What to do when a Shmup has unlimited Continues

[SuperSoaker360]

I don't understand why they make it so easy for you to beat the game. For these games with unlimited continues, you don't have to play and you will still beat the game. You just have to keep on pressing continue.

[Pretas]

You know, it is a bit odd that someone who took the name of an ultra-obscure, Japan-only Playstation STG as his username would be creating this thread.

[Squire Grooktook]

"Arcade games" aren't a genre, nor are they separate from "shmups."

Arcade styled games, that is games characterized by and designed around score counters, a 1cc philosophy, a one sitting play length, etc. are a vast enough body of work that I think they can accurately be called a seperate genre/medium/style of design from action games or games in general that are not built around those traits. Shmups are just one genre of games that fall under that roof, but stuff like classic Castlevania, Contra, Metal Slug, Streets Of Rage, etc. all fall under that umbrella too due to being designed around 1cc's, score counters, single sitting game length, etc.

Nor are "shmups" inherently more capable of delivering tension and excitement than, say, Souls-style action RPGs.

Any game can create tension so long as it has some penalty for failure or some inherent or logical reason not to fail (ie fighting games or competitive games in general don't need any in game punishments because simply knowing the opponent proved himself your better is enough). Point is though, with the exception of out-of-game competition and other small exceptions, it has to be planned and built into the game*, just like fear or suspense has to be planned and built into a horror game. That doesn't mean you can control how every individual players reacts, but it is important to take those steps to guide players to the experience you want them to have.

The Souls series itself is a perfect example of this. Between dropping souls on death, losing your humanity/your body, and the somewhat lengthy time between checkpoints and bosses (most notable in Demon's Souls), and you have a game where you're wagering slightly more than just pride with each attempt.

That being said, I do believe that arcade styled games are the most intuitive and straight forward example of action games that expertly create tension. And the point of all this is that this is (one reason) why we don't credit feed, or at least aim not to: There needs to be something riding on a battle in order for it to reach its maximum possible excitement.


*If your getting excited and hyped up pushing crates back and forth for no reason, I'd say thats more you than the game.

[ARF]

Its important to understand the score reset concept. Score represents your mastery of the game. So having a score of 0 due to continuing essentially means you didn't beat the game, even if you just saw the ending.

But using continues makes you score even higher in some games. In the older touhou games you get full power after getting a game over, which makes it so that after you've suicided against the first few enemies you can immediately start building power item value. And in the latest touhou game, Double Dealing Character, the score TAS uses 5 continues in the first 2 stages to build point item value while dumping resources like crazy (score does reset, but the PiV doesn't in touhou) and ultimately scores higher than possible in a 1cc.

[Squire Grooktook]

Its important to understand the score reset concept. Score represents your mastery of the game. So having a score of 0 due to continuing essentially means you didn't beat the game, even if you just saw the ending.

But using continues makes you score even higher in some games. In the older touhou games you get full power after getting a game over, which makes it so that after you've suicided against the first few enemies you can immediately start building power item value. And in the latest touhou game, Double Dealing Character, the score TAS uses 5 continues in the first 2 stages to build point item value while dumping resources like crazy (score does reset, but the PiV doesn't in touhou) and ultimately scores higher than possible in a 1cc.

My life is suddenly a sham.

[MR_Soren]

Play however you want.

However, I think CAVE's games would have reviewed better in the West if they started you with 1 credit and only unlocked more through play. Otherwise, reviewers do the whole "30-minutes and done" routine and write off the game as a waste of money.

[FRO]

here we go again... remove continues altogether and encourage people to head to a nice stage select; this will show people exactly what "gameplay" is so they can approach it at face value. try to keep as much "story" out of your game as possible, because again people will run over gameplay to get to some story bit. if you think your story is so good, have it as a separate "visual novel" mode or something. show people that they can't just treat everything like it's an rpg, where gameplay takes a backseat in favor of story.

I don't understand why they make it so easy for you to beat the game. For these games with unlimited continues, you don't have to play and you will still beat the game. You just have to keep on pressing continue. So what do you do in these situations? Of course I'm sure some just say they try to beat it on one credit. But the thing is most people are not disciplined enough to stop. I feel like it takes away a lot of the fun.

back in the mid-'80s some "genius" thought it'd be a great idea to allow the player to put in money and keep playing after they lost all their lives. it was such a "genius" idea that it completely took over and destroyed american arcades, and it would have taken over japanese ones were it not for some magical something that kept people "in line" (literally), that convinced people to keep caring about arcade games. a certain part of sfii's success was because its competitive multiplayer mode uses a very different definition of "one game per credit" that is completely incompatible with the continues concept.

