Cave games ranked by difficulty

[Bananamatic]

sdoj novice expert seems to be all over the damn place

for example the st4 boss opener is pretty much the same as on arcade and someone playing novice doesn't have a slightest chance against it

[Strikers1945guy]

I still would argue that DFK BL Strong style has to be one of the hardest cave clears. It basically starts with 2nd loop patters right away.

[Bananamatic]

I still would argue that DFK BL Strong style has to be one of the hardest cave clears. It basically starts with 2nd loop patters right away.

it also has only one loop, basically everything is bullet cancel and even the TLB is beaten through cheese rather than dodging

[Strikers1945guy]

I still would argue that DFK BL Strong style has to be one of the hardest cave clears. It basically starts with 2nd loop patters right away.

it also has only one loop, basically everything is bullet cancel and even the TLB is beaten through cheese rather than dodging

With that in mind I always drive up the Reddo Gauge thing and try and dodge half the patterns for fun so Im sure Im making the game harder on myself than it needs to be.

[leadwing85]

thread up to this point was a pretty interesting read, seems some titles are moreless universally accepted as easy or hard, and then theres a hand full kinda in the gray area. if you don't count the FOS (fullofshit) peoples opinions.

nothing new that hasn't already been said, but ill still add my easy and hard picks:

Easy - deathsmiles, aki katana, DDP DFK arcade

Hard - DDP DOJ WL, ketsui, ibara

[pokemon123]

One more question. What makes BL daioujou so much easier compared to wl daioujou. I know bl is considered a bit easier however I read that it was subtle. Is it really a lot more apparent than that?

[Shepardus]

Here's a general overview of the differences. The most noticeable change is that the hyper meter charges faster. If you manage to get to the second loop you get to keep your extra lives in BL, while in WL you lose all of them. There's some other stuff too but it's more subtle.

[Skykid]

One more question. What makes BL daioujou so much easier compared to wl daioujou. I know bl is considered a bit easier however I read that it was subtle. Is it really a lot more apparent than that?

No. Primarily you have to tackle them differently and BL is simply a better tuned game, but you need to learn both fairly well before you understand why.

If you're talking second loop BL is markedly easier because of the carry over of life stock.

[leadwing85]

One more question. What makes BL daioujou so much easier compared to wl daioujou. I know bl is considered a bit easier however I read that it was subtle. Is it really a lot more apparent than that?

WL has late hyper item drop bug and hyper overflow bug (excess hyper wasted and not added to next gauge), bosses have denser and faster patterns, 1 of the stages impossible to full chain (also bug), rank is more intense.

and I haven't seen any proof or tested it yet, but I suspect that the hitbox is bigger on wl (even if only by a handful of pixles) and also that there is a small amount more allowance on chaining in black label


all in all, id say the most in your face difference is the hyper, rank and bosses.

[iconoclast]

White Label should be fully chainable since 1-3 can be done, although it looks like it'd be extremely difficult to do even somewhat consistently.

The biggest difference is that you have almost no room for error in WL's second loop (especially with Exy; Leinyan gives you more breathing room). Even dropping your chain can end your run because you need to have a precise amount of hyper meter at certain points. Scoring is also far more balanced in WL.

[Jonst]

I'd like to hear why people think akai katana is so easy. I'm not entirely disagreeing but I think it's at least medium difficulty. What version are people talking about? And If it's so easy, why isn't it in everyone's 1cc list? I've always been amazed at how many people still don't understand the scoring in any mode...

[leadwing85]

I'd like to hear why people think akai katana is so easy. I'm not entirely disagreeing but I think it's at least medium difficulty. What version are people talking about? And If it's so easy, why isn't it in everyone's 1cc list? I've always been amazed at how many people still don't understand the scoring in any mode...

how does one make a 1CC list? O.o

[Jonst]

^ I wouldn't be able to explain it... I sort of understand it, someone helped me do mine!
I'm sure someone will be able to answer you though.

[trap15]

I'd like to hear why people think akai katana is so easy. I'm not entirely disagreeing but I think it's at least medium difficulty. What version are people talking about? And If it's so easy, why isn't it in everyone's 1cc list? I've always been amazed at how many people still don't understand the scoring in any mode...

It's because nobody actually plays these games, they just spew rhetoric that they've heard. The "Akai Katana is easy" thing is just a dumb bandwagon everyone jumped on because they couldn't figure out the game themselves because watching an attract mode and putting some thought into a game is hard.

[Jonst]

As I suspected.Thanks for clearing that up trap! It feels like a waste of time to try and convince people that ak is worth investing time and effort in to...

