The future of SHMUPs.

[Pwnix]

Now let me start this off by saying that I don't know if this is something that's been addressed recently and if it is, I apologize, but I think this is interesting and I'd like to discuss it. It's been ages since Konami started making phone games and assorted gambling boxes instead of SHMUPs and proper games in general. CAVE has also gone down that road. Toaplan is long dead. Success, I think is still around? Not really doing much it would seem though. Squenix absorbed Taito. Sega is still doing stuff under Nintendo's banner. I don't know if anything Sega has done recently has been a shmup though. Victor Interactive became a part of Marvelous. Red is dead (more or less). Hudson was eaten by the new "Konami". Irem also is making Pachinko machines. Although out of that came Granzella (though it doesn't seem they've done anything yet). Technosoft also long dead. Compile also sadly long gone. 8ing hasn't been up to much.

So I have a few questions.

!. Are SHMUPs dead?

2. What are your predictions for the future of the SHMUP scene?

3. Should we be preparing to catalog information in memorial before we lose it to history?

4. Is there someone or some organization already compiling all available information on the history of SHMUPs?

5. What, if anything new and exciting is happening within the SHMUP sphere?

6. What are your general thoughts on the industry as a whole past, present, and/or, future?

[CIT]

1. Are SHMUPs dead?

Arcade shooters are pretty much dead, yes.

2. What are your predictions for the future of the SHMUP scene?

There will still be shooters released intermittently for console, PC, mobile devices, as well as fan-made games.

3. Should we be preparing to catalog information in memorial before we lose it to history?

Well, it's already been happening for quite some years.

4. Is there someone or some organization already compiling all available information on the history of SHMUPs?

Mamedev, various conservation societies in Japan, a number of videogame collections/museums worldwide.

5. What, if anything new and exciting is happening within the SHMUP sphere?

At the moment some "lost" old games have been dug up and are in the process of being dumped/emulated.

6. What are your general thoughts on the industry as a whole past, present, and/or, future?

Games are less and less actually games but some kind of "immersive experience" bullshit.

[Pwnix]

Thanks for the input! So your prediction is that things will more or less remain as they are for the foreseeable future in regards to SHMUPs. That is an unfortunately likely scenario; Though I suppose it's better than a complete cessation of development. Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the people who are conserving the games and information. On a side note I just want to take the chance to apologize if my questions are shallow or old hat so to speak. I know a decent amount about SHMUPs but I'm still a relative novice compared to most members of this board I'm sure. Also if you are willing or have the time to link to the info on those "lost" games I would very much appreciate it. That sounds fascinating.
As far as the "immersive experience" thing. I actually tend to like games that focus more on an "experience" rather than a "game". It's definitely a time and place thing though. I want my gamey games too.
Regardless, in the back of my mind there is some dusty corner that still hopes for a new SHMUP Renaissance. That's yotta unlikely, so instead I might as well comb through as much of the history and back catalog of games that I can. I suppose that's really the main purpose of this thread. Gathering resources that would allow me to do that to the best of my ability. With the help from you fine Gentlemen and Ladies.

[supergrafx77]

Your post strikes a chord with my soul.
Today at work, I was staring into the void of the CAVE website for about 5 minutes or so and Hello Kitty was seemingly staring back at me. WTF

Why can't Cave print more SH3 boards for prices like $500 a pop; there is def a market here....? SDOJ pcb(s) for everyone.... Hell, I'd get em' all at these prices as would many on this forum and around the world! There's def a market and why not at least have them available "on-the-side," even if they are not the main emphasis concerning one's business model.
If they can not produce what people love................................... of course they will follow suit like Hudson, Konami, Capcom and the rest....
These companies suck.... They think they are doing what they must and then, die. Everything is getting worse...
It all started with the flat-screens and the end of lower res square pixels and scanlines...
People wonder why Minecraft is so popular.
My 12 yr. old son knows the answer to the riddle however=block like pix-elation of the Minecraft characters/old school implementations and a solid grass root community. This is also why lego is popular.

My main point is when these companies try to evolve and become something they are not, they crumble, as a matter of course.

The future does not look good at all for QUALITY shmups IMO. CAVE was my only hope and now they are Hello Kitty. Now all I can envision is Indy stuff and sub par titles from the likes of Moss or 5pb, etc... on a console near you.

