Do you like pickups (not powerups) in shmups?

[Stilghar]

Just a question, I was wondering what is the general feeling of the community about pickups in shmups? Like coins, fruits, sweets... whatever that is not essential to the gameplay but gives you points just for picking them up.

Do you like them? Hate them? Don't care?

I should say that I'm asking all this because we are developing a shmup and this (energy/ammo) is already very much tied into the gameplay concept. It's a bit complex to explain but basically you have 2 shmups side by side and can switch from one to the other. Shooting depletes your energy/ammo, killing enemies on the other shmup side recharges energy for the side you are not currently on. In conclusion pressing you to switch back and forth and play both shmups to avoid running out of ammo. Better in explained in a video:

http://youtu.be/ZrFP9KkGJhw?t=24s

So, now we were thinking on adding pickups that would give you rewards to encourage the switching from side to side even more. One way is that they just grant you points/achievements/trophies another way is to tie them also in the energy concept.

Just trying to understand what fans like.

[Xyga]

I love it the Raizing-style (with hidden stuff, chaining and all).
But I don't like to have megatons of the same shit scattered all over the background that I need to collect without a rest for points.
Also no need to say stuff like the 'BONUS' voice in Blazing Star is annoying as hell, collecting must be fun.

[Stilghar]

What about awarding trophies/achievements based on the percentage of pickups collected?

25%= bronce
50%= silver
75%= gold
100%= platinum

Do you think this adds replayability?

[Jenseits]

See Xyga.
I love the Ibara items.
- Bomb fragments, full bombs, weapons, options, powerups, medals... They all add up to the games mechanic.

Items should add something to gameplay besides score.

Simple scoring/trophy award woudn't mean much too me and would better be replaced by more enemies which add up to the score directly in my book.

[Stilghar]

What about energy pickups (ammo) for your main weapon?

[Xyga]

trophies/achievements based on the percentage of pickups collected

I like rewards for stuff accomplished better (no miss, number of bombs in stock, boss parts destruction rate, found secrets, etc)

EDIT: forgot that one;

Do you think this adds replayability?

If I collect items and it grants me more points, well, it's fine, but if it gets me points anyway, what's the point of showing me the math at the end of the stage ?
I don't get turned on by the figures, but more by the fact that I've accomplished great things and played well.
Hard to explain, but I need an incentive to try again and again that's not just points, rather I get extra points for feats, not extra points for points.

What about energy pickups (ammo) for your main weapon?

Never - fucking never - ammo in a shmup. This is lame. Ammo needs to be unlimited.
I'm ok with weapon powerups though, but not if you need to catch 10 of the same item to get maximum weapon power.
4 or 5 steps to top in a game with long stages is already plenty enough.

[Stilghar]

What about energy pickups (ammo) for your main weapon?

Never - fucking never - ammo in a shmup. This is lame. Ammo needs to be unlimited.
I'm ok with weapon powerups though, but not if you need to catch 10 of the same item to get maximum weapon power.
4 or 5 steps to top in a game with long stages is already plenty enough.

I should say that I'm asking all this because we are developing a shmup and this (energy/ammo) is already very much tied into the gameplay concept. It's a bit complex to explain but basically you have 2 shmups side by side and can switch from one to the other. Shooting depletes your energy/ammo, killing enemies on the other shmup side recharges energy for the side you are not currently on. In conclusion pressing you to switch back and forth and play both shmups to avoid running out of ammo. Better in explained in a video:

http://youtu.be/ZrFP9KkGJhw?t=24s

So, now we were thinking on adding pickups that would give you rewards to encourage the switching from side to side even more. One way is that they just grant you points/achievements/trophies another way is to tie them also in the energy concept.

Just trying to understand what fans like.

[Xyga]

Oh I see it's an interesting idea, my point was limited ammo sucks in a traditional straight shmup, but this is indeed different.

Now it's hard to think about what actions may be rewarded... mmh... it's not like the few 'VS. shmups'.

[Jeneki]

Always like score related pickups. As long as they don't always vacuum in automatically, at which point they serve no purpose other than to clutter up the background. I like it when pickups add an element of risk if I have to brave some bullets to get to them.

For bombs or other limited powerful attacks, sure. As ammo for the main weapon, no way. That's almost as big a turnoff as control inertia (intentionally gimping the control reaponsiveness to make movement 'realistic').

See this topic: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=36231

A better idea than punishing a player for using one shot type too much, is to give a variety of situations that rewards swithing shot. The most common example: one shot that's a weaker powered spread or homing shot for dealing with small spaced out enemies, and a concentrated blast for tougher enemies. Thus players will switch on their own because one is more optimal for each situation. Another example of multiple shot types used in a clever was is Hellfire, where using each shot is needed to cover all the angles. Good level design to take advantage of each shot type is key here.