[dunpeal2064]

Don't let that stop you! No one wants to give DFK 1.5 the time of day, but that didn't stop some folks here from tearing into it pretty damn well. Keep at it and who knows, your scores may just inspire someone else to give it a good try.

[Bananamatic]

As I suspected.Thanks for clearing that up trap! It feels like a waste of time to try and convince people that ak is worth investing time and effort in to...

just because a game is stupidly easy doesn't mean you can't play it for score or invest time in it

[Jonst]

Yeah, I don't let other people's opinions sway what games I should play. I play what I enjoy. I've had plenty of fun with most of cave's games ak being a particular favourite, I usually revisit it every year to try and improve my scores on all modes. All of these games become even better when you get to the point that they really click and you fully understand the scoring and stratergy behind them and you start to see progression and scores doubling... But that all takes time and dedication and it helps to like the game you're playing!

[Jonst]

As I suspected.Thanks for clearing that up trap! It feels like a waste of time to try and convince people that ak is worth investing time and effort in to...

just because a game is stupidly easy doesn't mean you can't play it for score or invest time in it

Well, it may be stupidly easy for you, but I remember plenty of posts where people thought it was really hard/impossible! I don't agree with either view tbh. It's just a really fun game. As people have said countless times, people's skill levels are all over the place. You're a top tier player, so I'm sure it is really easy for you. I don't have much trouble with it either but it did intially take some work on my part, but when I got the game, I hadn't been playing these games for long and didn't know a great deal about cave games in general.

EDIT: of course, if a game is stupidly easy you can still play it for score and invest time in it!

[Erppo]

WL has late hyper item drop bug and hyper overflow bug (excess hyper wasted and not added to next gauge)

What's excess hyper and what item bug?

[leadwing85]

I'd like to hear why people think akai katana is so easy. I'm not entirely disagreeing but I think it's at least medium difficulty. What version are people talking about? And If it's so easy, why isn't it in everyone's 1cc list? I've always been amazed at how many people still don't understand the scoring in any mode...

It's because nobody actually plays these games, they just spew rhetoric that they've heard. The "Akai Katana is easy" thing is just a dumb bandwagon everyone jumped on because they couldn't figure out the game themselves because watching an attract mode and putting some thought into a game is hard.

or because your invincible the whole game pretty much (especially if your playing it correctly), and for the brief moments you run out of energy you can bomb and build it back up if you cant manage some dodging

personally, I prefer slash mode, I consider it a bit harder and more fun. 'kashink shinkshinkshinkshink' lol

WL has late hyper item drop bug and hyper overflow bug (excess hyper wasted and not added to next gauge)

What's excess hyper and what item bug?

the item drop bug is when you have built up a hyper, and your not in hyper mode ofc, it takes like half the stage sometimes for the damn hyper medal to drop lol. when I first started playing doj I just thought that was how it was, or that they dropped only at set intervals (midboss, stage start, ect) turns out its a bug lol.
the gauge bug is like if you got a high chain that will produce a hyper medal 'and then some', the extra doesn't go to filling a new bar as it should, it just gets wasted.

I hope I was able to explain that right lol, I don't have a super expensive capture device, but ive been thinking of making a video of the differences and bugs and such in wl vs bl. doesn't seem like its been done before

[Jonst]

^ all correct. For those that know how to play the game. My question remains though, aside from personsl taste, why isn't it standard in everyone's clear list's if its so easy?

[leadwing85]

^ all correct. For those that know how to play the game. My question remains though, aside from personsl taste, why isn't it standard in everyone's clear list's if its so easy?

maybe all those people are playing novice and then think they are boss lollll

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

This might sound stupid but I just get confused with Akai Katana, often I just hit the wrong button and it leads to disaster. It feels really unintuitive to me.

[Cagar]

^ all correct. For those that know how to play the game. My question remains though, aside from personsl taste, why isn't it standard in everyone's clear list's if its so easy?

It's a hori, and people don't seem to like the mix of bullet hell + hori.
I guess it's just that people don't play it. It isn't on mame either

[Erppo]

the item drop bug is when you have built up a hyper, and your not in hyper mode ofc, it takes like half the stage sometimes for the damn hyper medal to drop lol. when I first started playing doj I just thought that was how it was, or that they dropped only at set intervals (midboss, stage start, ect) turns out its a bug lol.
the gauge bug is like if you got a high chain that will produce a hyper medal 'and then some', the extra doesn't go to filling a new bar as it should, it just gets wasted.

Do you have any examples of the item bug because I have a hard time believing in it? I've never seen it myself, or heard anyone else encountering it. If it was true, it would make consistent routing of the game impossible seeing how important proper hyper scheduling is. The excess hyper thing is obviously dependent on the item bug too since there's no other way that situation could occur.