That "genius" was probably thinking of all the potential profit that could be made by making the game more accessible to players who didn't have the ability to spend hours in front of an arcade cabinet to master a game. For those players, the ability to credit feed still gives the game company the opportunity to turn a profit from their playtime, whereas the more dedicated player would still try and maximize their score on a single credit or play-through. Is it so wrong to make the experience more open-ended so the user can decide how they want to experience it?

the problem isn't "discipline", as people think continues or not is a split of playstyle. the problem is that people have no idea what a "continue" even is and what it means to game design, because right now people care less about "playing a game" than they have ever had before. when even one continue pointlessly gives you a bunch of lives, it is not a matter of playstyle.

Maybe I'm thinking a bit too meta about this, but what do mean "pointlessly gives you a bunch of lives"? If we're looking strictly at function, then it's the player receiving those lives for the price of another credit, whatever that cost is per machine. If you're digging more deeply into the design of the game and what the consequences are for continuing, I would counter that with my own thought that, the "consequences" of credit feeding differ based on perspective. For a player that just wants to see the whole game in a single play and not delve into the deeper play experience, the consequence is that they're only getting a fraction of what that game has to offer. If that's of little concern to them, then at least they had the option of making that call by being offered the option to do so. Games with purposely limited continues will shrug off that kind of userbase and limit the potential exposure.

Games are about fun, and some people don't care about score.

Score is great, and is an important aspect of the genre's design, but shmups are no longer infinite loops for a reason.

score and continues have nothing to do with each other. that said, people are being dishonest with themselves; they segregate a game into parts, and call whatever parts happen to quench their thirst for explosions or whatever "the game", criticizing based on that.

score and looping don't really have anything to do with each other either. the reason loops were killed was because designers and operators came to resent pros sitting there and fighting it out for hours.

I would disagree with that, in the sense that score and continues are intrinsically linked in nearly all shooters (RayCrisis being a notable exception). As soon as you continue, in nearly every shmup, your score resets. For the player who doesn't care about score, and only wants to see the game through to the end, this is immaterial. For players such as yourself, who care about score, then obviously the continue becomes the demarcation point between playing for score, and playing for the sake of the experience itself. You may wish to get down into the weeds, learn the scoring system, master the game's control scheme and scoring techniques, and all of the related minutia, but not everyone has a desire to do that. After a few minutes of playing Psyvariar 2, I could tell that it wasn't going to be a game I wanted to spend a lot of time with. I might credit feed to see the games stages and bosses, just to get a sense of the game itself, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time with it because I'm not a fan of the buzz system. Don't begrudge me (or others) for wanting to credit feed through a game like that rather than dig into it more deeply. I have just as much right and/or opportunity to play the game as you do, I'm just not going to experience as much of it as you might.

Give me all the options at my disposal to maximize score, milk the boss, gain rank, etc. but give me those continues so I CAN CHOOSE how I want to play.

but you're not "choosing" anything. what continues do is allow you to completely forgo playing the game at all and just mash your way through to see some ending sequence or whatever... and criticism of most games only cares about these small, almost meaningless parts. it's really absurd to have to say something like this: games aren't about story, they're about gameplay, and this isn't opinion. gameplay itself is the real "story" in a game; when you make a "story-based" game, it can only get in the way of gameplay.

people's understanding of what a "video game" even is anymore is broken, might have always been broken, and really has nothing to do with indies or whatever.

I'm not sure what you're driving at here. The player IS choosing - the choice as to whether or not to play the game for score or play strictly for experience. I can play Super Mario Bros. and use the warps to skip the majority of the game, just so I can get to the final appearance of Bowser and "beat" the game, but I have cheated myself out of the full experience by not playing through all the levels. I can play through all the levels, but not maximize my scoring potential by breaking lots of bricks, or jumping off the end stairs to try and get the most points from the end of level flag. I can choose to do that, and I'm only cheating myself, or limiting my own experience. By the same token, I can play through a shmup and continue whenever I run out of lives, for the sole purpose of seeing the game through to the end. Will I get the "real" ending? In some cases, no. Will I get the most out of the game? Most likely not, because I didn't spend the time to learn the game more deeply and completely. At the end of the day, it's still my choice as to how to play. If you design your game to limit my choices, and I prefer casual play to something more involved, you as a developer will likely lose me as a customer, because I may not want to spend the time to delve into your game more fully. If that's what you want, then that's fine. But as a customer, it seems to me that it would be better if you gave me the choice of how to play.

