood or still play casually get broken, hardly anyone actually speedruns

[Despatche]

Um... the fact that you have so many spectators means you have a really high chance of someone deciding to try and do it themselves (actual speedrunners have BALLOONED since this "spectator era" started), especially considering that the speedrunning community is actually pretty helpful as far as guides go!

And even if that weren't the case, having a "hardcore" group of players that people just like to watch is a totally desireable scenario.

[BulletMagnet]

Mushi and Futari, and the later Novice modes, are the only "steps" they've even dared to take, and they completely refused to advertise them properly. The people who stumble upon these game modes do so almost randomly.

I'd say they did a bit more than that; Deathsmiles comes most immediately to mind, and I'd probably put the first Espgaluda and DFK on the list too, not to mention the reduced-difficulty smartphone ports (and their non-shmup offshoots, if you want to include "gateway" releases).

In any event, has any other more-or-less comparable developer seen much more success than they ever did in this area?

[Obscura]

Futari also has things like Original Mode and Maniac Mode anyway; what needs to be done is to encourage the player that yes, they probably can play those crazy hard modes just as well as they can play Original right now.

Uh... no. Contrary to what a lot of people like to believe, talent is a thing that actually exists; people have innate skill-sets; "tabula rasa" is a total myth. There's been tons of research done on this, and it turns out that the whole "anyone can become an expert with 10,000 hours!" thing is complete crap; how much benefit people get from practicing a task is always directly proportional to how good they are at it on their first attempt. Most people could spend a lifetime trying to play Futari Ultra/Pachi second loops/etc, and get exactly nowhere.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think it's mostly bullshit with a grain of truth.

Shmups have been "dying" for a decade now because they are skill based single player games, which a lot of people just don't get or enjoy. Neither shmups nor fighting games "died" or approached "dying" because they were catering to a particular audience too much. Fighting games briefly became more niche because arcades died and no online play existed to fill the void, so unless you were part of the slim minority of players who lived near to an active arcade or who was willing to drive around to meets, you had no options for play.

Developers calling for fighting games to become more approachable is mostly garbage. Fighting games are, and always have been, easy to pick up and play, and there will always be room for competitive games on the market. The fact of the matter is, you can be infinitely deep and very approachable at the same time, which is what most shmups and fighting games are. Shmups just don't have the same market as fighters.

That being said, I think shmups don't have to be as niche as they are. They've become less diverse, emphasizing danmaku a bit too much, have become difficult to purchase (often requiring importing), and have not put serious effort into figuring out how to telegraph the 1cc or scoreplay methedology ("just give em unlimited credits instead"). I think there are a lot of things that shmups can do to increase genre awareness, especially now that digital distribution is becoming a thing, but they do need to put some effort in. That being said, it will probably take a while for the playerbase to increase if it ever does. Shmups just might not be the games for this generation.

Futari also has things like Original Mode and Maniac Mode anyway; what needs to be done is to encourage the player that yes, they probably can play those crazy hard modes just as well as they can play Original right now.

Uh... no. Contrary to what a lot of people like to believe, talent is a thing that actually exists; people have innate skill-sets; "tabula rasa" is a total myth. There's been tons of research done on this, and it turns out that the whole "anyone can become an expert with 10,000 hours!" thing is complete crap; how much benefit people get from practicing a task is always directly proportional to how good they are at it on their first attempt. Most people could spend a lifetime trying to play Futari Ultra/Pachi second loops/etc, and get exactly nowhere.

There are innate skills for this genre but they can be improved by practice to some degree. I think your wrong in that anyone could probably 2-all ddp, as such a task is not quite outside the realm of improvement, but maybe not everyone could wr.

[broken harbour]

Oh, of course, broken harbour. Arcade games like to "hide" things that aren't even secrets, and that just goes too far. Basic mechanics of the game should be made very clear to the player.

But the thing is that these games are perfect for people with little time. That's yet another misconception that needs to go, and it's one that isn't even at all recognized in, say, Japan, where arcade games are almost more for the salarymen than for the younger players. You might spend "a year" learning to play a shmup well, but you only need to spend an hour a day at most to actually play. Console genres, despite being longer games with the ability to save, would ironically prefer you to sit down for hours upon hours.