[leadwing85]

the item drop bug is when you have built up a hyper, and your not in hyper mode ofc, it takes like half the stage sometimes for the damn hyper medal to drop lol. when I first started playing doj I just thought that was how it was, or that they dropped only at set intervals (midboss, stage start, ect) turns out its a bug lol.
the gauge bug is like if you got a high chain that will produce a hyper medal 'and then some', the extra doesn't go to filling a new bar as it should, it just gets wasted.

Do you have any examples of the item bug because I have a hard time believing in it? I've never seen it myself, or heard anyone else encountering it. If it was true, it would make consistent routing of the game impossible seeing how important proper hyper scheduling is. The excess hyper thing is obviously dependent on the item bug too since there's no other way that situation could occur.

sure thing! as I said before, I don't really have a awesome capture device, but I can most definitely make a watchable play. after the holiday ill try and make something snazzy, like a side by side WL BL and comment on the differences as the happen and such, might be fun. I can assure you though, even though it seems not well known for whatever reason (actually the reason probably being most everyone plays BL only). one person I can say would vouch is softdrink, we've discussed it a few times, and hes even verified a few other things that I had suspected but wasn't 100% on. though it has its faults, ill pick WL to play any day, and I do

in the mean time, till I can work up a video, ill share a excerpt from the site Hardcore Gaming 101. its written a bit better than I could explain it lol.

"Gameplay Differences

DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou Black Label made a number of changes, but two of them stand out the most. The first major change is the ability to choose a one or two loop game after the selection screen. If players select a one loop game, they will automatically face Taisabachi and Hibachi after finishing Stage 5. Players no longer lose their extra lives and bombs when starting the second loop. Players can now continue while in the second loop, making it possible to credit-feed through and see all of the harder patterns, as well as Hibachi himself. Many players feel that the game's Hyper Gauge now fills faster than before, and this is true only because it wasn’t working properly in the original version. Before, if a player picked up a bee icon worth 30% Hyper while at 99% full Hyper Gauge, they would gain 129% Hyper, enough to generate an item. However, the extra 29% did not carry over to the new bar, and was just thrown away. In Black Label, that extra 29% is now properly carried over into the next Hyper bar. The rank increase from Hypering has also been reduced, with the maximum cap itself also being raised. Because extra lives are now kept during the loop, and the increase in Hypers, both difficulty and bullet speed rank systems now behave a little differently than before. These subtle changes actually lead to the second major change in Black Label, which is that the first loop has become easier, with slower bullets and smaller patterns, while the second loop's difficulty has been increased in Black Label. Some visual bugs were fixed as well, such as the counter only being able to display four digits, and would roll over if it exceeded 9999 HITs. Additionally, the chaining system is slightly less strict than before."

literally just copy/pasted lol, but ive given credit to HCG101, so I don't see a problem.

edit: DOJ is my favorite stg of all time! lol, ive bugged stgweekly about doing an episode on wl quite a few times lol, I think its an underrated game to be honest

[pokemon123]

Huh really? On many forums I saw daioujou in alot of the top spots for best cave game and favoruite stg's. Also on this popularity poll on this forum I heard it ranked 4th.

I would like daioujou if it weren't for it's brutal difficulty.

so yeah daioujou white label definitely the hardest for me(althouugh i've only played bug princess and daioujou and a little bit of espagaluda.)

[iconoclast]

Before, if a player picked up a bee icon worth 30% Hyper while at 99% full Hyper Gauge, they would gain 129% Hyper, enough to generate an item. However, the extra 29% did not carry over to the new bar, and was just thrown away.

This seems more like a design choice than a bug to me. But even if it is a bug, it works that way 100% of the time so you still have to plan your routes around it. The same can be said for another difference between WL and BL, which is the ability to chain invincibility. In WL, if you hyper immediately after bombing, you won't have any invincibility. You have to wait until you're vulnerable again before using your hyper if you want the invincibility that comes with it. Makes Hibachi a little bit trickier.

[Skykid]

edit: DOJ is my favorite stg of all time! lol, ive bugged stgweekly about doing an episode on wl quite a few times lol, I think its an underrated game to be honest

It's the godliest shmup of them all. I don't think it's underrated very often, it's just many people can't break into it.

These subtle changes actually lead to the second major change in Black Label, which is that the first loop has become easier, with slower bullets and smaller patterns, while the second loop's difficulty has been increased in Black Label.

I certainly don't think BL has slower bullets and smaller patterns at all, it's just WL has more punishing rank for hyper usage, no missing and chaining. Push BL with good play and it quickly becomes aggressive to the point where I struggle to see much difference in patterns and such, and I dabbled with both versions concurrently for a while.