[Squire Grooktook]

If you design your game to limit my choices, and I prefer casual play to something more involved, you as a developer will likely lose me as a customer, because I may not want to spend the time to delve into your game more fully. If that's what you want, then that's fine. But as a customer, it seems to me that it would be better if you gave me the choice of how to play.

Thing is, this implies you've already bought the game, so I don't know what the developer is losing here. If the game telegraphs serious play better by removing continues, than it could potentially get you into the entire genre by showing you how its really meant to be played. On the other side of the coin, I don't see someone who would ditch a game because it doesn't have unlimited continues as buying many shmups anyway.

[Doctor Butler]

I really think the best design choice is to send the player back to the beginning of the stage upon continuing. The player isn't discouraged from playing the game altogether, but also learns that they have to actually learn the game.

Plus, you won't get the "game is too hard" comments from the casual-crowd, like you would if your game lacked continues, and you also avoid the "game is too easy; just credit-feed" bullshit when you give them unlimited credits.

Win-win.

[Squire Grooktook]

I really think the best design choice is to send the player back to the beginning of the stage upon continuing. The player isn't discouraged from playing the game altogether, but also learns that they have to actually learn the game.

Plus, you won't get the "game is too hard" comments from the casual-crowd, like you would if your game lacked continues, and you also avoid the "game is too easy; just credit-feed" bullshit when you give them unlimited credits.

Win-win.

I like this but only if there are still limited continues in the first place (ie 2 or 3 times you get sent to the beginning of the stage, than back to the beginning of the game). The thing I don't like about unlimited continues with stage checkpoints is that it still doesn't telegraph the "gauntlet" nature of shmups and encourages you to just grind at single sections like its Super Meat Boy, never realizing that there's more to the experience than that.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

So I guess the question now is how much percent of shumps give you unlimited lives? It seems that most of mine don't, but a few of mine do. Do most of yours give you unlimited credits?

Most give unlimited credits/continues as a way of practicing the game even if you get a game over. Don't think of unlimited credits as something that makes the game "easy", they're there to be used when practicing. A lot of games require you to actually clear the game without getting a gameover (a 1CC) in order to see the good ending or true final boss (Giga Wing for instance).

[xxx1993]

Like most on the forum, I don't consider the game to have been beaten unless it was done ONLY on the original credit. Anything beyond the first credit is a practice run. They reset your score to zero when you continue for a reason. Score does matter.

Not to me. That's the one thing I don't like about shmup purists.

[drunkninja24]

Like most on the forum, I don't consider the game to have been beaten unless it was done ONLY on the original credit. Anything beyond the first credit is a practice run. They reset your score to zero when you continue for a reason. Score does matter.

Not to me. That's the one thing I don't like about shmup purists.

...that they don't choose to ignore one of the central aspects of the games they play?

[xxx1993]

Like most on the forum, I don't consider the game to have been beaten unless it was done ONLY on the original credit. Anything beyond the first credit is a practice run. They reset your score to zero when you continue for a reason. Score does matter.

Not to me. That's the one thing I don't like about shmup purists.

...that they don't choose to ignore one of the central aspects of the games they play?

No, that they say "You haven't beaten the game unless you 1CC'd it!" I call that bullshit, I beat the game either way. Besides, doesn't it just give you the same result regardless of using a credit to continue the game?

[Kollision]

Not to me. That's the one thing I don't like about shmup purists.

...that they don't choose to ignore one of the central aspects of the games they play?

No, that they say "You haven't beaten the game unless you 1CC'd it!" I call that bullshit, I beat the game either way. Besides, doesn't it just give you the same result regardless of using a credit to continue the game?

Giga Wing, Homura and a few others would like to have a talk with you.

and beware, that's a very dangerous path you're taking there...

[God]

verts: for a roll of quarters they roll over like cheap prostitutes
hories: still completely playable with cred feeding

Either can be 1LCed or 1CCed, but it's an achievement just making it to the end of a horie, even with unlimited continues. It's something verts don't have an equivalent for.

[drunkninja24]

No, that they say "You haven't beaten the game unless you 1CC'd it!" I call that bullshit, I beat the game either way. Besides, doesn't it just give you the same result regardless of using a credit to continue the game?

Well I mean....if you really call throwing credits and thus completely ignoring all challenge the game throws at you "beating" a game, then sure, have at it. But these games (for the most part) are pretty well designed with the 1CC challenge in mind.

And no, a lot of them don't give you the same result, especially in a lot of Cave games, with TLBs and the like.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

o, that they say "You haven't beaten the game unless you 1CC'd it!" I call that bullshit, I beat the game either way. Besides, doesn't it just give you the same result regardless of using a credit to continue the game?

you are right, pressing the start button over and over is such an amazing display of skill and totally a legitimate clear and how shmups were meant to be played

[mehguy]

The game becomes too easy. It's as simple as that.

