Debate : Freedom of speech

[Xyga]

I don't live in Europe, so I can't know exactly what's going on there. I do know that the unemployment thing is a big part of it. It doesn't help that many of these refugees/immigrants are on welfare. So, I can see how the far right can easily say "we don't have the money to take care of our own, and these people are dragging us down more".

But it really seems like you have a culture within a culture. They don't want to assimilate, and they don't seem to like you. And the more of them there are, the more riots, rapes, bombings....whatnot, seems to take place.

Is it such a bad thing to say "well, we should stop letting these people in, for a while". And have longer prison sentences for people who do "terrorist like" activities?
Rather than being so afraid of offending someone? Does Europe owe them housing and welfare? I don't get it.

Is this so xenophobic and racist? I think Political Correctness is going to kill us.

I mean, from what I understand, Sweden has made it somewhat illegal to criticize Immigration http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-new ... net-speech. That is...that's insane. If I'm wrong, please correct me (this could be far right fear mongering). But it seems like the far left is handing over their countries and freedoms on a platter, to people who don't even appreciate it.

I want to be tolerant...but these folks seem like some of the most intolerant people on the planet. We just feel bad for them, because they are the minority. For now, anyway. Maybe some folks should take a trip to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, and see if they have the same sympathies when they get back.

You are completely wrong, there's not a single far-left party with a hint of power in Europe, and not even far-right yet save maybe Hungary by proxy.

But the far right ones are on the rise in several countries yes that' a fact.

Thing is you're saying exactly the same thing as them: "if you forbid us to label Islam/jews/gipsies as the great evil menacing us, you're against freedom of speech".

One thing with freedom of speech is it works indeed within certain limits, finding out where those limits are drawn is easy, just don't forget it's always wrong to put an entire population/ethnic group in the same basket, when criminals are a number of individuals most of the people targeted by the hate are several generations-back residents of the country and citizens, who by the way have been treated like shit for decades.
If you look at it it's a contest a who's got the most hate for the other and who will first become the obedient lackey of extremist leaders.
Exactly the 'clash of civilizations' scenario assholes dream about.
And what 'Western' civilization to begin? I don't feel like I have the same values and culture as American's, we may have lots in common but a shitload of differences as well. Even more complex in Europe with it's tons of languages and cultures, all of us are more or less close but not the same.
Civilization my ass. The same goes with Muslims you will never be able to label them as a 'civilization', especially when they're so busy hating and killing each other.

Rationally speaking there's been way more infuriating deaths throughout Europe in the past years because of tons of reasons, from shady drug manufacturers, mafia, poverty-induced suicides, or whatever sinister things.
Leaders use the fear of Islam because it's a perfect scarecrow, but what the fuck people; THINK!
I hate those terrorist butchers too but they're not even in the top 10 problems we have in Europe right now, save for the fact that they've become a powerful political tool for bastards to use.

[trap15]

Islam is the new Judaism and suicide bombers are the new bankers.

[evil_ash_xero]

Islam is the new Judaism and suicide bombers are the new bankers.

That's cheap. And I think that's what Europeans are afraid of being/looking like.

Thing is, the Jews weren't killing people. From what I can gather, people were just jealous of their success, while they were broke.
Not too similar, really.


Xyga: What you say is interesting. Like I said, I don't live there. I just watch stuff, and read stuff about what's going on. Perhaps these news outlets/programs are making it worse than it is? I don't know.
Maybe Far Left looks way different to an American, than it does to a European. Because to us, Europe looks VERY left leaning.

Anyway....In America, Freedom of Speech is...it's massive. And that means hate speech as well. You can say whatever you want. Whether other people like it or not. If they get offended, oh well.
So, anything like deeming something "hate speech", or getting in trouble for "hate speech", is really unthinkable to your average American. I mean, the Klan and Neo Nazis can have rallies, and the police have to (by law) protect them. Just think about those "God Hates Fags" people, having protests at dead soldiers' funerals, and you can get the idea of how far we allow our Freedom of Speech go. You have to take the good with the bad.
America has so many different people, and different opinions, but I think everyone here agrees on the idea that you should be able to say what you want.

Well, except for SJWs.

When I hear that England has hate speech laws, it makes me cringe. I guess it's just the American in me. And I'm not a patriot, by any means.