I agree, that's one thing I love about shmups and fighting games both is that they are perfect for when you have a half hour to kill and want to get your blood pumping. However, it doesn't appear that way on the surface, hence 99% of gamers will overlook them. Also yes I agree Cave did not advertise properly, or made weird decisions to region lock half their games forcing fans to buy imported consoles, etc...

Video games to many, are wish/fantasy fulfillment. I may be a pathetic office dweller that lives a quiet life, but in video games I can be Solid Snake, Cloud, Akuma, etc... and feel like a badass. And I think that's what the majority of gamers out there want. Most gamers don't want to be punished right out of the gate with an impenetrable wall of complexity and difficulty, and alot of shmups are kind of bad at that. It's the reason DDP DOJ is probably my least favorite Cave game, it's just so punishing right from the start.

Note that I said 'most' gamers, obviously not referring to most people here.

[Shepardus]

But the thing is that these games are perfect for people with little time. That's yet another misconception that needs to go, and it's one that isn't even at all recognized in, say, Japan, where arcade games are almost more for the salarymen than for the younger players. You might spend "a year" learning to play a shmup well, but you only need to spend an hour a day at most to actually play. Console genres, despite being longer games with the ability to save, would ironically prefer you to sit down for hours upon hours.

Definitely, I see people complain all the time about how much time a game of Dota or League of Legends can take and I can't help but think that shmups might fit really well in their life if they would only give it a real chance.

From what I understand the decline of arcades was a big factor in losing a lot of the audience of shmups outside of the most hardcore, but since then developers of shmups haven't really done as much to regain that potential audience as they perhaps could have with the rise of the internet as a pseudo-replacement of the arcade. By the time I started playing shmups a couple years ago, I think anybody who would watch me play shmups on my laptop during lunch break at high school saw it as either "that weird Japanese thing" (Touhou) or "that retro thing" (Cho Ren Sha or anything else), and any comments they had to make about the games revolved around its difficulty. I still find it hard to explain to people that shmups have fun and interesting qualities outside its difficulty or nostalgia value, that the raw difficulty isn't really the one and only point, and that just because it "doesn't look as hard as Touhou" doesn't mean it's of inferior value. And these people aren't really "casual" gamers either, I would consider them plenty hardcore in everything except shmups. These are people who certainly understand the reward of improving oneself and mastering a game (granted, mostly in a multiplayer context), but haven't connected that thinking to shmups.

I believe there is an audience, potentially even a large audience, of such people, who would enjoy shmups beyond just a visceral "look at all these explosions" experience (which plenty of non-shmup games offer nowadays), but I haven't seen shmups really teach the way of thinking, as opposed to simply acknowledging the existence of people outside the already-existing audience. I've said before that shmups require a level of self-motivation to understand, and that's always going to be true, but perhaps more can be done to encourage this self-motivation instead of relying on this self-motivation to already be there. There are more options out there now besides "skill-based games," but plenty of people still play skill-based games and pride themselves on their (likely imaginary) skills, it's just that relatively few of them are single-player games and even fewer are shmups.

[Despatche]

Futari also has things like Original Mode and Maniac Mode anyway; what needs to be done is to encourage the player that yes, they probably can play those crazy hard modes just as well as they can play Original right now.

Uh... no. Contrary to what a lot of people like to believe, talent is a thing that actually exists; people have innate skill-sets; "tabula rasa" is a total myth. There's been tons of research done on this, and it turns out that the whole "anyone can become an expert with 10,000 hours!" thing is complete crap; how much benefit people get from practicing a task is always directly proportional to how good they are at it on their first attempt. Most people could spend a lifetime trying to play Futari Ultra/Pachi second loops/etc, and get exactly nowhere.

Yes, talent is important. No, talent is not nearly as important as people make it out to be.

Most of those people you describe would get exactly nowhere because they would refuse to pay attention to anything when they play. If "talent" means "the ability to learn something from your experiences", then not having it means you're straight up hopeless for a lot of things in life and you probably shouldn't be wasting your time playing some video games.