[ACSeraph]

sub par titles from the likes of Moss or 5pb

Raiden, Caladrius, and Infinite Burst disagree with you. People don't even give shit a chance if it's not from Cave these days. I wonder how many people even gave Eschatos a try within this very community? I'd bet it's a small fraction compared to even Cave's shittiest output despite being one of the best shmups on 360. This weird inability to pay attention to anything not coming from the very biggest names in the genre is one of the biggest reasons behind its death (severe decline really, I doubt it will ever totally die) if you ask me.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think shmups have a potential for a slight resurgence in the indie digital distribution scene. They'll still be niche, but I think they have more then enough mass appeal to become at least as niche as your average retro indie platformer, which actually make a fair amount of money these days (at least enough to keep their developers making new games).

I think there's a few things they need to embrace though to widen appeal without diluting the arcade style format which defines the genre. IMO:

-First off, online co op is a must. You have no idea how much casuals love that shit or how strong a factor it can be in luring new people into the game. Every single time I try to pitch a shmup to some reasonably hardcore non shmup player, the first question I always get is "does it have online co op? I like online co op." And I have to hang my head and utter a melancholy "no." I've also personally had a blast playing Metal Slugs with casual friends, and I've seen that it can lure even the most casual players into discussing strategy and getting involved with the game on a deeper level.

-Besides that, the genre needs to diversify a bit. Needs more experimentation like Qute is doing and less strict adherence to the Ikeda/Cave style danmaku design. I think this goes for aesthetics too: everything being loli shooters or faceless space ship games is quite bland. Cave definitely had the right idea in constantly switching things up between disco sci-fi, on foot feudal japan questing, dragon riding bug world adventures, steampunk child soldiers, psychic gender bender escapades, etc. etc.

-Some people may hate me for this, but on the above note, some devs need to focus a bit less on scoring and more on nailing the adventure feel. Darius is awesome, but no developer taking inspiration from Cave or whatever is ever going to embrace the multiple path format because "one path will have more score potential then the others so everyone will have to always take that path!". Who cares, it's fun. Not saying every developer should do this, but again: diversity.

-They also need to find a balance between graphics and cost efficiency. Top notch PRETTY 3D SPARKLY GRAHPICS will not sell a game IMO and will just waste money and kill the dev who tries it (unless their Treasure or something), but 8-bit beep boop won't have a ton of appeal either (though they are less likely to kill the dev). Just the right balance of high quality super nes or mega drive style pixel art combined with a creative setting and aesthetic at a reasonable price could have great appeal for many hardcore-but-not-too-hardcore players.

-Need to balance their games partially with casuals in mind. 1cc should still be arcade difficulty, but instead of giving unlimited credits or no continues at all, I think developers should work hard to actually balance the number of continues so that it can function as a good beginner difficulty setting for non-arcade goers, while simultaneously providing incentives to learn to 1cc the game (secret stages, true ending, etc). I think Alien Soldier is a pretty solid example of a game with several extra credits that are well balanced around the difficulty.

Probably other stuff too.

[DJ Incompetent]

sub par titles from the likes of Moss or 5pb

Raiden, Caladrius, and Infinite Burst disagree with you. People don't even give shit a chance if it's not from Cave these days. I wonder how many people even gave Eschatos a try within this very community? I'd bet it's a small fraction compared to even Cave's shittiest output despite being one of the best shmups on 360. This weird inability to pay attention to anything not coming from the very biggest names in the genre is one of the biggest reasons behind its death (severe decline really, I doubt it will ever totally die) if you ask me.

Completely agree.
The community hyperfocuses on releases coming from a single country, that must be directed by one of five people, and must originate as a PCB. G.Rev, Qute, Moss, Yotsubane, Mages, Triangle Service, NG.DevTeam, Doragon, Astro Port, Cross Eaglet, Edelweiss, N0rty, Wide Pixel, Fruitbat Factory, and Xona are doing neat things. But we'd rather be excited about a recovered half-baked prototype deemed unfit for release than rally, promote, or encourage most companies out on the scene today.

[DestroyTheCore]

The future of shmups is all about QTEs, weak female characters, and checkpoints.