[Lilium]

Please don't be so ableist forum. For some people, pressing continue is hard.

[EmperorIng]

I beat the game either way. Besides, doesn't it just give you the same result regardless of using a credit to continue the game?

If you only play a shmup to see its ending, I suppose.

[Shepardus]

I beat the game either way. Besides, doesn't it just give you the same result regardless of using a credit to continue the game?

If you only play a shmup to see its ending, I suppose.

Even in that case many shmups don't show you the true ending unless you get a 1cc.

A lot of shmupping comes down to how self-motivated you are. In games with unlimited continues it's only a challenge if you want it to be - what you get out depends on what you put in. If you don't have that sort of motivation then so be it, but it's your loss (not to mention that shmups may not be the right genre for you).

[Doctor Butler]

I beat the game either way. Besides, doesn't it just give you the same result regardless of using a credit to continue the game?

If you only play a shmup to see its ending, I suppose.

Even in that case many shmups don't show you the true ending unless you get a 1cc.

A lot of shmupping comes down to how self-motivated you are. In games with unlimited continues it's only a challenge if you want it to be - what you get out depends on what you put in. If you don't have that sort of motivation then so be it, but it's your loss (not to mention that shmups may not be the right genre for you).

This exactly.

[Squire Grooktook]

Look at the score counter bro. The game says you have zero points after you continue. That means you have zero mastery and zero completion rate.

Besides, if "just playing through to the ending" means you beat the game regardless of whether you essentially used a practice mode mechanic to do it, you might as well say that using a cheat engine or cheat code to play through to the end qualifies as beating it to.

[apatheticTurd]

For home console shmups and arcade ports that offer fixed limited continues, I don't think it's all that unreasonable to claim you've "beat" the game if you manage to complete it within the default lives and continues pool, although obviously, you can't claim to have mastered the game to any serious degree, and playing for the 1cc is a better experience.

Home games with unlimited credits, though? Yeah.

[KidQuaalude]

they say "You haven't beaten the game unless you 1CC'd it!" I call that bullshit, I beat the game either way. Besides, doesn't it just give you the same result regardless of using a credit to continue the game?

You may have finished the game, but you did not 'beat' it. Credit-feeders are essentially using an infinite lives cheat. And as others have mentioned, you might not get the 'true' ending if you didnt finish one one credit (or survive the second loop).

Reminds me of the type of tool that dismisses shmups because "this game can be finished in an hour" etc etc. Yes, but it can take a lifetime to master those 60 minutes of game.

[atro]

Its important to understand the score reset concept. Score represents your mastery of the game. So having a score of 0 due to continuing essentially means you didn't beat the game, even if you just saw the ending. It's similar to say, the "rooms explored" % you'd see in a Metroidvania save file. You need to have your score in tact in order to have truly beaten the game, hence the 1cc.

I have to agree and disagree at the same time.
This is only due to multiple "End/Boss Stage" bonuses.
I'll take Sunset Riders as an example.

Say Player X beats the 1st stage and dies on stage 2 and does not continue. He makes 30,000pts.
Then, Player Y dies on the 2nd stage and loses all the points. Continues and beats the Boss.
He makes 40,000pts.
This is not fair for scoring.

This is why I love the "Neo Geo" scoring concept. You lose a credit, it adds +1 at the score counter.
If you see a +9 ( 9 continues and up ) at the end, then you know the player in question was a lame performer

[xxx1993]

I beat the game either way. Besides, doesn't it just give you the same result regardless of using a credit to continue the game?

If you only play a shmup to see its ending, I suppose.

Even in that case many shmups don't show you the true ending unless you get a 1cc.

A lot of shmupping comes down to how self-motivated you are. In games with unlimited continues it's only a challenge if you want it to be - what you get out depends on what you put in. If you don't have that sort of motivation then so be it, but it's your loss (not to mention that shmups may not be the right genre for you).

I only want to beat the game without continuing or doing whatever condition that is required for a true final boss and an ending. There's a reason why I played DoDonPachi without using continues once. Same for others like Giga Wing.

[system11]

Play however you want.

However, I think CAVE's games would have reviewed better in the West if they started you with 1 credit and only unlocked more through play. Otherwise, reviewers do the whole "30-minutes and done" routine and write off the game as a waste of money.

This is a problem with the 'journalists' though. Either they just don't understand, or they don't think their readership will.

Edit: also locking the thread, warned a bunch of people. Tired of people crying when they don't like a thread - it's really, REALLY easy to just not post in it. I know you can do it if you try.