What is exactly the appeal in Yagawa's games?

[BIL]

Muh fabourite Raizing ;3

[chempop]

(also not YGW... but who cares, it’s too awesome)

[Eaglet]

Xyga: Exactly.
Bakraid honestly does look like crap. Don't know what happened with the art in that game tbh.
Garegga is a much better representation. Probably the most cohesive aesthetic i've seen in any shooting game ever.

The appeal to me is all about having a pretty simple system from the start that is augmented with randomizing factors and loads of secrets.
The randomization leads to no credit looking the same which in turn leads to enormous replayability. This is probably the most important factor for me since i usually tire of doing the same old over and over again.
Having so many random'ish factors to take into consideration leaves enormous amounts of potential for improvements thus giving the game depth.
Pushing the player to utilize all possible resources available in order to score high is also something i enjoy a lot.
Getting to the last stage in any YGW game with a good score is always exhilirating in a way that is different from any other type of 1-loop game i've ever played.
What DMC said about control probably rings true for a lot of Garegga junkies.
Feeling like you OWN bosses like Black Heart mk.2 even if they're random as fuck makes you feel like the biggest boss there ever was.
All YGW games are also heavy on long-term strategizing, unlike a lot of other STG's.

[Xyga]

Well Bakraid has its moments too, but yeah it's art is really less inspired and detailed compared to Garegga and Batrider (and Ibara/PS/MMP as well of course).

[Randorama]

Since I am having more time to play games (and uh, having a life), I'll add my two cents.

I don't like all of Yagawa games, as I adored/adore Garegga, Ibara and Muchi and feel cold about the rest.
I would say that I generally prefer Ikeda's output, and if I would only need to choose one shmup ever, it would be Batsugun or Rayforce.

However, at least for Garegga I would say that I adore it for three reasons.

First, I like the "dynamic" design of the game, and the need to carefully plan the whole run.
I think that the same feeling can be found in other games that also (e.g. Border Down, Dai Ou Jou), but in Garegga there is a flexibility that the other titles lack, mostly because of reason #2.

Second, in Garegga every action is quantified, and can be used to battle against the CPU (i.e. manipulate rank), including extends and the destruction of scenery.
In the aforementioned titles, extends can be manipulated but only in specific points: say, Border Down has ONE optimal route per colour, and that's it; in DOJ.
In Garegga, the periodic extends can be used to even (partially) improvise stage plans, as extending earlier earlier or later in a stage can allow the player to adopt plan A vs. plan B.

Third, and really a consequence of the second reason, Garegga uses all the aspects of level design in the game/scoring experience itself: destroying the scenery gives you points and medals, and overall uses more scoring sources in a more interactive way.
In most Cave games, this feature is used in a somewhat marginal way: they tried to do this in Guwange, forgot about it until Futari or so, and used it sporadically.

Besides, most Cave games are "chain everything/cancel bullets and don't bomb", an approach which places a strong emphasis on playing virtuoso and mastering one/two mechanics.
In Garegga and to a lesser extent Ibara, plays revolve around balancing several aspects at once.

I would add that anyone who likes either company's games for their looks needs a new prescription for glasses. Taito, Konami and Namco produced much more gorgeous games in the early '90s. Right now I am playing Muchi and I think that Psikyo used the same hardware in a much more efficient way (I mean, Gunbird 2 is way more gorgeous). Besides, both Yagawa and Ikeda are/were programmers, not artists...

Aside everything, both Yagawa and Ikeda are cool guys, as they like japanese BBW's, which is the reason why they produced Muchi. Isn't it obvious?

[Squire Grooktook]

(I mean, Gunbird 2 is way more gorgeous).

Not seeing it tbh. Character designs (which don't really appear during gameplay much if at all) are really the only thing that stands out about Psyiko's output aesthetically imo. Most of their scenery is really drab and colorless. Even when they ripped off Mahou Daisakusen with Dragon' Blazes setting, it was way less appealing and creative looking than the actual Mahou Daisakusen games (again, outside character designs at least). And don't even get me started on the non descript music...

[Randorama]

(I mean, Gunbird 2 is way more gorgeous).

Not seeing it tbh.

I wanted to be charitable, to be fair. If I cared about the graphics, I would have never played Tatsujin back in the day.
I do think that Cave's output worsened after a few games (Guwange was the only attractive game, as far as I am concerned).
However, I take it from my posts (the one above, and the ones in the previous years) that it's obvious I am not exactly too nit-picky about an aspect of the genre that has been hopeless for 20 years or so.

[n0rtygames]

Is there more like this?

Lots.. courtesy of Trap15

Chop U:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlYPoqOg8sc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlYPoqOg8sc

Let's kick ass together:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn10l3b--ds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktfCGA5O1ok

Also!

SHOW TIME!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T65Zmc6iWCc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn58-Nl9NYw

[gray117]

They're something a little different. Personally I don't over enjoy boss milking and suciding - seems so counter intuitive to my kleptomaniac-tidy-speedy-skill-wish-compulsion that most games generally embrace.