Shmups have been "dying" for a decade now because they are skill based single player games, which a lot of people just don't get or enjoy. Neither shmups nor fighting games "died" or approached "dying" because they were catering to a particular audience too much. Fighting games briefly became more niche because arcades died and no online play existed to fill the void, so unless you were part of the slim minority of players who lived near to an active arcade or who was willing to drive around to meets, you had no options for play.

Developers calling for fighting games to become more approachable is mostly garbage. Fighting games are, and always have been, easy to pick up and play, and there will always be room for competitive games on the market. The fact of the matter is, you can be infinitely deep and very approachable at the same time, which is what most shmups and fighting games are. Shmups just don't have the same market as fighters.

That being said, I think shmups don't have to be as niche as they are. They've become less diverse, emphasizing danmaku a bit too much, have become difficult to purchase (often requiring importing), and have not put serious effort into figuring out how to telegraph the 1cc or scoreplay methedology ("just give em unlimited credits instead"). I think there are a lot of things that shmups can do to increase genre awareness, especially now that digital distribution is becoming a thing, but they do need to put some effort in. That being said, it will probably take a while for the playerbase to increase if it ever does. Shmups just might not be the games for this generation.

That's because people are basically "told" they shouldn't enjoy them. The idea of learning and executing skills is seen as "unnecessary", and instant gratification is championed. Multiplayer games have somewhat escaped this because they're more "obvious", yet people still expect instant gratification in those games.

Trying to separate games into "markets" is the problem, because those markets aren't found but made. People are told to like specific things; sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. It's as random as it gets. Shmups, fighters, and whatever else can appeal to anyone who calls themselves a "human being", and pretty much everything that stands in the way of that is some stupid perception. The only thing that is even remotely a solid obstacle is talent, and that simply isn't as much of a deciding factor as people think it is. Hell, most people don't even know exactly what is and isn't a "talent" to begin with.

See, Shepardus, you get it exactly. This genre just magically ~happens~ to be one that isn't "allowed" to have any self-motivation allocated to it, because Someone Said So. Seriously, "markets" and all this other bullshit is just random and fake. We need to break free from that. We need to show people why "instant gratification" is pointless, and we need to show people what it means to "play a game" again, because Someone keeps telling them that they should forget and never know.

Above all else, we need to stop making everything out to be "retro", and get rid of some "retro" trappings that should never have been there and have hurt games since the beginning.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

There is this awesome documentation about shmups made by our french friends: http://vimeo.com/11393132

It all boils down to the rise of console gaming. The advent of 3D and DVD just cemented that. The few remaining developers targeted the hardcore because that was all they got left. Hardcore players didn't kill shmups, if anything they kept them alive in a zombie-like niche state.

I've got to be honest. I didn't know shmups were still made before I saw that HARDEST MOTHERFUCKING BOSS OF ALL TIME!! video. I honestly thought they died with the Mega Drive. Holy hell, I didn't even knew that the Saturn and Dreamcast were considered shmups heavens because, as a PAL-only gamer at the time, I sure as hell didn't see any of them in the retail store and the gaming magazines simply ignored them. It's now my second favorite genre but that doesn't change the fact that most people simply don't care for this genre anymore and no easy-mode could change that fact.

Just accept it. Look at the SRPG genre on consoles for example. The things I would do for a modern Front Mission... When we count all three consoles from last gen, do we even get 10 SRPGs? They mostly went to the DS and PSP and now all we have left is Fire Emblem, Super Robot Wars and Disgaea, oh, and Sega made recently a quick cash-in with the PC version of Valkyria Chronicles. If anything, you guys should consider yourself happy! There is not even a fucking forum for SRPGs.

[Squire Grooktook]

That's because people are basically "told" they shouldn't enjoy them. The idea of learning and executing skills is seen as "unnecessary", and instant gratification is championed. Multiplayer games have somewhat escaped this because they're more "obvious", yet people still expect instant gratification in those games.

