Do you like pickups (not powerups) in shmups?

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HydrogLox
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Re: Do you like pickups (not powerups) in shmups?

Post by HydrogLox »

Captain wrote:Good - Items with secret or difficult requirements.
Given the game's conceit it might make sense to envelop high challenge areas that contain secret pickups and high scoring potential in a "warp dampening field" - i.e. you can warp in but you can't warp out until the field ends - basically making it a high risk/high scoring area that you cannot quickly escape out of (other than by dying - if you die you could re-spawn on the other side).

And while you want to encourage changing sides your could also add another "management" aspect - a warp gauge that has to be recharged before you can warp. If it is too generous it would be superfluous - it should be just restrictive enough that you have to plan its use when you traverse the stage. A neophyte would typically want to have at least one warp in reserve on the gauge at all times for that panic warp: on the other hand when entering a side with an empty warp gauge you should be greeted by some dangerous/tough/high value "bonus" enemies - encouraging high scoring players to warp often in order to boost their score.
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Stilghar
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Re: Do you like pickups (not powerups) in shmups?

Post by Stilghar »

HydrogLox wrote: Given the game's conceit it might make sense to envelop high challenge areas that contain secret pickups and high scoring potential in a "warp dampening field" - i.e. you can warp in but you can't warp out until the field ends - basically making it a high risk/high scoring area that you cannot quickly escape out of (other than by dying - if you die you could re-spawn on the other side).
This could be really interesting for bosses. Using a warp dampening field so that the player has to attack certain parts (shoot the core!) of the boss without the possibility of warping for a brief period.

Tying the amount of jumps/warps to a gauge or energy level is something we already tried in the early pre-alphas of the game and while on paper looks interesting it sucked the fun out of it (at least in our opinion). Even novice players liked the feeling of warping whenever they wanted and something like this prevented it for them. It could work for hardcore players but it could spoil the game for many. What we have seen is that advanced players already warp like crazy, simply because they don't want to allow enemies on any side go by. So the point is encourage novice players to jump frequently instead of using the mechanic as a panic warp only.
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Captain
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Re: Do you like pickups (not powerups) in shmups?

Post by Captain »

Just add as a hard mode :D
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HydrogLox
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Re: Do you like pickups (not powerups) in shmups?

Post by HydrogLox »

Stilghar wrote:This could be really interesting for bosses. Using a warp dampening field so that the player has to attack certain parts (shoot the core!) of the boss without the possibility of warping for a brief period.
I was actually thinking of using the "warp dampening field" to make pickups more interesting. Lets call a dangerous area covered by a warp dampening field "the Guauntlet". Then for example:
  • Run 100% of the Gauntlet without dying and receive a high value pickup at the end.
  • Enter before the 50% mark and survival will be rewarded with a good value pickup at the end.
  • Enter before the 25% mark and survival will be rewarded with a low value pickup at the end.
  • Enter after the 25% mark and there won't be pickup at the end.
Now of course some enemies should only spawn when the player is running the Gauntlet - otherwise jumping in at the 25% mark might be suicidal due to enemy accumulation.
Stilghar wrote:Even novice players liked the feeling of warping whenever they wanted and something like this prevented it for them.
Novice players also like to shoot whenever they feel like it, yet you have made the deliberate design decision to limit ammo ...

In terms of encouraging the player to trade sides - the stage design should take care of that:
  • Novice players tend to choose survival - you get them to warp by putting something dangerous in front of them, while the other side looks a lot less threatening.
  • Advanced players will tend to chase the score - you get them to warp by putting a feast on the other side.
  • Intermediate players chase the score to the best of their ability but they get out of Dodge when it gets too hot.
Now for a novice it may be to onerous too manage both ammo and warp energy - but on "normal"? The point being is that a warp gauge can't be bolted on later for a harder difficulty, it needs to be an integral part of the (stage) design that can then be relaxed for novice difficulty. An advanced player is expected trade his (suitably constrained) resources for the maximum return and therefore must carefully plan out how available resources are spent. But in the end it is your game ...
Stilghar wrote:What we have seen is that advanced players already warp like crazy, simply because they don't want to allow enemies on any side go by.
Actually that could be a sign that the level of challenge is too low for that player. "Advanced players" need to be forced to prioritize, e.g. pouring all available damage into a mid-boss that is about to run away for a chance at a huge score payout while ignoring popcorn enemies even if it means having to dodge their annoying shots.
Stilghar wrote:It could work for hardcore players but it could spoil the game for many.
Ultimately you have to decide what kind of game you are making. Lots of people like a quick, disposable "blow stuff up" experience (though they are just as prone to label that experience as "too short"). But good shooting games tend to feed the "joy of a sense of improvement" coming from getting just that little bit further in the stage, getting a better score than last time, getting to the next stage, getting to the end with one credit, getting to the end with one life, etc. To generate that sense a graduated progression of difficulty and some depth in the game mechanics is necessary.
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Re: Do you like pickups (not powerups) in shmups?

Post by Ixmucane2 »

To encourage switching weapons the humble and sometimes annoying flood of homing coins can be put to good use: coins can be different according to the weapon you used to produce them (i.e. to kill the corresponding enemy) and all other weapons could collide with coins, repel them and increase their value.
Net effect: much greater score if weapons are used in waves, "cooking" old coins and killing new enemies simultaneously. The repulsion and homing coin behaviours could be balanced to allow indefinitely pushing to the upper part of the screen only less coins that can be normally produced, ensuring both eventual coin collection (without stressing the engine with too many objects...) and enemies passing behind coins.
The drama of breaking chains or missing valuable pickups would be avoided (the score loss for collecting a coin prematurely or failing to increase its value would be very gradual), but there would be significant skill demands (herding coins and predicting their movement) and tactical challenges (the risk of letting coins occlude firing paths vs. the reward of increasing their value).
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Doctor Butler
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Re: Do you like pickups (not powerups) in shmups?

Post by Doctor Butler »

Spoiler
Ixmucane2 wrote:To encourage switching weapons the humble and sometimes annoying flood of homing coins can be put to good use: coins can be different according to the weapon you used to produce them (i.e. to kill the corresponding enemy) and all other weapons could collide with coins, repel them and increase their value.
Net effect: much greater score if weapons are used in waves, "cooking" old coins and killing new enemies simultaneously. The repulsion and homing coin behaviours could be balanced to allow indefinitely pushing to the upper part of the screen only less coins that can be normally produced, ensuring both eventual coin collection (without stressing the engine with too many objects...) and enemies passing behind coins.
The drama of breaking chains or missing valuable pickups would be avoided (the score loss for collecting a coin prematurely or failing to increase its value would be very gradual), but there would be significant skill demands (herding coins and predicting their movement) and tactical challenges (the risk of letting coins occlude firing paths vs. the reward of increasing their value).
Sounds a lot like Infinite Burst.
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