I guess it's like appreciating the idea s&m whilst not personally being into it...

...anyway even if you're not playing these games for score there are still generally some fantastic play to be had in them and plenty of replay/experimentation even if you're not all the way into the punishment.

I also get the impression these games and their creator kind of delight in being contrarian: the designs may have be sold/justified to production/operators as a money making mechanic but I'll be dammed if the real reason wasn't that Yawaga wanted to be a bit of a dick and punish the player... Same for goes for the slightly flippant-tongue-cheek answer to an interview/fan - yeah that interesting mechanic you like? I just did that to get your quarters.

Yawaga games? Rare examples of some excellently executed games that purposefully, rebelliously, fly in the face of the normal, contrived and often saccharine designs - but only really evident upon further inspection. Not for everyone, but the acade game genre and shmups in particular would somehow be substantially lesser without such characters at least being about.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I play shmups because I want tight challenging gameplay and because I want to live out the fantasy of being a one man army. Killing myself makes absolutely no sense in that context.

Reading through this thread, gotta say I feel the same way. Shmups to me are fun because you're dodging stuff - it's satisfying to get through a level or an entire game without getting hit. Suiciding or letting extends drop as a strategy just doesn't feel enjoyable as a game mechanic.

As much as I love the music (much of which is taken from other sources, naughty Mr. Namiki) and aesthetics, I can't stand the rank systems. I want a game that wants me to choose between low rank and low score, or challenge myself to max the rank and go for massive scores (Progear, Mushihimesama Futari - especially BL Original, DDP BL's red bar which is probably a Yagawa creation). I don't want to actively fight against the game rank like it's the antagonist. Rank is fun for me when it's something like a wave you ride - the better you do, the more the game becomes intense. Not when you're penalized for holding shot too much or collecting too many piddly powerup items, or accidentally triggering a super hard boss by getting a special powerup you didn't ask for (gee thanks Batrider).

The rank control is also obtuse to the point where it's essentially impossible to figure out without a guide (or being technical enough to look at the game code yourself!). I mean, I've played some roguelikes with esoteric mechanics, but there's enough freedom there that you can resort to safer tactics when exploring and generally learn what works and what doesn't. Reading stuff like the Garegga and Batrider guides... Yagawa rank is his sadistic wet dream in videogame form. I can understand why people who love Yagawa's stuff LOVE it. Learning all of the little shit that goes on in each game and mastering control of a system designed to fuck over the unwary has got to make you feel like a bit of a badass.

[Squire Grooktook]

What I really love most of all is the way lives work. Essentially always keeping them below a certain point (no extend hogging, can't even hold more than 3 in Batrider), but always able to make a comeback due to how frequently they drop (which you need to trigger by taking risks for greater rewards). As a result, the tension is high at pretty much every single point of the game, and you never really feel safe (not just from extra lives/resources being lost for later, but outright game over that instant), but at the same time no one mistake is ever a game over in itself and can be recovered from back to "full health" with sufficient skill and badassery. I wish all shmups were like that.

I also think Yagawa mastered the art of making bombs flashy offensive tools instead of purely defensive ones more than anyone else (unless you count Hypers as bombs, but Yagawa's are still flashier ). You use them defensively too sometimes, but I find they're generally more about scoring or taking the fight to the enemy than they are escaping from the middle of a difficult pattern.

Also!

SHOW TIME!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T65Zmc6iWCc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn58-Nl9NYw

Ironically that's Shinji Hosoe, not Manabu Namiki. Funny though that it persists in between artists.

[Shepardus]

I also think Yagawa mastered the art of making bombs flashy offensive tools instead of purely defensive ones more than anyone else (unless you count Hypers as bombs, but Yagawa's are still flashier )

BOMBABOMBABOMBABOMBABOMBABOMBABOMBA--

But really, I like that too, since you actually have to master bomb usage to master the game, rather than just letting an entire button of the game go unused for optimal play - "Like the look of the bomb? Too bad, you're not supposed to use it." I especially like Ibara's hadou gun as being an especially offense-focused tool that rewards you for collecting a full bomb.

Also agree with you about the lives. I'd also like to add something else that I like, which is the lack of any stage or all-clear bonus besides the fixed score for destroying the final boss. Instead, in Garegga and Ibara at least, at high-level play you essentially cash in your extra lives and bombs for the purposes of milking (Black Heart mk.II in Garegga, Teresa in Ibara), which in my opinion is way more awesome than suddenly getting a bunch of points at the end (the vast majority of points in some cases) and beating your score that way, because it's flashier and ties your score gain directly to something you did rather than something you didn't do (not dying). In addition, it forces the player to think about how much they're willing to risk cashing in on - sacrifice more than you can handle and you're going to end up not clearing at all. This is especially complicated in Garegga since you've still got one more boss to get through after handling Black Heart II.

[LordHypnos]

(I mean, Gunbird 2 is way more gorgeous).

Not seeing it tbh.

Not even Italy?


That being said though, I think there's a lot of better pixel art out there than Gunbird 2.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^ This reminds me of a convo I had with a friend the other day about the environmental art in God of War 1.