I agree with this to an extent. I think that the way mainstream games have developed and the way people think about games in general has been a result of the rise of console gaming and 3d, as Teufel said. Developers have become obsessed with exploiting larger markets and games based around the current technology, to the point that a fallacy has arisen with both players and developers that punishing the player - the root of almost all excitement in a game - is seen as a game design no-no. With years and years of this, most new players grow up believing this to be the case and can rarely get into anything that requires discipline or effort

On the other hand, different people have different tastes. I do believe that the gaming audience as a whole could embrace challenging and punishing games more readily if they were "told" to do so more, but there will always be those who simply don't like that kind of experience on a core level. Still though, I don't think those people are as numerous as shmup sales would have us believe.

It all boils down to the rise of console gaming...Hardcore players didn't kill shmups, if anything they kept them alive in a zombie-like niche state.

100% this. Developers (be they for fighters or shmups) blaming the audience is garbage. They should be blaming the general public for not being part of that audience. I still don't agree entirely that shmups are doomed to be the nichiest of niches (their situation can be improved to some extent), but they indeed always will be niche.

Though for the SRPG argument, I don't think that genre ever was as big as shmups, even in their comparitive haydays. I think it says something about shmups that there's always a hardcore fanbase and there are always developers interested in trying their hand at them.


Anyway, Itagaki has no idea what he's talking about, his assessments of fighters needing to be dumbed down is garbage as is his assertion about shmups.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'm actually surprised a lot of early shmups survived to the point where they're as polished as they are now. There's a lot of arcade shmups I've tried whose mechanics are just awful, from gigantic hitboxes, insane button mashing required, ridiculous difficulty due to full depowering, etc. I'm genuinely surprised shmupping as a genre managed to evolve to the point it has where really polished doujins are now a common thing.

Serious players haven't ruined shmups any more than serious players have ruined fighting games. The problem is one of marketing and perception; shmups have been primarly seen by the masses as a "retro" genre, one that's quaint, but not to be taken seriously. Even the more well known ones like Ikaruga and Sine Mora get labelled things like "retro shooter" all the time, and outside perception is one of there being a gigantic entry barrier when a lot of releases have actually been very friendly in terms of difficulty (Futari's been brought up as a good example - Original is very accessible compared to Ultra).

[Obscura]

What's wrong with button mashing? Having to hit a button fast is a great way to get the adrenaline going, albeit it's probably better when done in short bursts.

Having to mash when the dicks touch in Metal Black or G-Darius makes it feel more exciting than it really is. It's fun!

[Formless God]

Developers (be they for fighters or shmups) blaming the audience is garbage. They should be blaming the general public for not being part of that audience.

This. The players need to take a good long look at themselves before faulting the developers. Are any of you hardcore players? What did you do when you got into the genre? You did your research. You watched replays. You looked your game up the shump farm's Strategy section. People who have never bothered doing that have no right to complain about the genre being inaccessible.

And lol @ "the fighting game genre is at risk of facing the same dilemma". That doesn't explain the uproar over at the GG and Tekken clubs.

Anyway, Itagaki has no idea what he's talking about, his assessments of fighters needing to be dumbed down is garbage as is his assertion about shmups.

Itagaki is just fucking dumb and salty. Always. I'm grateful for whoever kicked the little shitter out of Tecmo.

Even at a superficial level DOA is starting to suffer this - counter windows are tiny and countering mid kick/punch is a different move.
end result is counters are a waste of time unless you're a good player (also the last person who needs them)

If you've ever messed around with Guard Impact in SC, DOA's hold windows are really large enough to park a truck in. I don't remember how it went for the early games, but separate hold commands for mid kick and punch has been a thing since at least 4.

And holds are largely a tool for low level players due to the following reasons:
- easy to execute
- gets you out of a string
- deals s1kk damage while not requiring the player to know their character
- countered by throws
You don't see them in arcade tournaments.

[Jeneki]

I would not say shmups appeal to the "hardcore" only. Anyone can pick one up, shoot stuff, bomb when in trouble, and have fun. Sure, they may not understand scoring techniques or the finer points of strategy, but that won't stop them from enjoying it. If anything, the pick-up-and-play, easy-to-play-but-hard-to-master nature of shmups is one of its stronger points.

I'd say it's the modern perception of value that killed it: 2d gameplay? Under an hour long? Freeware or dollar game tops.

