XRGB-mini Framemeister

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:36 am

The 720p captures with scanlines are not representative of what you get on your TV, since you TV needs to upscale the 720p to 1080p which makes the scanlines look much better than in the capture.

You might want to increase the white level a bit. That's a not a 1-CHIP SNES I assume ? You can tweak the H_SCALER setting to adjust the sharpness.

blizzz · Post by **blizzz** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:46 am

Here's how it looks on my SNES:

Spoiler

H_SCALER is set to 5 to increase the sharpness. All color settings on the Framemeister are at their default values, but I changed it a bit in post processing (contrast +12%, brightness -5%, saturation +5%). As Fudoh pointed out, the white in your screenshot is not bright enough. Also the green on the bushes looks very intense, but that might just be my imagination. Does it look like this on your TV too?

Edit: How did you make that screenshot (what capture card and program? did you take the screenshot in the capture program or from a recorded video?). It looks quite a bit better with a standard color conversion.
Your screenshot with colors converted from SMPTE-C to Rec.709 and some basic brightness and contrast adjustment.

Spoiler

Pasky · Post by **Pasky** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:38 pm

How do you adjust the saturation? Mine is grayed out at 32.

blizzz · Post by **blizzz** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:47 pm

In this case I changed the saturation in VirtualDub in the recording. You can't change it on the Framemeister for RGB sources. You have to do it either in the settings of your TV or somewhere in your capture chain. Normally TVs are more vibrant than PC monitors, so it should be fine while playing.

Smashbro29 · Post by **Smashbro29** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:05 pm

Fudoh wrote:The 720p captures with scanlines are not representative of what you get on your TV, since you TV needs to upscale the 720p to 1080p which makes the scanlines look much better than in the capture.

You might want to increase the white level a bit. That's a not a 1-CHIP SNES I assume ? You can tweak the H_SCALER setting to adjust the sharpness.

I captured that with Videokeeper and my X-Capture 1. If I were recording video or taking a still of this would you recommend forcing 1080p? And if so how? Would I make the source 1080p in OBS and let the X-Capture 1 do the upscaling or do I make the scene 1080p make the source 720p to just stretch the picture to the frame?

I really want settings that work for every system, I wonder if the white level is fine on those. Either way how much would you recommend raising it? And as far as 1-CHIP SNES goes, I really don't know. How can I check? H-SCALER, again I wonder if it will interfere with other systems.

blizzz wrote:Here's how it looks on my SNES:

Spoiler
H_SCALER is set to 5 to increase the sharpness. All color settings on the Framemeister are at their default values, but I changed it a bit in post processing (contrast +12%, brightness -5%, saturation +5%). As Fudoh pointed out, the white in your screenshot is not bright enough. Also the green on the bushes looks very intense, but that might just be my imagination. Does it look like this on your TV too?

Edit: How did you make that screenshot (what capture card and program? did you take the screenshot in the capture program or from a recorded video?). It looks quite a bit better with a standard color conversion.
Your screenshot with colors converted from SMPTE-C to Rec.709 and some basic brightness and contrast adjustment.
Spoiler

Green being intense has always been an issue for me. Especially via component (though I plan on transcoding all component to RGB in the future) I'll try your settings, let me know if there are other settings to try as well. See my last reply for how I captured it.

That does look better.

Dermotphysics · Post by **Dermotphysics** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:13 am

Hello everyone! Ive been lurking on this thread for a while and just decided to take the plunge and get a framemeister ( and open this forum account )!!

Unfortunatley Im having a terrible time with it specifically with my genesis. I have a mk 2 hooked up via rgb scart using the jp/euro scart component. The picture is beyond aweful. The screen seems a tad dark and the colours are washed out with a greyish blue and green I'm really not sure what to do about it.

Any ideas? Thanks guys. This thread is damn awesome!

I suppose i'll upload a screenshot pic to show you what i mean when i get home.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:30 am

Please upload a picture so we can see it. But it sounds like a grounding issue to me. Had a similar problem once.

Dermotphysics · Post by **Dermotphysics** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:16 pm

Thanks! - sorry to be "one of those new guys" Imagine there's tons of people getting on the mini bandwagon - and for good reason!

Here are two images I took of Sonic 3 running on RGB

http://imgur.com/a/elfJx

That is my first time using imgur, I hope the link works.

keropi · Post by **keropi** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:00 pm

anyone know WHY the dc+mini connection is soooo picky? A picture will only be shown with a SYNC_LEVEL for 18~21 , anything else will cause a blank screen... and even these values are crappy, there is some image loss , bleh
if I make the 31khz RGB cable, will all games work with it or there is a chance that some won't like it, like with the vga boxes?

edit:
well , it appears that the vga compatibility problem still exists... I don't mind sticking to 480i atm , if only it worked reliable...
also tried GigaWing PAL , it has a 50/60hz selection screen, if the mini is caibrated to work with NTSC games then you don't see anything in that 50hz selection screen. Huge fail.

edit2:
well, today I can't get a synced picture at all, the HAIS vga box I have works better than the mini...

