What is exactly the appeal in Yagawa's games?

[Pretas]

Yaaaaaa Garegga's music is GODLY

Largely swiped from various Detroit Techno tracks, and Namiki swiped a tune verbatim from J-metal/punk band Cocobat Crunch for Batrider's "Chop U!".

[ACSeraph]

I absolutely hate the concept of suiciding. It goes against my very nature, and as a result I just cannot enjoy games where that is a major mechanic. I prefer games where even a single death has an incredibly negative impact on your score.

I don't hate Yagawa games, but I can't see myself ever getting into their score play.

[cave hermit]

To be honest I think the concept of suiciding is really counter intuitive, but on the other hand whenever I die I can just tell myself I meant to do that

[professor ganson]

Besides being highly addictive, Battle Garegga and Ibara feel insanely deep, almost like the world we live in-- always something more to learn.

[cave hermit]

Yaaaaaa Garegga's music is GODLY

Largely swiped from various Detroit Techno tracks, and Namiki swiped a tune verbatim from J-metal/punk band Cocobat Crunch for Batrider's "Chop U!".

He's right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQv3dCkY2Tk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWKns5DYRDw

[Icarus]

To be honest I think the concept of suiciding is really counter intuitive, but on the other hand whenever I die I can just tell myself I meant to do that

It's only counter-intuitive if you don't learn to treat your lives like any other resource to be consumed.
With the exception of Pink Sweets, these games give you a ton of lives for a very specific purpose.

[Ikazu-san]

I like Garegga because it can and does throw down my "dying with bombs on hand is a mortal sin" habit.

[ACSeraph]

It's only counter-intuitive if you don't learn to treat your lives like any other resource to be consumed.
With the exception of Pink Sweets, these games give you a ton of lives for a very specific purpose.

It's a personal problem, but I can't think this way. Even when playing for score a big part of me still thinks of these games as an adventure. I'm one man fighting a massive army on a mission to kill the enemy leader and save the universe. Purposely running my ship into a zako and dying runs totally counter to that.

Can you imagine Stallone taking a bullet halfway through Rambo II and pathetically bleeding out so that the enemies will feel sorry for him and start shooting less?

[Icarus]

Can you imagine Stallone taking a bullet halfway through Rambo II and pathetically bleeding out so that the enemies will feel sorry for him and start shooting less?

Not a very good analogy, to be honest.

It's a personal problem, but I can't think this way.

That means it's your own problem, not a fault with the game itself.
If you have trouble understanding the concept of sacrificing your lives and collecting only what is necessary to progress, then you have a problem with being able to adapt to the ever-shifting nature of these games. Being made to think on your feet and consider every little element of the game as it pans out is a big reason why I value YGW's output above all others.

[MathU]

Don't really see the appeal myself. Graphics in half of Yagawa's games are boring to pretty shite, especially the backgrounds and the entirety of Battle Garegga and Bakraid. Music's not so hot either, most stages tend to sound the same.

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Are you blind and deaf?

Bakraid has a pretty dull soundtrack to be fair. Stage 7's theme is the only one that stands out for me through the whole game.

[chempop]

It is just like real war. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a battalion, or in this case a plane or genie girl riding a flying carpet in order to weaken the enemy forces (or trick them into easing up because they think you are weak and killable).

[CStarFlare]

Yaaaaaa Garegga's music is GODLY

Largely swiped from various Detroit Techno tracks, and Namiki swiped a tune verbatim from J-metal/punk band Cocobat Crunch for Batrider's "Chop U!".

He's right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQv3dCkY2Tk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWKns5DYRDw

Is there more like this? It's very interesting and kind of explains why I like Garegga's soundtrack a lot and his other games have like one or two decent tracks max.

[n0rtygames]

Is there more like this?

Lots.. courtesy of Trap15

Chop U:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlYPoqOg8sc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlYPoqOg8sc

Let's kick ass together:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn10l3b--ds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktfCGA5O1ok

[Mortificator]

If you have trouble understanding the concept of sacrificing your lives and collecting only what is necessary to progress, then you have a problem with being able to adapt to the ever-shifting nature of these games.

Nothing in Seraph's post says he doesn't understand the concept. I think we all understand the concept, at this point; it's not 1996 anymore. He's saying the concept is unappealing to him.

