The future of SHMUPs.

[ciox]

Don't get me wrong, I hope Raiden V is awesome and sells 10 million copies, but I just don't see how that is possible considering how historically the xbox flopped in Japan. I mean it sold less than 40K consoles so far, that is unheard of.

Number of Japanese console shmup fans confirmed.

[evil_ash_xero]

!. Are SHMUPs dead?

Well, people will keep playing them (such as ourselves), but it seems like barely any come out anymore.
No big companies make them, and the small companies are either dead, or just put out one every year or two.

2. What are your predictions for the future of the SHMUP scene?

We'll keep playing old ones. Who knows if younger people will keep it going.

3. Should we be preparing to catalog information in memorial before we lose it to history?

I think we kind of do that a bit already. It needs updating though.

4. Is there someone or some organization already compiling all available information on the history of SHMUPs?

Here and there. More needs to be done.

5. What, if anything new and exciting is happening within the SHMUP sphere?

Nothing. People get excited about Doujin games, but most aren't impressive in the slightest. Or are just takes on older/better games. Why play them, when you could play the
better ones? That's my opinion on retro Indi/Doujin games in general.

6. What are your general thoughts on the industry as a whole past, present, and/or, future?

It was great. It's time is pretty much gone. But it will live on in our hearts. And hopefully, someone will make one worthy of excitement, sometime in the next few years.

[Squire Grooktook]

Nothing. People get excited about Doujin games, but most aren't impressive in the slightest. Or are just takes on older/better games. Why play them, when you could play the
better ones? That's my opinion on retro Indi/Doujin games in general.

Honestly, many of the doujin games I played are better designed, more interesting, and more unique then most of the commercial games I've played, and are more aligned to my design preferences. Saying they're all derivative is nonsense too. You're not going to find anything like Akashicverse or Astebreed (imperfect as it may be) in Cave or Toaplan's library.

I don't see how anyone could say Doujin's are worse unless aesthetics are just so much more important to you then gameplay. Because really, that's exactly the perspective most older, supposedly "better" games came from. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of classics in this genre and and in others, but if you really look at the old commercial gems under a microscope, the gameplay is not all that fine tuned:

-Castlevania 1 has no challenge for the first 3 stages except for one shot kills that you easily memorize, until the stage 4 boss in which it unexpectedly spikes like a motherfucker. And even then, stage 5 is vastly easier then the preceding and following bosses.

-Every Gradius game except for Gaiden and maybe Gradius I is either too easy, or too full of bullshit recoveries.

-Contra Hardcorps has a fucking atrocious number of safe spots and bosses that are completely and utterly braindead and pointless once you memorize them.

-Darius Gaiden has milking as a huge part of scoring, autofire that breaks the game in multiple ways, and luck based scoring items.

-Contra 1 has masterful level design but the base stages can be beaten simply by crouching through all of them, the final stage has no zakos at all and is therefore easier then the previous two stages, and overall the game is way too easy even when you're on loop 5.

-R-Type 3 has one of the most lengthy and boring stage 1 ever put into a shmup, and stage 4 is one of the worst examples of trial and error design ever conceived in a video game.

-Ghouls and Ghosts/Daimakaimura is probably one of the most intense run and gun shooters there is, but it relies on the second loop way too hard to disguise the ultra short (even by arcade game standards) length, which makes it a bit more repetitive then a true full length game could have been, not to mention half the weapons are useless death traps and the other half all do the same thing (with varying effectiveness).

-With the exception of Super Aleste on Lunatic/hardest and Hyper Duel, every Compile and Technosoft game is way too easy to have true staying power.

-Castlevania Bloodlines recycles a ton of art assets in the final stage and ends on a boss rush featuring rehashes of 3 previous bosses, and a tedious and overly long puzzle fight against Bartley that basically consists of walking left and right on the same timing for 2 whole minutes.

-CAVE games have extreme scoring optimization depth, but they have basically no rng dodging ever (which is the most awful thing I can say about any game), and stage design from game to game is pretty damn formulaic (herd bullets and blow up big guys on stage 3 to cancel shit).

-And let's not even get started on stuff like Metal Black...

