XRGB-mini Framemeister

[braiboo]

thanks for all your help.
ditched the composite cable and ordered a d-sub to component
i think the cables for megadrive are ok as both are new from retrocables uk.
gamecube works ok through the same euroscart cable adapter
will try the sync settings next

cheers
ok changed sync level on megadrive,got it almost playable on 15 ,flickers slightly every 4 or 5 seconds and only loses signal while playing now
i believe the euro scart with sync stripper is needed?
can get nice scanlines by pressing a button and setting -visual set>scan-a- to 25
just need to learn how to remove the coloured border now,its usually blue or purple im iright in thinking its ts a setting in visual?
there are a lot of settings like h-pos h-height and stuff like that,im not sure which ones effect picture size or scanline settings etc
i think if i could better understand these terms and how they effect the picture i could do a lot more through trial and error.
cheers

[Dobiqwolf]

Because you said you were not technical I will try to explain in simple terms what you can use (if I make a mistake more experienced users are welcome to correct me).
First for PS1 and PS2 you need to use a RGB scart cable EU(pal)

Indeed I think you've missed something vital. The pinout matters: Using Euro SCART pinout for RGB on the Framemeister is bad! Do not do this! Instead buy a cable wired for the JP-21 pinout, or buy a "SCART to mini adapter" for use with the Euro SCART pinout cable. This info comes from here.

Note that the RGB-21 and SCART cables look identical; they just are wired differently.

Thank you for the clarification, because he tried the megadrive on the mini I understood he already had the SCART to mini adapter, could have been a jp megadrive.

[Dobiqwolf]

thanks for all your help.
ditched the composite cable and ordered a d-sub to component
i think the cables for megadrive are ok as both are new from retrocables uk.
gamecube works ok through the same euroscart cable adapter
will try the sync settings next

cheers
ok changed sync level on megadrive,got it almost playable on 15 ,flickers slightly every 4 or 5 seconds and only loses signal while playing now
i believe the euro scart with sync stripper is needed?
can get nice scanlines by pressing a button and setting -visual set>scan-a- to 25
just need to learn how to remove the coloured border now,its usually blue or purple im iright in thinking its ts a setting in visual?
there are a lot of settings like h-pos h-height and stuff like that,im not sure which ones effect picture size or scanline settings etc
i think if i could better understand these terms and how they effect the picture i could do a lot more through trial and error.
cheers

the Dsub is ok but you will get a much better picture with the RGB, I understand the Dsub quality is low on the mini or/and PS2, also do you plan toplay PS1 game using the PS2 or the PS1 because you would need the RGB cable for the PS1 (it doesn't do composite aka Dsub).

[Fudoh]

he meant D-Terminal. D-Terminal is component and the quality is extremely close to RGB.
Also PS1 games run just fine using component output from a PS2. He'll be fine.

[zakruowrath]

thanks for all your help.
ditched the composite cable and ordered a d-sub to component
i think the cables for megadrive are ok as both are new from retrocables uk.
gamecube works ok through the same euroscart cable adapter
will try the sync settings next

cheers
ok changed sync level on megadrive,got it almost playable on 15 ,flickers slightly every 4 or 5 seconds and only loses signal while playing now
i believe the euro scart with sync stripper is needed?
can get nice scanlines by pressing a button and setting -visual set>scan-a- to 25
just need to learn how to remove the coloured border now,its usually blue or purple im iright in thinking its ts a setting in visual?
there are a lot of settings like h-pos h-height and stuff like that,im not sure which ones effect picture size or scanline settings etc
i think if i could better understand these terms and how they effect the picture i could do a lot more through trial and error.
cheers

For your MegaDrive problem, yes the Euro SCART with the Sync Stripper boosts the sync signal and results in less flicker and losing sync level. Just make sure that you have a Euro SCART to the XRGB Minis 8 Pin RGB port adapter which can be purchased from Retro Gaming Cables:

http://www.retrogamingcables.com/europe ... -sale.html

Ask for the coloured borders, that's what is called overscan, it usually wasn't seen much on old CRT's



You can get rid of them if you play around with both the XRGB Mini's Zoom levels. Otherwise they are there to stay and are a normal part of the game.

[austin532]

The problem being though is you no longer get even scanlines with zoom ON. Or am I missing something important?

[BuckoA51]

You can sometimes get them to come back when zoomed, though usually they mess up. Sometimes fiddling around you can get them to draw properly. The terrible zooming options on the Mini are one reason why I hang onto my XRGB3/DVDO Combo.

[Xyga]

The terrible zooming options on the Mini are one reason why I hang onto my XRGB3/DVDO Combo.

Same here.
I don't understand how the DVDOs manage to make the XRGB's lines look even whatever the zooming factor.
Looking carefully they're actually not perfectly even, okay, but the 'unevenness' is hardly visible in most situations, really.
Any other zooming method/device I've used reveals the faults more, ruining the simulated scanlines 'experience'.