[To Far Away Times]

I couldn't give a crap about Garegga, but I love APB and Batrider. Both of those games have a normal course that can be played and enjoyed without knowledge of an obscure ranking system. They also have pretty sweet production values.

[Cagar]

I hate Yagawa's games. I have given 'the last chance' to battle garegga infinite times, and that chance has never delivered.
Literally the only good thing about the game for me is the art & music.
Gameplay itself feels unsatisfying and dull, and scoring requires you to literally study the game. Study. Like a school book. On the internet.
I know this thread is not just about battle garegga but meh, it seems to be the epitome of YGW. I've played others too

[ACSeraph]

That means it's your own problem, not a fault with the game itself.

I know, that's why I explicitly stated it was a personal problem. I definitely can understand the merits of the system when viewed only in gameplay terms, my point is that I also appreciate the aesthetic, adventurous side of the genre. I play shmups because I want tight challenging gameplay and because I want to live out the fantasy of being a one man army. Killing myself makes absolutely no sense in that context. Just trying to explain why some people with an appreciation for the genre might not join the church of Yagawa.

It is just like real war. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a battalion, or in this case a plane or genie girl riding a flying carpet in order to weaken the enemy forces (or trick them into easing up because they think you are weak and killable).

Nice rationalization

I'll try to follow this mindset next time I give one a go. I tend to identify more directly with the character I'm playing rather than thinking of myself as the heartless colonel.

---

Just a side thought, but rather than a game where controlling the rank to survive while balancing rank increasing item pickups for high score, isn't a game where you purposely drive it up to insane heights for a higher payout way more badass? That kind of game gives me much more of an "I am death incarnate" vibe.

[Squire Grooktook]

I really like the idea of not having some convoluted overlying system for scoring (ie any Ikeda game, chaining, chips in Ketsui, etc.) and just having a simpler overall system (medal chaining) and little unique scoring techniques and tricks per stage. Makes it feel simple and intuitive but gives you something different to do each stage with a potentially sky high skill ceiling on a lot of them.

I also like the dodging in some of his games. Some really unique hazards and patterns, nice deal of randomness. Overall pretty fun stuff.

[MathU]

Just a side thought, but rather than a game where controlling the rank to survive while balancing rank increasing item pickups for high score, isn't a game where you purposely drive it up to insane heights for a higher payout way more badass? That kind of game gives me much more of an "I am death incarnate" vibe.

Gotta agree there. As a fan of Yagawa's games I have to concede that killing yourself in order to prevent a game from kicking your ass is a terribly unintuitive mechanic. Hellsinker is how you do adaptive difficulty the right way.

[Shepardus]

Just a side thought, but rather than a game where controlling the rank to survive while balancing rank increasing item pickups for high score, isn't a game where you purposely drive it up to insane heights for a higher payout way more badass? That kind of game gives me much more of an "I am death incarnate" vibe.

Top-tier players do that in Battle Garegga, for the purposes of milking Black Heart II's grenades (at least with ships that can milk the grenades effectively). If you're trying to do that you need to drive up your rank starting from around stage 6, and hoard lives and bombs so you can use the bombs to milk the grenades, then commit suicide with the lives you've saved up to get more bombs, so you can milk even more grenades. There's a similar milking pattern for the last boss of Ibara, where the higher your rank is the more spiky flower-things are released that you can milk for medals.

Crimzon Clover's Boost Mode is also kind of what you describe, where there's a direct tradeoff between staying in break mode to score, and keeping the "rank" at a manageable level.

[cicada88]

He programmed Recca.

[DMC]

It's about taking control imo.

At first, the game is in control and adjusts the difficulty so that it is suitable for you.
If you start well the game lets you know that you're not that special and increases the difficulty so that you get a challenge. The game is telling you: Why don't you try hard?
If you start poorly the game feels pity for you and makes itself a bit easier to give you some incentive to keep playing.

At some point though you get more experienced, tables are turning and you start to get in control.
If you feel confident that you can clear a stage with no extra life in stock you can cross that mental barrier and actually decide to suicide a life and make the latter part of the game easier.
...and at the highest level, if clearing things is easy enough, you adjust the difficulty so that rank increases heavily (more enemies etc leads to a potential hi score increase). Basically it is now you that tell the game why don't you try hard?

