Debate : Freedom of speech

[neorichieb1971]

Paris, the interview and probably more to come.

I kind of get the feeling the media isn't concentrating on the issue of provoking hate when you know the high sensitivity of a certain subject matter. Certainly, I would not provoke someone who is ultra sensitive and who could create a deadly agenda if I provoked them with "freedom of speech".

Although I find a lot wrong with the terrorists, I am not sure it is right to hide behind "freedom of speech".. Everyone has a choice of what they say and do. If you provoke someone on purpose, surely that is hate?

Discuss.

[Eaglet]

Provoking somebody is absolutely not hate. Look it up in the dictionary.
Democracies are funded on the freedom of speech and right to dissent.
Infringing on these rights takes away the value of a democracy and leads to further restrictions in peoples ability to express their opinion.
Lieing down and giving up these rights that our ancestors have fought and died to gain and protect is nothing short of a travesty of epic proportions.

These terrorists and people who agree with what they're doing deserve a bullet in the head. Nothing more.

[drauch]

I think the main thing is you can't associate a studio film with an entire country.

[BulletMagnet]

Back when certain Muslims were making a fuss over the Mohammed cartoons I took the "yeah, they have the right to publish it but maybe they shouldn't if it'll cause trouble" viewpoint.

Now that people have lost their lives over it, years after the fact, I find myself in the "every newspaper on the planet should have a Mohammed cartoon smack dab on the front page tomorrow" camp.

I'm not the sort to look for trouble just for the heck of it, but those who attempt to get their way through intimidation, especially violent intimidation, deserve absolutely no consideration from the rest of the world. If some non-violent people are offended along with them, I'm afraid I'll have to chalk it up to collateral damage in this case; a big, loud "fuck you" needs to be sent to anyone who would condone such acts.

[Xyga]

The French media are concentrating on the loss of long-time much loved artists and humorists/critics (two of them I've known all my life) and the essential question: who were the killers and why exactly.

They were obviously experienced like soldiers and armed with AK's, which are not things of petty criminals or would-be-terrorist pricks, there's some kind of structured organization behind with more people.

Many theories but no solid proofs of anything yet, the prophet cartoons story is old, and even though those people at 'Charlie Hebdo' were privileged targets because of it, we're not sure this was the primary reason behind the attack.

[trap15]

Back when certain Muslims were making a fuss over the Mohammed cartoons I took the "yeah, they have the right to publish it but maybe they shouldn't if it'll cause trouble" viewpoint.

Now that people have lost their lives over it, years after the fact, I find myself in the "every newspaper on the planet should have a Mohammed cartoon smack dab on the front page tomorrow" camp.

100% agreed.

[320x240]

Although I find a lot wrong with the terrorists...

What exactly is it that you find right with the terrorists? The way they held their weapons? Their choice of footwear?

Your thoughts are nothing more than cowardice dressed as reason. Why don't you simply state your opinion outright? 'They had it coming.'

How spineless we Europeans have become! Rather than face reality we wish murder on those that tell us to stop dreaming. 'Don't rock the boat!'

[KindGrind]

I would respond pretty badly to terrorism if I had to experience it first hand.

I agree that people should say what they want, but I for one know I couldn't cope with threats. I'd definitely back down and stop doing whatever it is that piss people off.

If people are stronger than me and stand strong, more power to them. We need people that are able to do that. What happened today is truly horrific. I heard a Parisian imam criticizing the attacks (and rightly so), and feel bad for the peaceful Muslims who will get further ostracized by the actions of extremist a-holes.

My thoughts go to the French today...

[Eaglet]

We need to stand together collectively for better values.
Extremists are fucktarded idiots and represent the evil in the world (if there exists such a thing).
Grow some balls and kick these assholes' collective teeth in.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Defeatist attitudes can exit right, please.

[CStarFlare]

I don't know if there is any opinion offensive enough to justify a violent backlash.

As a matter of practicality it may be wise to avoid pissing off certain psychopaths, but I don't think anyone should be legally or morally obligated to do so anymore than gays should have to stay closeted to avoid violent backlash.

I don't suppose Charlie has a digital subscription foreigners can buy?