[Strikers1945guy]

Ya... Cave is dead, but the STG community sure isn't. Many other companies in areas other than japan are making awesome shmups, but the whole PCB scene for new games is obviously on the rapid decline/dead, at least for shmups.

[Hagane]

Re: The future of SHMUPs.

Doujins.

[Squire Grooktook]

Re: The future of all 2d games.

Doujins/indie.

[Pretas]

This thread should have waited until Raiden V, Natsuki Chronicle, and Ubusana are released.

[CIT]

I think shmups have a potential for a slight resurgence in the indie digital distribution scene.

Oh yeah, I can't wait to play more multidirectional shooters with floaty controls, abstract/cookie cutter 8-bit graphics, and saved game progress.

Unfortunately most indie-devs don't understand how arcade gameplay works.

[Squire Grooktook]

Unfortunately most indie-devs don't understand how arcade gameplay works.

Bleed (arcade mode), Noitu Love 2, Super Cyborg, Freedom Planet, Jamestown, Volgarr The Viking, Oniken, Odallus, and Aces Wild all would like to offer arguments to the contrary.

Jamestown is the only shmup I just listed along with the run and gun shooters because that genre is totally shmup but all of the above are top notch arcade games that have solid followings and publicity.

Also be aware that I generally include "doujin" in any mention of indie. Moreso now that more and more doujin titles are ending up on Steam and other western digital distribution services.

[trap15]

Why can't Cave print more SH3 boards for prices like $500 a pop; there is def a market here....?

There is not a market, that's the problem. That's why they closed their arcade division. It's not profitable.

The future of shmups is playing old ones.

[Squire Grooktook]

The future of shmups is playing old ones.

This is probably the least likely outcome speculated here. No matter how unprofitable they are, people will at least keep on making indie/doujin titles, even if they have to go freeware and have shit graphics. Doesn't really matter though, they'll keep on delivering where it counts.

[Pretas]

For as long as systems capable of playing video games are supported, there will never be a conclusive end to the STG genre. They have always been one of the easiest game types to create for budding, solitary and cash-strapped developers, which has proven especially true on mobile platforms. The first proper video game ever was a versus STG.

[Pwnix]

Holy crap all of a sudden I can't keep up! So many good points and references to companies I've never heard of. And without the usual internet devolution into contention. It certainly seems the general feeling is one of resilience. At least hanging in there. I agree with a lot of the points being made. Certainly for any sort of scene rejuvenation to take place there must be transformation, experimentation, innovation. I'm sure that's taking place. Is there a good source of information somewhere that has relatively accessible information on doujin/indie developers that make SHMUPs? Or really more generally, where should I go if anywhere to really bone up on whatever scene there might be today and bonus if I can bone up on games of the past too. Just chill around the forum maybe? Any other sites?

[trap15]

Shmup is not an acronym, stop capitalizing it. Thanks.

[Nwodatek]

Need to balance their games partially with casuals in mind. 1cc should still be arcade difficulty, but instead of giving unlimited credits or no continues at all, I think developers should work hard to actually balance the number of continues so that it can function as a good beginner difficulty setting for non-arcade goers, while simultaneously providing incentives to learn to 1cc the game (secret stages, true ending, etc). I think Alien Soldier is a pretty solid example of a game with several extra credits that are well balanced around the difficulty.

Wouldn't progressive difficulty levels be better for this? I think the Touhou method is quite alright for this: Give the player four difficulties level starting from Easy for people who never played a challenging game before, to Normal for people new to the genre that appreciates a challenge, to Hard for people who played shmups before and last there's Lunatic. All of this while putting limited continues (except MoF, SA and UFO, those have unlimited continues but they throw you at the beginning of the stage) and a Bad ending for those who continue and a Good one for those who 1cc. Also there's an incentive to go up to Normal for those who started on Easy as well, since you only unlock Extra after 1cc'ing Normal.

Still, bear in mind that I never played Alien Soldier before so I don't know how it's handled there! So there's a chance that it does the same thing, in that case ignore my post.

[Squire Grooktook]

Need to balance their games partially with casuals in mind. 1cc should still be arcade difficulty, but instead of giving unlimited credits or no continues at all, I think developers should work hard to actually balance the number of continues so that it can function as a good beginner difficulty setting for non-arcade goers, while simultaneously providing incentives to learn to 1cc the game (secret stages, true ending, etc). I think Alien Soldier is a pretty solid example of a game with several extra credits that are well balanced around the difficulty.