[Stilghar]

Always like score related pickups. As long as they don't always vacuum in automatically, at which point they serve no purpose other than to clutter up the background. I like it when pickups add an element of risk if I have to brave some bullets to get to them.

For bombs or other limited powerful attacks, sure. As ammo for the main weapon, no way. That's almost as big a turnoff as control inertia (intentionally gimping the control reaponsiveness to make movement 'realistic').

See this topic: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=36231

That was precisely our idea, place few of them in hard to pick (no vacuum in) spots so you have to "switch" side at the correct moment/place (high risk/high reward). See my reply above regarding ammo for the main weapon (I think this doesn't really apply in this case).

[Stilghar]

Oh I see it's an interesting idea, my point was limited ammo sucks in a traditional straight shmup, but this is indeed different.

Now it's hard to think about what actions may be rewarded... mmh... it's not like the few 'VS. shmups'.

Yes, it's not really a traditional shmup. That's why I think these pickups could help reinforce the idea of forcing the player to pay attention to both sides to avoid missing them.

[Strikers1945guy]

Don't mind pickups as long as they aren't super annoying.
I love medal chaining in Raizing games if that fits your description and collecting bomb fragments.
What i DO hate is how collectiong medals and stuff in Psikyo games when the medals spin you get way more points for collection it in that half a second window where its facing a certain direction :\ Lame.

[Captain]

Good - Items with secret or difficult requirements. Scoring items that don't spawn all over the screen and have unique mechanics which increase their value or spawn rate. Items that spawn at a time where it is a challenge to pick them up.

[Ed Oscuro]

'BONUS' voice in Blazing Star

Bone Ass

[Stilghar]

Don't mind pickups as long as they aren't super annoying.
I love medal chaining in Raizing games if that fits your description and collecting bomb fragments.
What i DO hate is how collectiong medals and stuff in Psikyo games when the medals spin you get way more points for collection it in that half a second window where its facing a certain direction :\ Lame.

Not familiar with the chaining in Raizing, I will look it up.

[Stilghar]

Good - Items with secret or difficult requirements. Scoring items that don't spawn all over the screen and have unique mechanics which increase their value or spawn rate. Items that spawn at a time where it is a challenge to pick them up.

THIS ^ is pure gold

Thanks!

[HydrogLox]

What about energy pickups (ammo) for your main weapon?

Given the game play design as it appears in your video I would be concerned that ammo pickups would undermine your game play as it defuses the need for ammo management. In the game it would make sense to stagger the high density enemy waves on either side so if you always flip to the high density side (to score well) you can afford to spray and pray because of the damage that you are causing, while always flipping to the low density side (for easier survival) you are going to suffer an ammo famine and have to make every shot count. In order to keep the challenge somewhat balanced on both sides low density enemies should use aimed shots while high density enemies use spam shots.

In order to entice the player to move from the low density side to the high density side you could occasionally generate (substantial) ammo recharge pickups on the high-density side after destroying N enemies (or some similar accomplishment) on the low-density side.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Triangle Service got medal chaining right, in my opinion. Raises and maxes out quickly, so a dropped medal isn't the end of the world. Keeps the whole thing fun.

Also, Toaplan-style pickups that total up at the end of a stage, essentially serving as a variable no miss no bomb bonus? Yes please.

[Strikers1945guy]

Triangle Service got medal chaining right, in my opinion. Raises and maxes out quickly, so a dropped medal isn't the end of the world. Keeps the whole thing fun.

I haven't played enough triangle service stuff to know, but it sounds to me like the opposite of fun. Simply because you aren't too concerned about dropping your medal chain if you can boost it back to max in 30 seconds. Half the fun of raizing games for me is desperately trying to continue that 10k medal chain as long as possible and often risking life for the reward.

[gameoverDude]

Depends. Psyvariar is one game that pickups would not be welcome in. The buzzing mechanic will keep you busy enough there. OTOH games like Ibara/Bakraid/Batrider/Garegga need them.

For Dimension Drive, I'd have some sort of subtle audio cue if a pick-up appears on the other side. After several kills on A, the item could spawn on B- requiring a side switch to go get it.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Triangle Service got medal chaining right, in my opinion. Raises and maxes out quickly, so a dropped medal isn't the end of the world. Keeps the whole thing fun.

I haven't played enough triangle service stuff to know, but it sounds to me like the opposite of fun. Simply because you aren't too concerned about dropping your medal chain if you can boost it back to max in 30 seconds. Half the fun of raizing games for me is desperately trying to continue that 10k medal chain as long as possible and often risking life for the reward.