These games are great, and deserving of being classics. But from a design perspective, most of them are no better then what you could find from some of the best small time developers in the doujin field. They have no other advantage besides aesthetics and presentation. The idea that commercial developers breed superior quality game design, at least in the arcade style genre, is a myth. They are just as flawed as anything else.

[Pretas]

I don't see how anyone could say Doujin's are worse unless aesthetics are just so much more important to you then gameplay.

It's reductive to claim that surface aesthetics are the lone category in which doujin games fail to live up to their commercial counterparts, or that they only have a miniscule role in creating something that's enjoyable to play. There are many other aspects like pacing, world-building (i.e. the lauded "landscape narratives" of Cave games), music/voice/SFX, character/mechanical design, and polish on controls/animations that contribute to the quality of an STG experience.

The only doujin STGs that come close to replicating the pacing, music composition and visual narrative of a good commercial game are those by Siter Skain, though they fall short in other areas. And in terms of raw game design, Crimzon Clover does a good job of aping a professional Ikeda-style Cave STG, but the complete product will never be mistaken for one. It lacks a solid hook to draw you into its world, unless you are an aspie who only cares about scoring. Despite their pronounced technical limitations, even many commercial 8-bit STGs were successful at crafting engaging and mysterious settings populated with memorable enemies, which CC and the vast majority of doujin STGs largely fail to live up to.

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't see how anyone could say Doujin's are worse unless aesthetics are just so much more important to you then gameplay.

It's reductive to claim that surface aesthetics are the lone category in which doujin games fail to live up to their commercial counterparts, or that they only have a miniscule role in creating something that's enjoyable to play. There are many other aspects like pacing, world-building (i.e. the lauded "landscape narratives" of Cave games), music/voice/SFX, character/mechanical design, and polish on controls/animations that contribute to the quality of an STG experience.

The only doujin STGs that come close to replicating the pacing, music composition and visual narrative of a good commercial game are those by Siter Skain, though they fall short in other areas. And in terms of raw game design, Crimzon Clover does a good job of aping a professional Ikeda-style Cave STG, but the complete product will never be mistaken for one. It lacks a solid hook to draw you into its world, unless you are an aspie who only cares about scoring. Despite their pronounced technical limitations, even many commercial 8-bit STGs were successful at crafting engaging and mysterious settings populated with memorable enemies, which CC and the vast majority of doujin STGs largely fail to live up to.

I have enough imagination that I can imagine all the world building and aesthetic parts myself, even if they are competely absent. If I need better music, I'll listen to Ketsui's ost while I play. To be sure, an interesting aesthetic or story vision is nice to have, but at the end of the day the game that I choose to replay again and again and again is the game that has the design elements that I find produces the most enjoyable play experience. Everything else is just a bonus.

And I have found many doujin games that sync nearly perfectly to my preference in design elements. Often moreso then their closest commercial counterparts (if a comparable counterpart even exists).

Also "pacing" is purely a game design issue with no relation to aesthetics, and is generally equal on the sides of the best commercial releases and the best doujin releases. Same for the mention of controls.

Crimzon Clover does a good job of aping a professional Ikeda-style Cave STG, but the complete product will never be mistaken for one.

It already has.

[Blackbird]

I think that Crimzon Clover has very memorable enemies (the bosses at least). But that's just my opinion. I don't think world building is necessarily an indie vs. pro kind of thing; Astebreed is an indie game and has much more world building than your usual shmup. It's really more up to the developer's discretion. Some devs just find that aspect of shmups more compelling than others.

[Squire Grooktook]

Despite the lack of explicit story, I find the locales in CC to be very diverse and memorable. The oceanic castle like first stage base is a much more interesting locale then typical mechanical bases, and from stage 3 onward the progression of Monster filled Cave > cloudscape over cyberpunk city > to finally a melancholy dystopian smog city, are all pretty memorable.

Setpieces are also pretty cool too methinks, such as the stage 2's cavern descending fight, or the half rebuilt refights against bosses near the end of the final stage. The only thing that could be held against the game's visual style/story is that it adheres strictly to the tried and true space ships and robots formula, but I dare say its one of the best execution's of the style there is.