Wouldn't progressive difficulty levels be better for this? I think the Touhou method is quite alright for this: Give the player four difficulties level starting from Easy for people who never played a challenging game before, to Normal for people new to the genre that appreciates a challenge, to Hard for people who played shmups before and last there's Lunatic. All of this while putting limited continues (except MoF, SA and UFO, those have unlimited continues but they throw you at the beginning of the stage) and a Bad ending for those who continue and a Good one for those who 1cc. Also there's an incentive to go up to Normal for those who started on Easy as well, since you only unlock Extra after 1cc'ing Normal.

Still, bear in mind that I never played Alien Soldier before so I don't know how it's handled there! So there's a chance that it does the same thing, in that case ignore my post.

Progressive difficulty levels are always better, but the problem there is that even people who are bad and who should be playing on easy still probably won't "get it" and are often just going to credit feed to the end, even on easy.

The later Touhou games booting you back to the beginning of the stage on game over is a step in the right direction, but I feel that still encourages the credit feed mentality of grinding away at one particular section, trying to clear it through luck rather then actually mastering it and being able to pull it off in a run. That kind of repetition has more in common with consolized challenges then the exciting gauntlet style format of arcade games, and most likely players who win that way won't "get" the idea of a real "run". And therefore, won't return to it.

Likewise, a 1cc of normal to unlock extra is a good incentive, but normal is too far from arcade difficulty and extra too divorced from the main game to properly telegraph the concept on their own. Most players are more likely to just mash bomb through it once and then not return IMO. I think a bit more drastic main game measures like stages/cut scenes/tlbs getting locked out if you continue would further and better telegraph the idea.

Personally I think booting you back to the beginning of the stage and giving you a small number of extra continues and shutting off secrets/cut scenes/tlb's when continuing (which is also what Alien Soldier does) is best. Unlimited continues should never exist outside of practice or training mode, imo.

[1up]

Where did Ikeda and Asada go?

I have no hope for the future of shmups. Like trap15, I fear what will come out of the indie scene. Only "big" game on the horizon is Raiden V. But haven't arcade shooters been on a decline since the 2d fighting game took over the arcades and been on life support for the past decade? Arcade shooters is niche and have been for a long time. Will it die? No, I don't think so and this forum is proof of that.

I hope CAVE wakes up and follows other japanese companies and starts releasing their stuff on Steam. I'm no marketing/strategy person but in my simple mind it would be easy money...


... if it's easy to port

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

They weren't messing around with the tagline for Raiden back in 1990:

The future was indeed decided back on Raiden's first flight, with Raiden V on the way, I don't see any sign of them stopping anytime soon!

[trap15]

I hope CAVE wakes up and follows other japanese companies and starts releasing their stuff on Steam. I'm no marketing/strategy person but in my simple mind it would be easy money...
... if it's easy to port

It's not easy money. Porting to PC is not easy, and Steam has near-zero market in Japan. It's not worth it. Even past that, their only gamedev branch still open is their mobage one, and that's probably not going to change positively.

[Squire Grooktook]

I fear what will come out of the indie scene.

A lot of fantastic things have come out of the indie/doujin scene.

[Lord Satori]

and Steam has near-zero market in Japan.

There's this magical place called "outside Japan" that holds this vastly untapped market. Don't ask me where it is, though. I only pay attention to Cave. And 2hu.

[trap15]

A "vastly untapped market" that doesn't care one bit about these games or even games of skill in general.

[ciox]

I have no hope for the future of shmups. Like trap15, I fear what will come out of the indie scene. Only "big" game on the horizon is Raiden V.

I don't fear it. Also there is Ubusuna which has some chance of being "big"

[Captain]

The future of shmups is the past.

[Squire Grooktook]

The future of shmups is the past.

*Yagawa smiles with the teeth of a shark*

*cue Heavy Day*

A "vastly untapped market" that doesn't care one bit about these games or even games of skill in general.

Given the money it might take to make ports, it might be too late for Cave. However, for smaller and more modest doujin/indie productions, I do believe there are no shortage of ways they could make enough of a buck to fund development if they played their cards right.