In other words, it's a a 2 by 2 design (whether you or the game is in control and whether difficulty is increased or decreased). It's a very elegant way of making a game that is flexible and dynamic in terms of difficulty. (which most certainly is a response to the issue of STGs in the early-90s having very fixed difficulty levels and either being too easy or too hard)

[Captain]

The appeal of Yagawa's games is that it adds a layer of strategy to already-nice gameplay.

Also, Yagawa.

[Casey120]

I like some of of the stuff like suicide for rank control and boss milking, pcb reset between games for rank to normalize is a bit extreme though .
Thank god for zakk roms .

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

He is.

BURN THE HERETIC !!!

- among the most beautiful and refined low-res pixel art graphics ever, imaginative settings including fucking A steam/dieselpunk
- wonderful music tracks even back to Recca, fitting the setting perfectly in almost every level
- excellent gameplay doubled with incredibly intricate and hidden mechanics if you look for them like old school rpg side-quests
- manic but without fucking useless walls of bullets filling the screen for nothing from stage one to credits

Of course the YGW games aren't perfect, a few empty/ugly backgrounds, some tracks we could turn off (i.e Pink Sweets stage 1 2), some sluggish ships (not all and definitely not every game), and questionable rank control methods you are almost forced to use and learn with a guide (so what? thousands of games require guides)

I can understand people don't like those for various reasons, taste or because they just can't get into the weird mechanics, or some of the other flaws... still, none of those are major flaws overshadowing the fantastic package each of these games is.
Saying otherwise, questioning the pharaonic quality of the YGW games, that do stand at the top of the shmup world with Cave productions, is profoundly dishonest and unacceptable !

I'm lighting the fires now.

You and I must have different ideas of what makes pixel art awesome... Yagawa's games do have the odd beautiful sprite, and some of the bosses look excellent, no doubt about it. Still, in their entirety, no Raizing game can hold a candle to Metal Slug 3, Demon Front or Street Fighter 3 (all of which include super fluid animation, which is a lot harder to make look good than static warships). Also, some of the settings are nice, Battle Garegga and Bakraid just seem very generic to me.

As for the rest, I don't think anybody can seriously doubt that Yagawa's games have certain qualities (I never said they are bad video games; personally I like the odd game of Batrider and Dimahoo, probably because they have less generic graphics/ design) but it's still laughable when his fanboys imply or state outright how objectively superior his games are to everything else on the shmupmarket (obviously not talking about you here, Xyga). Some people just don't like your favourite games, deal with it mate.

PS: general question: does anybody else honestly think the necessity to milk bosses for minutes is a good idea/ fun? it rather feels like a necessary but unintended exploit to me, but even if it was intended, what stupid idea... played shitloads of Esprade back in the day but that always pissed me off.

[Zaarock]

I like that the core scoring systems are simple without crazy multipliers, but there's a lot of little tricks to learn for good scoring routes and just survival. Using all your abilities like bombing is encouraged without making survival easy.

I'm probably in the minority but I think boss milking can be fun if the game is designed for it. If the boss has a myriad of forms it goes through as you destroy parts or over time it can be very fun, just make for a longer fight. Whereas if bosses only switched between one or two attacks for a long time then of course it would get dull.

Hellsinker is how you do adaptive difficulty the right way.

I think it has good ideas but the difficulty doesn't scale nearly enough. The bullet patterns in the game are easy compared to most manic shooters and most can be macro-dodged or ignored. A little more bullet speed hardly makes the patterns become much more difficult. If you have a reliable strategy at a certain rank it probably works on any other one. Going from minimum to maximum rank can also only take a minute or two. I wonder how it would work if the difficulty scaled a lot more, it's strange considering how brutal Radio Zonde is..

[Xyga]

You and I must have different ideas of what makes pixel art awesome... Yagawa's games do have the odd beautiful sprite, and some of the bosses look excellent, no doubt about it. Still, in their entirety, no Raizing game can hold a candle to Metal Slug 3, Demon Front or Street Fighter 3 (all of which include super fluid animation, which is a lot harder to make look good than static warships). Also, some of the settings are nice, Battle Garegga and Bakraid just seem very generic to me.