And don't get the wrong idea. I like Europe a lot. I think they have the right idea on a lot of things, way better than we do (well, not Spanish banks....the worst!). But I worry about what's going on right now.

[neorichieb1971]

Although I find a lot wrong with the terrorists...

What exactly is it that you find right with the terrorists? The way they held their weapons? Their choice of footwear?

Your thoughts are nothing more than cowardice dressed as reason. Why don't you simply state your opinion outright? 'They had it coming.'

How spineless we Europeans have become! Rather than face reality we wish murder on those that tell us to stop dreaming. 'Don't rock the boat!'

Have you ever heard the phrase "There is no need for that".

I don't know shit about Mohammed or anything related to Muslims. But what I do know is that what they practice doesn't hurt any Western culture. For the Western culture to treat their religion as some kind of laughing matter must hurt them deeply.

When I watched the news last night there was some dialogue which didn't striclty ring true with me..

1) President Obama - Quote "These people are afraid of our freedom of speech"... My version would have been "They were insulted by your freedom of speech".

2) News reader - Quote "The only thing they have done is make people hate them more".. My version "The cartoonists who drew insulting pictures are now dead, so them people won't be drawing any cartoons any time soon".

My perfect world has no crime.. I was not brought up to deliberatly provoke and poke fun at different people, I was brought up to respect them just the same as anyone else. Perhaps I'm the minority. Sometimes I'm not surprised I live in solitude.

[evil_ash_xero]

I don't know shit about Mohammed or anything related to Muslims. But what I do know is that what they practice doesn't hurt any Western culture. For the Western culture to treat their religion as some kind of laughing matter must hurt them deeply.

You should read up on their religion. And their countries. And their laws. Treatment of women. Treatment of gays. Treatment of Christians. Etc....

It's all very enlightening. Like Most Americans, I felt pretty indifferent to Muslims, before 9/11. Even after 9/11, I still didn't think that much about it. But over the years, the more and more you look into it.... It's honestly quite frightening. It all seems like stuff that most of civilization has let go of, in the last few hundred years. You know, the "bad" stuff.

And if they want to get upset, that is totally fine. But killing people is too far. That's why people are afraid of Muslims. And fear can lead to hate.
If stuff like this didn't happen, then I would understand what you're going for more. But I see the violence and intolerance, and there is no excuse for it.
Offended or not.

I will never accept their violence, in the name of religion. And that goes for any other religion as well.

[BulletMagnet]

That's why people are afraid of Muslims.

People have no more need to be afraid of Islam in general then they do of Christianity or most any other major religion (or political movement, or culture, etc.) in general, as most people the world over aren't so fanatically devoted to one thing that they'd be willing to kill for it at the drop of a hat; it's the hard-line, intolerant, fundamentalist interpretation of any faith (or other institution) that some percentage of them subscribe to which leads to problems, and the best thing anyone can do to fight such inclinations is to live and display a superior alternative without fear for all to see.

[neorichieb1971]

I hear ya.

I just think less death is better than more death... I would do anything to stop people killing each other. In most disputes in the world, you take the key ingredient away that is fueling the fire and the less people die, its simple as that.

You allow people to keep fueling the fire, more people die. So I really don't understand in that respect why people support freedom of speech to the extent where they know more life will be lost.

I certainly would not like to be collateral damage in a shootout. I don't take the piss out of people and make a living out of it and I don't think anyone else should.

But to be clear, I don't think shooting people is the right way to deal with this.. but I get the feeling that asking politiely wouldn't work either.

[evil_ash_xero]

That's why people are afraid of Muslims.

People have no more need to be afraid of Islam in general then they do of Christianity or most any other major religion (or political movement, or culture, etc.) in general, as most people the world over aren't so fanatically devoted to one thing that they'd be willing to kill for it at the drop of a hat; it's the hard-line, intolerant, fundamentalist interpretation of any faith (or other institution) that some percentage of them subscribe to which leads to problems, and the best thing anyone can do to fight such inclinations is to live and display a superior alternative without fear for all to see.

Modern day Christianity is not as dangerous as present day Islam. I just don't agree.
I live in an area completely packed with Christians. And not a single church bombing!

But we'll agree to disagree.

But to be clear, I don't think shooting people is the right way to deal with this.. but I get the feeling that asking politiely wouldn't work either.