Probably different tastes then, because if it takes too long to build the chain up then you lose it because a medal spawns where you can't get to it, your run is basically over. I much prefer having short bursts of scoring bonus to one long, drawn out affair because the former can still be fun after making a small mistake. In fact they tend to be balanced so you can either try to keep your max chain or destroy everything in sight and pickup medals when you can. Having more than one way to a high score is a very good thing in my book.

[Strikers1945guy]

Triangle Service got medal chaining right, in my opinion. Raises and maxes out quickly, so a dropped medal isn't the end of the world. Keeps the whole thing fun.

I haven't played enough triangle service stuff to know, but it sounds to me like the opposite of fun. Simply because you aren't too concerned about dropping your medal chain if you can boost it back to max in 30 seconds. Half the fun of raizing games for me is desperately trying to continue that 10k medal chain as long as possible and often risking life for the reward.

Probably different tastes then, because if it takes too long to build the chain up then you lose it because a medal spawns where you can't get to it, your run is basically over. I much prefer having short bursts of scoring bonus to one long, drawn out affair because the former can still be fun after making a small mistake. In fact they tend to be balanced so you can either try to keep your max chain or destroy everything in sight and pickup medals when you can. Having more than one way to a high score is a very good thing in my book.

Ahh true enough, different strokes I guess haha.

[ciox]

That's an interesting thing to think about, on one hand if it takes a long time to max out medals then you have a lot to lose when dropping one, but then if your medals max out very early then so does your benefit from picking up medals and there's not much variation in what you get out of medals.
Probably the most fair and "nice" system would be a high starting medal value and then very small increments that go on for a very long time or even forever, if you drop a medal it's not the end of the world, but if you're a good player that never drops medals your feat is still noticeable.

[Stilghar]

For Dimension Drive, I'd have some sort of subtle audio cue if a pick-up appears on the other side. After several kills on A, the item could spawn on B- requiring a side switch to go get it.

This could be a good idea. A visual cue could go unnoticed as it's on the other side, but an audio cue works regardless of where you are looking at. Thanks for all the feedback guys! We're probably going to use few pickups specially for the levels where the environment plays a big role (think R-Type style levels) and place them in hard to pick locations.

[DanMagoo]

Just wanted to say that the game looks good and I really like the concept. It is a clever evolution of the polarity concept from Ikaruga.

Is there an option of playing it 'dot eater' style where you can clear stages purely by switching regularly?

Re. Pickups, might be interesting to make it so that once they appear, they increase in value the longer you stay on the same side?

[Stilghar]

Just wanted to say that the game looks good and I really like the concept. It is a clever evolution of the polarity concept from Ikaruga.

Is there an option of playing it 'dot eater' style where you can clear stages purely by switching regularly?

Re. Pickups, might be interesting to make it so that once they appear, they increase in value the longer you stay on the same side?

Thanks. Being compared to Ikaruga always gives us a smile

We have not created a special "dot eater" game mode, but I don't see anything preventing somebody playing in that style. Consider that this is not like in Ikaruga where you can absorb bullets of the other side. So you could try to finish a stage without firing (just switching) but not really "eating dots" Of course, bosses need to be killed, so that's something you wouldn't be able to cross without firing.

Re. Our idea of pickups is to use them try to encourage switching. I think your proposal will actually do the opposite unless I'm understanding you incorrectly.

[DanMagoo]

Of course, bosses need to be killed, so that's something you wouldn't be able to cross without firing.

Re. Our idea of pickups is to use them try to encourage switching. I think your proposal will actually do the opposite unless I'm understanding you incorrectly.

Ok I get it about the bosses.

My idea on pickups is to encourage risk taking in order to increase their value. I'm guessing you would normally switch to avoid heavy enemy fire, but what if there was an incentive to stick around and take the risk of being hit before you switch?

[Jeneki]

I watched the video and I like this concept. Reminds me of Chaos Field (in a good way). Looks fun to swap back and forth aggressively, to tackle both sides.

[Stilghar]

I watched the video and I like this concept. Reminds me of Chaos Field (in a good way). Looks fun to swap back and forth aggressively, to tackle both sides.

Thanks. Just checked Chaos Field. Was it possible to see the bullet patterns of the 2 fields in that game? The info I can find says that there were 2 fields (order and chaos) and enemies and bullets were more aggressive in one than the other. But I'm not sure if it was possible to "see" both fields at once (like in Ikaruga for example or in Dimension Drive side by side).

[Jeneki]

Chaos Field in a nutshell: The Order field has easy bullet patterns, and builds your special attacks faster. The Chaos field has harder bullet patterns, but is more lucrative for points using the special attacks. So the general strategy is to use the Order field to build up a bunch of special attacks, then hop over to the Chaos field and unleash them and rack up huge combos (and try not to die hehe). Both fields are not visible at the same time though, when you switch it alters the bullet patterns and color schemes.