[KindGrind]

As a matter of practicality it may be wise to avoid pissing off certain psychopaths, but I don't think anyone should be legally or morally obligated to do so anymore than gays should have to stay closeted to avoid violent backlash

This sums up my point rather nicely.

Nothing you say can about anyone or anything should spark such violent responses. The legal system exists for people that feel were treated unfairly, but there is no place anywhere for religious, fanatic vigilantism. Yet this issue is a very complex and long-running one...

[Xyga]

Muslims who will get further ostracized

Which might have been the real objective of that attack.
There are well enough people, non-Muslim AND Muslim, who can't stand to see Muslims living in peace here in France or whatever other country where they live as a minority.
Those guys made sure they were heard and recorded shouting 'Allahu akbar' and 'we are Al Quaeda' etc, the whole perfect 'terrorist package' show, just with genuine French accent.

[BIL]

I agree with Salman Rushdie's comments, emphasis mine (part of the problem is treating religion like it's inherently loftier than all the other crap man has shat out of his ignorant brainmeat over the years).

“Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect.”

I can understand being afraid of thugs, but any condoning of their subhuman behaviour is unacceptable. The only correct response is contempt.

[Randorama]

Muslims who will get further ostracized

Which might have been the real objective of that attack.
There are well enough people, non-Muslim AND Muslim, who can't stand to see Muslims living in peace here in France or whatever other country where they live as a minority.
Those guys made sure they were heard and recorded shouting 'Allahu akbar' and 'we are Al Quaeda' etc, the whole perfect 'terrorist package' show, just with genuine French accent.

Has Charlie Hebdo ever published satire against FN, or for that matter the bigger parties? I know that they had quite a few enemies in the establishment.

and to those who seem not to know the full consequences of of the words they type...

but those who attempt to get their way through intimidation, especially violent intimidation

These terrorists and people who agree with what they're doing deserve a bullet in the head. Nothing more.

William Blum, killing hope. The same case could be argued for several other government who sent the police or the secret services against its citizens.
Once you two will study a bit of history, you will know that there are no exceptions among the western countries, though: I am not picking on the US, only.
Of course, the people who agree with "them" would be the ones who voted there, in the first place.

[320x240]

This is how a culture falls apart. Already we are doubting our eyes and ears. Next it will be the jews fault. As usual.

[Xyga]

Has Charlie Hebdo ever published satire against FN, or for that matter the bigger parties? I know that they had quite a few enemies in the establishment.

They do it all the time and make fun of everyone and everything who's an ass.

EDIT: the best quote to describe the spirit of Charlie and particularly strong sense of satire in the French culture as a whole is "castigat ridendo mores" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castigat_ridendo_mores quoted by Molière in Tartuffe and well-used in Italian comedy for instance.
But my people (well not just mine, most) have had trouble with the meaning that quote for several years now.
Sick Sad World.

[Bananamatic]

This is how a culture falls apart. Already we are doubting our eyes and ears. Next it will be the jews fault. As usual.

/pol/ is always right

[320x240]

There is nothing politically incorrect about blaming everything on the powers that be, sometimes it is the epitome of political correctness. This is one of those times, as it always is when Islam is involved.

[Eaglet]

William Blum, killing hope. The same case could be argued for several other government who sent the police or the secret services against its citizens.
Once you two will study a bit of history, you will know that there are no exceptions among the western countries, though: I am not picking on the US, only.
Of course, the people who agree with "them" would be the ones who voted there, in the first place.

This i know. But in "our" countries we at least hold the ideals of democracy and freedom of speech as one of the corner stones of modern civilization.
While it is sad that it's almost never practiced in its true form, it is still better than openly enforcing ignorance and responding to any dissent with deadly violence.
Terrorists though, individuals and groups who use violence against defenceless masses as a means to enforce and spread their cause, cannot be met with anything but force.
These people cannot be reasoned with.

[Mischief Maker]

This all reminds me of this video.

[BulletMagnet]

The same case could be argued for several other government who sent the police or the secret services against its citizens.

No argument from me; heaven knows I'd like to see more than a few of my own countrymen before a war crimes tribunal.