[streetwaves]

Newbie here folks. I've got my new Framemeister set up to output 720p, picture mode, etc (basically just used the recommended settings on the wiki). I am getting a weird look that I'm pretty sure isn't right, though, concerning scanlines. Basically it ends up looking like bands/jailbars/whatever:

So instead of just looking like a solid color, it looks as if it's some sort of dark-light-dark-light pattern. And no, I'm not referring to the scanlines themselves of course.

The other thing is that my NTSC-J Mega Drive seems to judder and lose sync a lot - do I need a new cable or will adjusting the sync level in the menu help? It seemed like I read most people only had issues with PAL Mega Drives.

EDIT:
Yeah, this looks like shit at the moment. The "jailbars" you see here are probably worse in person. Only shows up with scanlines on - take them off and it looks as it should.


On the same set, my Dreamcast via the Hanzo with scanlines enabled looks as it should.

[Ed Oscuro]

Because you said you were not technical I will try to explain in simple terms what you can use (if I make a mistake more experienced users are welcome to correct me).
First for PS1 and PS2 you need to use a RGB scart cable EU(pal)

Indeed I think you've missed something vital. The pinout matters: Using Euro SCART pinout for RGB on the Framemeister is bad! Do not do this! Instead buy a cable wired for the JP-21 pinout, or buy a "SCART to mini adapter" for use with the Euro SCART pinout cable. This info comes from here.

Note that the RGB-21 and SCART cables look identical; they just are wired differently.

Thank you for the clarification, because he tried the megadrive on the mini I understood he already had the SCART to mini adapter, could have been a jp megadrive.

JP or Euro or US doesn't matter (unless there's voltage level differences requiring capacitors or resistors in cables for a specific region, don't think that's the case here). The RGB pinout from the systems is the same - for the Mega Drive / Genesis / Master system, there is a difference between the plug those systems use and the plug used in the Mega Drive 2 and later systems. Beyond that they're compatible - the wiring of the SCART plug at the other end is what differs. RGB is RGB, no matter what console it's coming from. But wiring the RGB to JP-21 or Euro SCART pinouts gives incompatible results.

[blizzz]

streetwaves, maybe your TV can't scale 720p well. Does it look as bad in 480p output mode?

[MartijnK]

Hi,
Im new on this board. I was surfing through this thread but thought it might be easier if I just made an account to ask my questions.
I have ordered a xrgb mini and am really looking forward playing my retro games on it.
At the moment I have a pal snes (the same one my brotehrs and I played on since 1992).

1.Will the pal snes work ok with the xrgb mini or do I really need a ntsc console?
In that case I could relive my own games again on my old pal snes and take my time for the next decision:

2. I dont mind buying a ntsc snes (incl step down conv) but there is also the option to buy a modded pal snes with a 50hzpal/60hzntsc switch. From what I have read the experience with 50/60 modded pal snes is varied. Same question for genesis/MD. Some say it wont work as good as a real ntsc, other say it works just fine since some software patch.

3. While waiting and looking around for wich retro console to choose from next I also have a pal wii (component) with acces to the pal VC and a PS3 with acces to both pal/ntsc psone/ps2 classics. How will the the VC via wii and psone/ps2 games via PS3 work with the xrgb mini. Does this give an improvement over just plugging in the hdmi in the TV? Do scanlines work properly?

I hope these question arent answerd a 100 times allready and I just couldnt find them.

Thanks in advance!
Martijn

[streetwaves]

streetwaves, maybe your TV can't scale 720p well. Does it look as bad in 480p output mode?

I'll give that a try, but I did try that last night and I think it looked pretty similar. It's a 720p LG Plasma. I got the effect to look a lot less noticeable by tweaking the TV's picture settings, but it's definitely still there.


Looks like the problem is now visible every 6-7 lines. It's definitely a lot better now, but given that I get scanlines on my Dreamcast @ 480p with no problems I don't think the problem is with the TV. Adjusting the picture settings maybe just made the problem less obvious.

[Fudoh]

768p HDReady panels usually have troubles upscaling scanline images. How do you connect your DC ? Through VGA ? Technically there's no difference between the DC's signal with scanlines and a 480p output from the Mini. Maybe your TV applies different processing on the HDMI inputs. A HDMI to VGA converter could solve this for you.

[Xyga]

To me it looks like the problem is the 720p TV.
Guess it's a 1024x768 or 1366x768 panel, those usually can't even display real 720p right.

PS: Fudoh said it.

[streetwaves]

Thanks guys - with that, I plugged the mini into another TV set (albeit a rear-projection JVC that doesn't look nearly as good) and everything looked as it should. Looks like the scanline issue is only happening on my plasma so it must just have trouble upscaling the image. I've actually been thinking of upgrading to a newer 1080p plasma anyway, but I don't know what I'll do in the meantime.

By the way, I looked at the Dreamcast via the Hanzo and it looks like it shows a similar problem, but the scanlines are a lot fainter through the Hanzo and make it a lot less noticeable. Almost only visible when I take a picture of the screen.

[Xyga]

Hurry up if you want a new plasma, I bet LG are the last manufacturer to have any left in stock, and I doubt they will manufacture more in 2015.
It's a dying technology.