At it's best, like in that image, it's pretty solid and I can see how some people would like it. But even at it's best, Gunbird 2's environmental art is rarely fantastical or creative enough for my tastes (compare the H.R Giger ruins or enormous Mushroom Forest below castle skylines in Dragon Saber), and the rest seems rather drab and colorless (compare the amazingly colorful and sleek cyberpunk world in DDP SOJ, even if it lacks a bit of variety). The closest Gunbird 2 gets to that fantastical/otherworldly environmental art are the end-game ruins, which are cool, but still a bit drab and colorless, as well as too little too late.

Plus, aren't a lot of the larger sprites in Gunbird 2 pre-rendered? I can tolerate pre-renders at times (even if they're pretty much always inferior to hand drawn pixel art), but it's just icing on the cake for why I don't find Psiyko's in-game art half as memorable as many of its competitors.

[LordHypnos]

^^^ This reminds me of a convo I had with a friend the other day about the environmental art in God of War 1.

At it's best, like in that image, it's pretty solid and I can see how some people would like it. But even at it's best, Gunbird 2's environmental art is rarely fantastical or creative enough for my tastes (compare the H.R Giger ruins or enormous Mushroom Forest below castle skylines in Dragon Saber), and the rest seems rather drab and colorless (compare the amazingly colorful and sleek cyberpunk world in DDP SOJ, even if it lacks a bit of variety). The closest Gunbird 2 gets to that fantastical/otherworldly environmental art are the end-game ruins, which are cool, but still a bit drab and colorless, as well as too little too late.

Plus, aren't a lot of the larger sprites in Gunbird 2 pre-rendered? I can tolerate pre-renders at times (even if they're pretty much always inferior to hand drawn pixel art), but it's just icing on the cake for why I don't find Psiyko's in-game art half as memorable as many of its competitors.

Yeah, very true. It's a very detailed depiction of venice, but not very imaginitive at all (Though, as you mentioned the character designs are pretty creative, but so are Raizing's character designs, at least in Batrider.)

And yes, IIRC Gunbird 2 uses some prerenders. In fact, I'd actually say it's a pretty much wholesale downgrade from the art in the original Gunbird. Much more stylized, but still keeps the details.

oops, looks like I messed up on the image editing, and left a white border on two sides >_<
Both do have one thing I like, though I don't think it's unique to Psikyo games, and that is random bystanders in the background (looks like only screenshot 2 of the ones I posted lol). Still perhaps not terribly imaginitive, though. Certainly not compared to Salamander or R-Type.

That being said, I pretty much don't even pay attention to shmup graphics beyond just a cursory appraisal. All about the gameplay for me.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^Actually that looks way better. I might have discounted Gunbird 1 due to only playing it a few times. It has that crunchy detailed pixely look over 2's somewhat overly smooth pre-renders, and actually now that I think about it, it had decent stage variety aesthetically (that gigantic factory, the castle, the ruins, etc.). Still not beating out something like Dragon Saber or Mahou Daissakusen for me though.

That being said, I pretty much don't even pay attention to shmup graphics beyond just a cursory appraisal. All about the gameplay for me.

I agree, but I have a bit different philosophy to it.

My feelings is that gameplay, aesthetics, story, etc. all appeal to different sides of the brain. Occasionally they can all combine to create a "more than the sum of its parts" feel, but even that is a different kind of appeal IMO. I tend to analyze each aspect of a game and come to it based on what it has that I currently want. I don't mind playing a stick figure game if it has a completely unique style of dodging that isn't found elsewhere, but at the same time I could see myself playing a merely decent game if the aesthetic really intrigues me.

The only exception is music. You can't really get the feel of the visual aesthetic from screenshots, but I see absolutely no reason to play a boring game for the music when I could just listen to the ost.

[DEL]

cave hermit wrote:

Yagawa games aren't just games, they are holy relics that link us to the great spirit of YGW himself. With every medal we chain, our souls slowly become one with Yagawa. With every suicide, our life-force drains into Yagawa. As we continue to play and improve, we slowly change and reform ourselves in our Lord's image. We shall become a single collective mind, spread across a sea of Yagawa.
What is a drop of rain, compared to the storm? What is a thought, compared to a mind? Our unity is full of wonder, which your tiny individualism... cannot even conceive.

And when the transformation of the believers is complete, we shall all travel to the great Pachinko Parlor in the sky and have mass orgies amongst ourselves. From the pile of Yagawas, the sound of balls slapping against flesh will echo across the horizon in a grand symphony as the ripe scent of armpit sweat consumes the air. It will be glorious.

^Beautiful poetry

Rando wrote:

Aside everything, both Yagawa and Ikeda are cool guys, as they like japanese BBW's, which is the reason why they produced Muchi. Isn't it obvious?

^Quoted for truth.

----------------------------------------
For me, I have a love/hate relationship with his games. He loves to handicap the player instead of just plain making the games hard in the first place. I made a small vid on it called "Yagawa must be a Golfer".