No, neither would work. They're pretty ready to be martyred, so that angle doesn't have any effect. The only thing I can think of, is to slow down immigration, with laws, and to keep an extra eyeball on who you have now, and if something starts to brew, they go to jail. And if they are recent immigrants, then they can be deported. I don't want to see anyone get killed either. Certainly not innocent people, Christian, Muslim, or whatever.
In America, despite many many many people claiming our Home Security and CIA being able to do more than they do....they seem to do a lot. Seeing, as we have only had a couple of attacks since 9/11. The only two I can think of is where that American born guy shot up those people in Texas. Lone wolf, so nothing you can do about that. Then, the Boston Bombing.

[trap15]

Islam is not the issue, foreign imperialists and their proxy wars are. Who do you think arms and trains these radicals?

If you gave this level of funding and training to a large group of radical Christians and destabilized their area, I think they'd do the same thing.

[evil_ash_xero]

Islam is not the issue, foreign imperialists and their proxy wars are. Who do you think arms and trains these radicals?

If you gave this level of funding and training to a large group of radical Christians and destabilized their area, I think they'd do the same thing.

I dunno. I know the West's interference over there need to stop. But at the same time, they seem quite capable of fighting each other tooth and nail without us.
The Sunni's and Shiites just don't get along at all. And that doesn't have anything to do with us.

But yeah, they get their weapons and training from elsewhere. And Iraq is our fault completely.

I'm not talking about what's happening over there. I'm talking about what's happening in our countries. Some people got shot over a fucking cartoon strip. This doesn't have anything to do with proxy wars.

[Immryr]

I don't live in Europe, so I can't know exactly what's going on there. I do know that the unemployment thing is a big part of it. It doesn't help that many of these refugees/immigrants are on welfare. So, I can see how the far right can easily say "we don't have the money to take care of our own, and these people are dragging us down.

Do you write for the daily heil(Mail)? I don't know about other European countries but in the uk immigrants as a whole pay considerably more in taxes than they claim in benefits. And if you mean specifically asylum seekers, then the reason they don't work is..... They're not allowed to by law until they are granted leave to remain.

[trap15]

No, it absolutely does. These specific people came back from Syria, after fighting along side the "rebels". That means NATO armed and trained them. This is our fault.

[evil_ash_xero]

No, it absolutely does. These specific people came back from Syria, after fighting along side the "rebels". That means NATO armed and trained them. This is our fault.

ANYONE who goes to fight for ISIS (or similar Islamist militant group), should not be allowed back in the country. So, this once again goes to the government's failings at protecting it's own citizens.

Obviously people are starting to think I'm a Neo Nazi, so I'll just let it go. Especially irritating, considering how much I hate Nazis and racism.
My dad had to chase the Klan off, with a shotgun, when he first moved here.
It's also funny, because I got into a quarrel with a local guy on Facebook, who called me a "stupid Liberal". I can't win.

I'm a registered Democrat, who voted for Obama. And an atheist.

My point of view, is basically Bill Maher's, who is an outspoken liberal. This will probably constitute as hate speech in Europe, so watch at your own discretion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9i7fRy26V4

[austere]

I dunno. I know the West's interference over there need to stop. But at the same time, they seem quite capable of fighting each other tooth and nail without us.

Let's test your hypothesis.

Syria in 2009:

Crime in Syria is low, according to the U.S. State Department, "due to strong cultural mores against property crime and to the pervasive police and security presence throughout the country." Syria has been ruled under emergency law since 1963, which is when the ruling Ba'athists took power. While the State of Emergency is justified as a necessary response to external threats, it has been used by the Syrian state in order to enforce internal security as well.

Then Obombya funds Islamist terrorists in Syria. Syria in 2015 is essentially a fractured, failed state with terrorism everywhere.

Now let's take a look at the participants in the war:



Oh what do you know, France is the #1 contributor of foreign fighters in Syria. You will notice the terrorists were military trained and the media hasn't yet claimed they were with IS. Given their trigger discipline and battle posture, it's quite likely they were trained by NATO in Turkey or the US in Jordan.

So far from your brain dead "Shia vs Sunni" (never mind Shias are less than 0.5% of Syria's population and decreasing rapidly) narrative, no, Syria was just fine until the blood thirsty leaders of the west, who none of us can seem to hold accountable thanks to media-driven "democracy", decided to play geopolitical chess with.