, is there a way to make it also produce a 31khz RGB signal for use with the mini?

Maybe I need to integrate this to the box?

edit3:
allright I was told on assembler forums how to mod the box so I'll try it.
Still the fact that I can't get a picture with the mini with a normal scart cable is just bogus.

zakruowrath · Post by **zakruowrath** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:57 pm

Ok, I'm very confused on something to do with the Sega Saturn. I've read the European Saturn has 12v on pin 1 for I believe aspect ratio switching, where's on the NTSC Saturn, pin 1 is used for sync and it seems the SCART wires for PAL vs NTSC are wired differently?

I ask being since I have a NTSC Sega Saturn, a PAL SCART cable wouldn't work with the XRGB being it needs sync for the picture to display and it's wired different for the 12v blanking correct?

I don't want to damage my XRGB so I'm thinking, buy a Japanese 21 wired SCART cable and have an adapter for my SCART switch to adapt it back to Euro SCART then have what's coming off the SCART switch adapted from Euro SCART to the mini 8 pin RGB DIN.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:53 pm

Dermotphysics wrote:Thanks! - sorry to be "one of those new guys" Imagine there's tons of people getting on the mini bandwagon - and for good reason!

Here are two images I took of Sonic 3 running on RGB

http://imgur.com/a/elfJx

That is my first time using imgur, I hope the link works.

Hmm, that doesn't look similar to the grounding issue I had. My picture was all black, with very few colors at all. Almost the complete opposite of yours.

I don't know where you live, but have you tried connecting the Mega Drive with RGB directly to your TV (if your TV has a RGB input).

blizzz · Post by **blizzz** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:10 pm

Dermotphysics wrote:I have a mk 2 hooked up via rgb scart using the jp/euro scart component. The picture is beyond aweful. The screen seems a tad dark and the colours are washed out with a greyish blue and green I'm really not sure what to do about it.

Just to clarify, by "jp/euro scart component" you mean a (Euro) SCART to 8-pin adapter and not the (Japanese) RGB21 to 8-pin adapter that came with the Framemeister, right? Where did you buy the adapter, or did you rewire it yourself?

Dermotphysics · Post by **Dermotphysics** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:17 am

Crisis Averted.

-Turns out I'm an Idiot.

blizzz wrote:
Dermotphysics wrote:I have a mk 2 hooked up via rgb scart using the jp/euro scart component. The picture is beyond aweful. The screen seems a tad dark and the colours are washed out with a greyish blue and green I'm really not sure what to do about it.
Just to clarify, by "jp/euro scart component" you mean a (Euro) SCART to 8-pin adapter and not the (Japanese) RGB21 to 8-pin adapter that came with the Framemeister, right? Where did you buy the adapter, or did you rewire it yourself?

I was using an Ebay bought SCART converter made for the Framemeister specifically to convert a EURO-SCART to the RGB input on the Framemeister,

The issue was the SCART cables themselves.

I had ordered a pair of RGB-Scarts from Ebay for my Genesis and SNES, not realising that there is a difference between SCART's intended for PAL and NTSC signals... In order for NTSC to display correctly through SCART, The R, G & B wires need have a resistor an capacitor popped on to attenuate the signal (220uF and 75ohm according to a quick Google result). I had a few 65ohm resistors and a some 100uF caps rolling around so I decided to experiment and throw them in on the Genesis SCART, and VOILA it worked!

The colours were all presented correctly and popped of the screen beautifully.

I will re-do the job this weekend and add them to the snes SCART too once the "correct" components I ordered online arrive. Damn that was a lesson hard learn't!! I feel awe-full silly!

Konsolkongen wrote:
Dermotphysics wrote:Thanks! - sorry to be "one of those new guys" Imagine there's tons of people getting on the mini bandwagon - and for good reason!

Here are two images I took of Sonic 3 running on RGB

http://imgur.com/a/elfJx

That is my first time using imgur, I hope the link works.
Hmm, that doesn't look similar to the grounding issue I had. My picture was all black, with very few colors at all. Almost the complete opposite of yours.

I don't know where you live, but have you tried connecting the Mega Drive with RGB directly to your TV (if your TV has a RGB input).

At least it wasn't a grounding Issue. I live in the US right now, I'm originally from the UK & Ireland. I wish I could directly try the SCARTs.

Thanks for getting back to my posts guys!

keropi · Post by **keropi** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:35 pm

I begin to remember reading that DC+mini has problems... at any rate I solved it the hard way: modded my vga box to also output a 15khz RGBs signal and it works perfect now. No idea why the stock console sync is not working for me (tested 2 pal consoles).
If you combine H+V syncs then both 15/31khz work and look great on the mini.