It's definitely not how I see it, to me most of the YGW games = most daring, batshit insane orgies of detailed and beautiful sprites in your face and still with a meaning (well there were some accidents in terms of visibility with Garegga or Ibara but no game's perfect), it's raining hot metal and I can see the screws and cables: 100% talking directly to my mind. Generic ? Never ! For someone who's into the genre they're masterpieces.
The bosses are either magnificent and intimidating, or outrageous, or everything at once, but never lame in my eyes. Even the toys in PS are pure provocation considering how brutal the game is.
Some backgrounds are empty yes but that happens with many shmups which have very busy screens anyway (the thouhou backgrounds are just plain shit 3D and it's still okay, it's not like we're really watching the scenery anyway) then many other are incredibly detailed, those are practically the majority.
And when it's not serious atmosphere stuff à la Garegga I find myself to like the wackiness of PS and MMP, or the abusive-fantasy Mahou, all incredible works, some equally or even better designed than Garegga in some aspects.

Comparing other game's pixel-art quality is fine but those you mention I don't put them in the same category, well MS maybe but 3 isn't the best example (1 definitely is the standard) and certainly the best Nazca-designed stuff stands at the top with some of the Toaplan, Irem, or even Technosoft or Psikyo designs, but they're not shmups.
Demon Front is behind all those IMO (I don't like many of the color tones they chose), and if we have to talk about a really non-shmup...although SF 3.3 has got incredible character details, stunning animation, and godly fighting engine, I find most of the characters ridiculously ugly, I hate the musics and even most backgrounds. It's probably the best fighting game ever made by the most competent developers, but with shit taste (in my view of course).

So to summarize: to me what's top-grade 2D for a shmup (or a side-scrolling action game even though it's OT), is an orgy of beautiful and detailed sprites, and in that discipline Raizing games certainly do stand at the top together with the other mentioned best-looking and great atmospheric shmups.

[Cagar]

Yagawa worshipers always remind me of the same type of people that modern 3rd strike players are to fighting game communities: delusional elitists.

[ptoing]

You and I must have different ideas of what makes pixel art awesome... Yagawa's games do have the odd beautiful sprite, and some of the bosses look excellent, no doubt about it. Still, in their entirety, no Raizing game can hold a candle to Metal Slug 3, Demon Front or Street Fighter 3 (all of which include super fluid animation, which is a lot harder to make look good than static warships). Also, some of the settings are nice, Battle Garegga and Bakraid just seem very generic to me.

As a professional pixel artist I think I can speak on this with a bit of authority. The art in all the Yagawa games is very solid, not outstanding, but better than average by a good margin. There are actually lots of little animations like gunports opening and the like, which are not super hard to do, but there is a good level of attention to detail.

Dimahoo I think can hold a candle to games like the Metal Slugs and those other games you mentioned. One thing that can be said about Raizing games is that the quality of art in each is consistent. This can not be said about Street Fighter 3 for example. Which has some awesome animation, a lot of good animation, and some bad rotoscoping (Elena = bad).

You can also bet your ass that the teams of those other games were quite a bit bigger than the ones for the Raizing games. Esp. Demon Front and Street Fighter.

Bakraid is somewhat generic as far as setting goes, I agree there. But there are not many shmups that have a similar atmosphere to Garegga.

As far as Gameplay goes, I enjoy all the games YGW made at Raizing, as well as Muchi Muchi Pork. Have not played a lot of Pink Sweets and Ibara. But even though (as YGW said himself) a lot of the dynamics of the games are there for money making reasons, they work out in such a way that they do not make the games unfair, and even make them interesting, or at least less static than most other shmups.

But I also think that it would be possible to take a lot of the design principles of YGW games, including the rank stuff, make them a bit less opaque and you would have somewhat better games.

[DMC]

Dimahoo has been mentioned a couple of times but, it bears mentioning, is not a Yagawa game. Where is the Toyama Elitist Club I ask- the next cool thing!

I dont think fans of Yagawa are any more elitists than fans of (recent) Cave, but I guess most STG players with some sort of dignity are elitists.

Boss-milking in Pink Sweets is not at all like boss milking in most others shooters like say Esp.ra.de. In PS, boss-milking is very dynamic, you choose how intense you want it to be, both the amount of bullets it spits at you and the degree of rank increase. And each fight gets more and more intense towards the end as bullet amount and speed increase towards the climax. I dont know what's up with stage 1 boss milking though. :/ Stage 2 Madball in BG has also aged a little me thinks. But in general, Yagawa makes very good boss battles relative to other developers that make them too static and unengaging imo.

I don't know why he decided to do loops in MMP though, not his decision maybe?