[JBC]

No thing is impossible to abuse. As you can die from breathing too much air, you can abuse your freedom. Speech is probably the most commonly abused freedom, a reality which lowers the quality of life in places that have it. Still, it reveals the truth of a populace & is a necessary evil. I just counter it with freedom of choice, either not too listen or take action against. Depends on what the asshole said & what I can get away with considering my freedoms.

Freedom of speech is a big joke. In most places you aren't even free to ride your bike on the sidewalk.

Edit - & btw, if it meant I never had to hear another trashy rap song or watch another ad for skanky reality TV you can take my freedom of speech.

[Rob]

if it meant I never had to hear another trashy rap song or watch another ad for skanky reality TV you can take my freedom of speech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXZxipry6kE

Do you hate the American Dream?

[Damocles]

Cool. Rappers have X-Box Live clan tags now. I expect to see FaZe Shizzle pop up shortly.

[Xyga]

Apparently the guys already have an history and did prison for having organized a 'jihad in Iraq tour' network in the early 2000's.

More important than freedom of speech debate in my eyes here is why the fuck such dangerous individuals were free ?

Euro justice is too soft on the really dangerous criminals, I'm against capital punishment, but shit can't we let the worst scum behind bars at least until they reach the age they need diapers ?

[trap15]

Also worth noting that they recently returned to France from Syria. No doubt committing jihadist terror there as well.

[Xyga]

Note they're still just suspects, but such individuals shouldn't be free whatever the case.
Same shit as with Merah, under surveillance but free of movement. WTF security fail.

[evil_ash_xero]

It's really easy to see why the far right is on the rise in Europe.

The far left won't do ANYTHING. And it seems like the far left is in control in many countries (especially Sweden).

We built Western Civilization, and we shouldn't be afraid of saying what we want, in our own countries. Especially to fucking immigrants and refugees. (and I am the son of an immigrant)
They should be the ones who are worried about what they say and do. They should be afraid of deportation.

They should be happy not to live in their parent hell hole countries. Instead...well, you have stuff like this.

I'm pretty liberal and tolerant, but these people are not worth the trouble.

Fuck 'em.

I mean, seriously....we can't say anything about their religion in their countries, and we can't even criticize them safely in our own, because we have let so many in?
This is not a good situation.

Either you can fight back, or just be like "yeah, I'll shut up....do as you wish", like a brow beaten husband.

It's not too late. You can support parties who will slow this down. Just don't let them get out of hand, because I'm sure they have "final solution" all up in their brains.

The center seems to be lost.

[Xyga]

It's really easy to see why the far right is on the rise in Europe.

The main reason the far right is on the rise in Europe is unemployment / exploding poverty and inequalities.
Stigmatization of minorities is the icing for extremist politicians and gutter-intellectuals, because it's much easier than going against supra-national political and financial institutions or shady corporate we don't know the shapes and faces to begin.

[evil_ash_xero]

I don't live in Europe, so I can't know exactly what's going on there. I do know that the unemployment thing is a big part of it. It doesn't help that many of these refugees/immigrants are on welfare. So, I can see how the far right can easily say "we don't have the money to take care of our own, and these people are dragging us down more".

But it really seems like you have a culture within a culture. They don't want to assimilate, and they don't seem to like you. And the more of them there are, the more riots, rapes, bombings....whatnot, seems to take place.

Is it such a bad thing to say "well, we should stop letting these people in, for a while". And have longer prison sentences for people who do "terrorist like" activities?
Rather than being so afraid of offending someone? Does Europe owe them housing and welfare? I don't get it.

Is this so xenophobic and racist? I think Political Correctness is going to kill us.

I mean, from what I understand, Sweden has made it somewhat illegal to criticize Immigration http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-new ... net-speech. That is...that's insane. If I'm wrong, please correct me (this could be far right fear mongering). But it seems like the far left is handing over their countries and freedoms on a platter, to people who don't even appreciate it.

I want to be tolerant...but these folks seem like some of the most intolerant people on the planet. We just feel bad for them, because they are the minority. For now, anyway. Maybe some folks should take a trip to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, and see if they have the same sympathies when they get back.