[Shepardus]

I'd say it's the modern perception of value that killed it: 2d gameplay? Under an hour long? Freeware or dollar game tops.

That's definitely an issue for people trying to sell a shmup these days, I can't recall specific examples off the top of my head but I'm sure if you were to look through the thread here about amusingly bad shmup reviews you'd find plenty docking points for the game's short length. It seems that many people think that when they pay for a game they're purchasing the content that makes up the game, as opposed to the experience that is delivered through the content, and if there isn't a certain amount of content (or if they can't reach all the content) they feel ripped off. At least in the setting of an arcade it's clear that your credit is buying the ability to play the game a single time rather than buying a set of art assets.

I also still see people mistakenly refer to Touhou as freeware, though fortunately not often.

[Vetus]

With many console ports of arcade shmups having unlimited continues and resume from the point you have died I can't see what's so hardcore about them.

[Stevas]

I'd suggest the "problem" is even more fundamental. You guys are arguing why a genre is dead, when it's the mindset itself that has been extinct for some time, now.

Humanity itself has changed.
Because: reasons.

To touch on a few (but not in any way all):

- The internet.

- The sheer volume of information and connectivity humans have now, compared to when I was growing up, is mindblowing. Seriously. If you're over 40 (MY COMMISERATIONS, BY THE WAY), just sit and think on that for a bit.

Yeah. A mindfuck, isn't it?
I'm surprised this generation hasn't already gone INSANE*.

- The internet?

- Shmups were born in a different era.
It was an era when your average kid put up with waiting ten minutes for a tape to (perhaps) load a game. An era where graphics actually took a back seat to your own imagination, because graphics were little more than slightly different size blobs of colour. An age when a kid had to save up his pocket money for six months to get a new game. Then we went down the arcade and... HOLEE FUCK, are you SEEING THIS SHIT? Shit is SCROLLING, dude! And there's MOTHERFUCKING SPEECH! Almost. LOOK AT THE LIGHT SHOWS. DAMNNNNNNN. Right?
Compare all that with now, where a kid gets what he wants, right fucking now. Where a kid gets to semi-realistically shoot me right innaface, while telling me what he'd like to do to my mom, even though he's actually not going to be physically capable (HELLO, PUBERTY) for three years. He's still probably doing that one handed too, but while "selfieing" himself in an entirely different way to what you'd expect. Arcades? Yeah, we go to the arcades. To meet up with the girls at the dance machines. I'm ten years old, and I already know more girls than you did in your entire life.

What I'm trying to say is, shmups were a genre that was forced on us somewhat through the tech available. It was, for a while, a perfect fit. Much as the FPS was five to ten years ago, and much as the open world shenanigans game (or the OWSG - yes, it is quite catchy, thanks) is now (i.e. your GTAs).

- Did I mention the internet, yet?

- Let's Plays. Seriously. I will never get that shit, no matter how much it's "explained" to me, so don't even try. It's just alien, and does not fucking compute. So you'd... rather sit watching someone else play, than play a game yourself? Kids can't even be arsed to waste their own time these days, they gotta watch someone else do it?

i don't even (thanks internet - you're still good for something!)

etc etc.

E T jesus christing C.


* I'm pretty sure they have, but I'm reserving complete judgement until some sort of Deity gets involved down here.

[dex]

The rise of speedrunning has been a HUGE help for #2, seriously

it's popular only as a spectator thing because you can watch your favourite games you played in your childhood or still play casually get broken, hardly anyone actually speedruns

The marathons and streaming expanded the popularity of speedrunning a lot. I've been a part of speedrunning culture for half my life and the recent explosion of new speedrunners coming along is pretty crazy.

[Casey120]

If a genre dies because it becomes obsolete isn´t it usually just the hardcore fans that remain ?

[Cagar]

"Hardcore" arcade developers and their terrible marketing killed shmups.

[Cagar]

- Let's Plays. Seriously. I will never get that shit, no matter how much it's "explained" to me, so don't even try. It's just alien, and does not fucking compute. So you'd... rather sit watching someone else play, than play a game yourself? Kids can't even be arsed to waste their own time these days, they gotta watch someone else do it?

Post was almost amazing until this part