[streetwaves]

There are still a few Samsung plasmas left in stock, and those get quite high marks from users from what I can tell. It's true though, it's going away. I'd buy a used set if need be though.

[Ed Oscuro]

Does anybody do input lag tests for plasmas, though? I kind of like the idea of getting one before they disappear, myself, though the new Sony LCDs look really competitive at good prices.

I also read that some people experience motion blur on plasmas - 24Hz source mistakes would be an obvious source of this but I am worried that the flickering is still not enough to compete with backlight strobing on good LCDs for reducing motion blur.

[Xan]

I think as far as blacks go plasmas are still superior though, especially since not all of the lower end Sony LCDs seem to implement local dimming. Second the remark about input lag.

What's with 1024x768 being so common on plasmas, by the way? I understand that the pixels are rectangular, I've seen them advertised as "HD ready" and "4:3" though which is false advertising on so many levels. Would be quite annoying having a PS3 signal being downscaled, although maybe it's nice for hooking a Wii up if component processing isn't too bad.

[streetwaves]

I've found the picture quality of the plasmas I've owned to be quite superior to the LCD/LED sets I've owned. A big part of that is the black level of course. Not sure on input lag though.

I've been thinking of getting one of the Samsung F5300s before they're all gone. They seem to get rave reviews and are quite reasonably priced (about $900 for a 60").

[Xyga]

IIRC very few had acceptable lag, and only maybe one ever tested had around 1 frame (one of those fantastic Panasonic, can't remember the p/n nor find article, maybe I dreamt it lol).
I read plasmas couldn't do under 16ms because of the '600Hz' temporal dithering used in pretty much all sets from all brands.
Whatever, I'd love a beautiful 1-frame 60" plasma.

[BuckoA51]

The terrible zooming options on the Mini are one reason why I hang onto my XRGB3/DVDO Combo.

Same here.
I don't understand how the DVDOs manage to make the XRGB's lines look even whatever the zooming factor.
Looking carefully they're actually not perfectly even, okay, but the 'unevenness' is hardly visible in most situations, really.
Any other zooming method/device I've used reveals the faults more, ruining the simulated scanlines 'experience'.

I find if they look a little uneven then zooming in/out another notch or two usually cures it, but yeah they tend to look pretty good no matter how you zoom, and no picture blanking/loss of sync while you're playing with it either.

[marqs]

IIRC very few had acceptable lag, and only maybe one ever tested had around 1 frame (one of those fantastic Panasonic, can't remember the p/n nor find article, maybe I dreamt it lol).
I read plasmas couldn't do under 16ms because of the '600Hz' temporal dithering used in pretty much all sets from all brands.
Whatever, I'd love a beautiful 1-frame 60" plasma.

Most 2012 and earlier Panasonic plasmas had fairly low (2-frame or less) input latency. I think 1-frame or less is still quite uncommon among TV sets (monitors are a different matter), there are only a few Sony models I know which are certainly capable of that.

[Xyga]

Around 2 frames is very acceptable yes, some reviews show Panas and Samsungs in these waters.
From Cnet the fastest Panasonic they reviewed was the TC-P50S60 (34ms camera), it was available in different sizes from 42" to 65".
From hdtvtest it was the Samsung PN64H5000 (38ms LB, so maybe less in reality and depending on the theory).
Can't find the corresponding EU/UK part numbers for the Panas, but I bet those are all out of stock.

[BuckoA51]

Our Panasonic Plasma from around 2011 I think has 40ms input lag according to Leo's tester.

Playing with my mini today, I noticed that if you increase H width by more than a couple of notches, it completely borks the mini requiring a settings reset to get a picture again. Also, why can I adjust V pos when output is set to 720p, yet in 1080p mode each time you move it the picture blanks?

This thing sure is bug central, it makes software on those ABT scalers look good by comparison

[Xyga]

Our Panasonic Plasma from around 2011 I think has 40ms input lag according to Leo's tester.

So according to hdtvtest the stopwatch/camera method, supposedly more accurate for plasmas, would show an average of 22 or 23ms.
Using a single 'old' XRGB (DISPL, 1, 2, 2+, 3) your total wouldn't exceed 1.5 frames !

[BuckoA51]

Anyone got the game "Arkanoid - Doh again" on the SNES? Do you get sync dropouts during the intro?

[thermal_treasure]

Hi guys, I was wondering if anyone has used a Vogatek supergun with the XRGB Mini.

I recently hooked up my Vogatek MKIV/Pandoras Box 2 but get no signal when feeding them both to a framemeister with euro scart adapter. The Pandoras Box works flawlessly via it’s VGA out, so it could be a bad scart lead.

Do I need a specific scart lead when using a supergun on the Mini? Anything to look out for in regards to supergun settings?

Many thanks

[Edward_Tz]

New to this forum and I’ve been reading a lot of the information posted here. I’m getting ready to buy a bunch of scart cables and a Frameister.

I have a question about the 240p to 480i transitions. I’ve read that if you use 720p output that the black screen lasts only a few seconds compared to 1080p. Is that true and is that for all the games that have this problems? Games like symphony of the night on PS1 or Majora's Mask are my main concerns.