All this said, yes, Muslims need to learn that people are going to make fun of you in the west and there's not a thing you can do about it. The best way to force them to realise this is to apply this spirit of satire against everyone and everything, not against them selectively. No one can boast to be all about freedom of speech when making fun of Jewish people while residing in Nazi Germany.

There are certain subjects you cannot touch in the west without threatening your livelihood, or in the case of the states with "hate crime" laws, your personal freedom. It's time to do away with that. Either you accept freedom of speech and everything it involves, everywhere (and don't give me that "consequences" bullshit -- if you want consequences for freedom of speech then you are a terrorist), or no where.

We can see in Europe where "hate crime laws" has led us to, we can also see how the establishment media control has created the very Jihadist problem that is plaguing the world. Hollande is a war criminal and he has the audacity to shed crocodile tears when his political decisions led to these people's deaths.

As an aside, the policeman that was killed by the terrorists was actually a Muslim -- an inconvenient fact for those who called for vigilantism early on. They got the dead Muslims they hoped for well before they even knew the events occurred, congratulations!

[evil_ash_xero]

Oh what do you know, France is the #1 contributor of foreign fighters in Syria.

Big surprise, seeing as they have possibly the highest Muslim immigrant population in Europe. So, you really showed me.

I'm done though.

[austere]

Big surprise, seeing as they have possibly the highest Muslim immigrant population in Europe. So, you really showed me.I'm done though.

LOL:

Muslim immigrant population

Majority of them were born in France though, but yes, you are very much done. That much is clear.

[Stompp]

I mean, from what I understand, Sweden has made it somewhat illegal to criticize Immigration http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-new ... net-speech. That is...that's insane. If I'm wrong, please correct me (this could be far right fear mongering). But it seems like the far left is handing over their countries and freedoms on a platter, to people who don't even appreciate it.

This is bull! I don't know where TEA stands but Fria Tider is not a source one should quote if one wants to be taken seriously. FT is an Internet publication with associations to the extreme right wing and critical towards immigration. The "article" is wrong. I have read the law text and neither immigrants, hbtq persons nor any other group of people are mentioned anywhere. The general idea of the law is to give the public (i.e. a third party) the right to protect people who get harassed (online or in print) when those people can't or won't push charges themselves (for whatever reason).

[evil_ash_xero]

Big surprise, seeing as they have possibly the highest Muslim immigrant population in Europe. So, you really showed me.I'm done though.

LOL:

Muslim immigrant population

Majority of them were born in France though, but yes, you are very much done. That much is clear.

Oh fuck off.

[evil_ash_xero]

I mean, from what I understand, Sweden has made it somewhat illegal to criticize Immigration http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-new ... net-speech. That is...that's insane. If I'm wrong, please correct me (this could be far right fear mongering). But it seems like the far left is handing over their countries and freedoms on a platter, to people who don't even appreciate it.

This is bull! I don't know where TEA stands but Fria Tider is not a source one should quote if one wants to be taken seriously. FT is an Internet publication with associations to the extreme right wing and critical towards immigration. The "article" is wrong. I have read the law text and neither immigrants, hbtq persons nor any other group of people are mentioned anywhere. The general idea of the law is to give the public (i.e. a third party) the right to protect people who get harassed (online or in print) when those people can't or won't push charges themselves (for whatever reason).

Thanks for letting me know. I wasn't sure if it was legit or not.

[Immryr]

Bill maher is about as liberal as Stalin. He's a vile, hate filled, Zionist and a misogynist to boot.

[austere]

Bill Maher is right about one thing though: hundreds of millions of Muslims DO support the attack on Charlie Hebdo*. Likewise, hundreds of millions of zionists like him support the state-sponsored terror campaigns of their favourite state. And hundreds of millions of "liberals"* support Obombyas international terror campaigns and slide towards a hot world war.

* [EDIT: A further example, Charlie Hebdo themselves, being "liberals", supported Obombya's war on Syria, which created the military trained jihadists who eventually came back home to kill them.]

So it's basically shit flingers flinging shit at other shit flingers.

Make of that what you will. I know one thing, I'll just sit back and watch the chaos because the Earth is populated by subhumans so retarded they can't see the forest from the trees. I've almost lost hope of ever turning this sinking ship around.