The lack of story I think does create a particular kind of lonely "you vs the world" atmosphere too, compounded by game's engrossing length and the disconnected engrishy lines hinting that there's some kind of meaning to things.

Not to mention the engrishy question/statement on entering the final stage's gate is probably one of the most memorable, hype, and endearing little touches I've seen in any game for a long time.

[MathU]

Hellsinker is still a more innovative game than nearly any other shooter released in the last ten years. What the doujin scene excels at is its ability to think outside of the box of typical arcade player expectations. Doujin developers are not in a make-or-break situation like arcade or even console developers where they need to pander at some level to ensure their game sells. They can take the risks that bigger developers cannot and this is their greatest strength.

[Oniros]

Hellsinker is still a more innovative game than nearly any other shooter released in the last ten years. What the doujin scene excels at is its ability to think outside of the box of typical arcade player expectations. Doujin developers are not in a make-or-break situation like arcade or even console developers where they need to pander at some level to ensure their game sells. They can take the risks that bigger developers cannot and this is their greatest strength.

Wish the english release had been, you know, actually available for purchase. Instead of being part of some obscure as shit indie bundle. I really wanted to try that one.

[Smartbomb]

I think that the future of Schmups lies in the hands of indie devs as it requires pure passion to get them made. Not financial decisions. I just found this list and while it's a bit old it still holds some interesting titles.
http://indiegames.com/2013/01/top_10_i ... _of_2.html

[Lord Satori]

There's a fuckin patch. It's not an obscure unavailable bundle. That was just a slightly updated version of the patch that was there.

[Squire Grooktook]

There's a fuckin patch. It's not an obscure unavailable bundle. That was just a slightly updated version of the patch that was there.

He means for purchasing it without jumping through the hoops of importing. Theirs Rancor's sight, yeah, but that's still importing.

[HydrogLox]

I really wanted to try that one.

Buy this
Apply hs_C72_patch_1009.exe
Find HellsinkerEnglishTranslation-v1_1.rar, extract and apply. (Norton had fits when I tried to use "www.gensokyo.org/HellsinkerEnglishTranslation-v1_1.exe").

The only thing that you are then missing is 1009b which is Japanese only.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p806799

So. 1.0.0.9b released.
Changes are very minor and involve fixing the novel bug for jp text, and adding keyboard buttons (Button 7 = Left Shift, Button 8 =Enter).
English translation probably will not be updated. Can't justify spending the 20-30 hours it would take to update everything for that...

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 66#p803966
http://mauve.mizuumi.net/2012/06/01/ret ... velopment/

He means for purchasing it without jumping through the hoops of importing.

He's gone through the motions of acquiring a J360 and then exchanging it due to defects - he'll be alright.

[MathU]

Wish the english release had been, you know, actually available for purchase. Instead of being part of some obscure as shit indie bundle. I really wanted to try that one.

Not gonna lie, I pirated it before finally importing it. The demo doesn't quite give a good impression of what to expect for the rest of game, and it doesn't help that it's a tough game to get into at first in general (or was much more so at least back before the instruction manual got translated). But once it clicked with me I had to own it. Got it off Nanapo Store selling over amazon.co.jp. Amazon.co.jp is pretty import-friendly; it's probably much easier than you might think it is to import. As a matter of fact the version of the game I have installed is still that old pirated copy. I got my CD but I've never even ran the installer!

I've heard Tonnor has filed takedown requests for upload sites over the game before, but here's at least one example of a sale that only happened because of them.

The only thing that you are then missing is 1009b which is Japanese only.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p806799

So. 1.0.0.9b released.
Changes are very minor and involve fixing the novel bug for jp text, and adding keyboard buttons (Button 7 = Left Shift, Button 8 =Enter).
English translation probably will not be updated. Can't justify spending the 20-30 hours it would take to update everything for that...

Version 1.1 of the patch does resolve the extra button addition actually.

There was another updated version of the patch used for the bundle sale as well, but for some reason Mauve still hasn't uploaded it anywhere.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

Thanks for the tip with the Nanapo Store, MathU.