[neorichieb1971]

Well if 100's of millions of people are in support of gunning down people in the street I Think its more serious than I first imagined.

I really think Westerners really need to rethink their stance of freedom of speech when it comes to sensitive subject matters. If I was one of the muslim jihadists that is watching the news in the past 24 hours I would be creating even more attacks. Because in essence none of the media is actually stating that this kind of sattire isn't needed. Life can go on without sattire, but with sattire someones life may not go on.

I know what option I would go for on a multiple choice questionaire and politics/rights wouldn't even come into it.

[Mortificator]

If you believe this can be solved by a government crackdown, wouldn't it make more sense to crackdown on firearms? It's hard to gun people down in the street without guns.

[austere]

neorichieb1971 if we go down that route this will be the only kind of comic we can enjoy:

If you believe this can be solved by a government crackdown, wouldn't it make more sense to crackdown on firearms? It's hard to gun people down in the street without guns.

France has strict gun control laws against automatic firearms ensuring only the terrorists were armed with assault rifles and an RPG.

[Mortificator]

I know, which is why I said "crackdown on" rather than "pass laws against."

Also, I'm doubtful that Charlie would have avoided loss of life if military weapons were legally available to French citizens. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect newspaper staff would have whipped-out loaded assault rifles from under their desks and repelled a surprise assault like action movie commandos.

[austere]

I'm not so sure, perhaps you're right that it wouldn't have changed anything directly, but it would have certainly indirectly hampered their effort. Whoever planned the attack knew beforehand that the opposition (legally abiding citizens) would have no automatic firearms available to them. That assumption alone allowed them to carry out the plan without fear of loss of life on their part, making it's execution cheaper (game theoretically).

[Strikers1945guy]

I've never understood why some people think they have a right not to be offended. Like everyone else is supposed to be careful what they say because it could possibly offend everyone else. There's obviously a clear line between being a dick and just saying what you feel without going out to attack people verbally.

I shouldn't have be afraid to pray in public before I eat just because some atheist or someone of another faith might be somehow offended. If I was a Muslim and the cartoons poking fun at my bekiefs bothered me I could always do a crazy thing and *gasp* not read them.

[Eaglet]

Exactly. Overwhelming force and the element of surprise are combat basics that every organized group of combatants know about and practice.

You will unfortunately not be able to prevent scrupulous individuals acquisition of weapons through legislation.
If you're willing to go through with something like this you're also willing to do whatever it takes to get a hold of what you need to "do the job".
Especially if you're part of an international network.
Even in countries with very strict gun control (like my own) it's not that hard to get whatever you need.

[DEL]

Freedom of Speech is of course important and I'd add that Political Correctness is Censorship and Control.
-----------------------------
Now to explain yet again how the Zio Media uses something callled the Hegelian Dialect (and has done so very often in the last 2.5 years):

1. Create a problem YOURSELF.
2. Intentionally blame an intended INNOCENT party.
3. Get what you want out of it.

Problem -> Reaction -> Solution

Very simple and very effective.
Hitler used it very well when HE burned down the Reichstag and blamed it on the Russians. Which brought his People in behind him (which was the purpose of the whole hoax operation).
International news stories always have an Agenda behind them.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Well if 100's of millions of people are in support of gunning down people in the street I Think its more serious than I first imagined.

I really think Westerners really need to rethink their stance of freedom of speech when it comes to sensitive subject matters. If I was one of the muslim jihadists that is watching the news in the past 24 hours I would be creating even more attacks. Because in essence none of the media is actually stating that this kind of sattire isn't needed. Life can go on without sattire, but with sattire someones life may not go on.

I know what option I would go for on a multiple choice questionaire and politics/rights wouldn't even come into it.

I find it hard to believe that if the satire stopped then the terrorism would stop, there will always be reasons and targets in the minds of these maniacs. With that in mind I think satire is massively important, it helps the populace to laugh in the face of something which is otherwise awful and terrifying. Terrorism is, by definition, about instilling terror. Anything that can be done to reduce fear in the populace reduces the impact of terrorism. It's a small victory. If we choose not to publish cartoons or say what we think out of fear of reprisal then that's a victory for the terrorists. Fear must not become more important than freedom under any circumstances.