TheShadowRunner · Post by **TheShadowRunner** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:38 pm

Having a slight sync issue with the PS2 + Mini, I wonder if it's just my system, or maybe the current mini fw?
Here's what happens, with PS2 V9 JPN with HDD.
When I switch it on from standby, I always get the opening "Sony Computer Entertainment" screen with blue clouds in the background. Then 2 possibilities:
- either I can see the screen with "Browser" and "Sytem Configuration", all good.
or
- the screen goes black and stays black.
It seems to happen randomly.
When stuck on the black screen, although the Mini's "Input" led is green, I just need to change to another input, say, Video or HDMI1, and THEN come back to RGB straight away, and the Mini displays the picture alright.
I tried altering the Sync Level from 9 to 4, then to 20, it didn't affect this behavior at all (and it's perfectly stable on 9 anyway, so I put it back there).
Does anyone experience this as well with PS2?
It's really a tiny tiny annoyance, but if there's a workaround, i'm taking ;)

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:26 pm

I have a V9 EU model. I have installed a LM1881 inside for C.sync and I've never experienced this. So it could be a workaround if you're willing to try that. The upside to C.sync is that you never have to deal with the sync adjustment in the XRGB-mini's menu. One of the reason why I only use C.sync on all my systems. The other being that the Extron Matrix'es will only work with C.sync

keropi · Post by **keropi** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:35 am

I just modded my rgb cable and moved the signal from the composite pin to the c-sync pin, it works perfect and you don't have to build a seperator

TheShadowRunner · Post by **TheShadowRunner** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:02 am

Konsolkongen wrote:I have a V9 EU model. I have installed a LM1881 inside for C.sync and I've never experienced this. So it could be a workaround if you're willing to try that. The upside to C.sync is that you never have to deal with the sync adjustment in the XRGB-mini's menu. One of the reason why I only use C.sync on all my systems. The other being that the Extron Matrix'es will only work with C.sync ;)

keropi wrote:I just modded my rgb cable and moved the signal from the composite pin to the c-sync pin, it works perfect and you don't have to build a seperator :wink:

Thanks for your inputs guys. I'd like to try your method keropi, however it doesn't seem like PSone/PS2 provides pure csync directly on the Multi-out? (pin 6 is standard composite video isn't it?)

Edit: Or does Luma (pin 5) provide a cleaner sync than Composite video (pin 6)..?

austin532 · Post by **austin532** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:20 am

What would be the best way to use Optical cable with the mini if it's using RGB? I currently have Optical coming from the PS2 to the A/V receiver and the PS2 using RGB in to the Mini which is then plugged into the receiver. The problem is I don't get digital sound or the receiver is not recognizing it while using RGB. If I use Component, Optical works fine. I'm guessing this is a problem because RGB is sending out an Analog sound signal? Is there any way to disable the sound coming from the RGB input?

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:24 am

I've been using RGB from the PS2 along with digital audio directly in my amp for many many years.

Analogue audio is always active, no matter if you use component or RGB output - so that's certainly not the reason.

austin532 · Post by **austin532** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:57 am

I'm not sure what the problem is then. It definitely sounds like it has something to do with the Mini because as soon as I unplug it from the receiver, I can hear sound and the receiver recognizes it as digital.

Unseen · Post by **Unseen** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:03 am

austin532 wrote:I'm not sure what the problem is then. It definitely sounds like it has something to do with the Mini because as soon as I unplug it from the receiver, I can hear sound and the receiver recognizes it as digital.

The Mini always inserts audio into its HDMI signal and your receiver probably puts audio in HDMI at a higher priority than audio over optical. Some receivers have options to select which input type should have the highest priority.

keropi · Post by **keropi** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:46 am

TheShadowRunner wrote:[...]
keropi wrote:I just modded my rgb cable and moved the signal from the composite pin to the c-sync pin, it works perfect and you don't have to build a seperator
Thanks for your inputs guys. I'd like to try your method keropi, however it doesn't seem like PSone/PS2 provides pure csync directly on the Multi-out? (pin 6 is standard composite video isn't it?)

Edit: Or does Luma (pin 5) provide a cleaner sync than Composite video (pin 6)..?

exactly! use pin5 that is luma to get better results, even connected directly to a lcd you'll see a difference. I just opened the cable ps-plug and moved the cable/pin from 6 (that is composite video) to 5 , it did the trick just fine

TheShadowRunner · Post by **TheShadowRunner** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:08 pm

keropi wrote:exactly! use pin5 that is luma to get better results, even connected directly to a lcd you'll see a difference. I just opened the cable ps-plug and moved the cable/pin from 6 (that is composite video) to 5 , it did the trick just fine

Thanks for this advice.
So I went in and did the same as you, just moved pin 6 to pin 5.
It was some serious bullshit to open this end of the (official) cable without breaking anything

Put everything back together and tested: the image quality, I couldn't notice any change honestly.
But the issue, thankfully quite rare, is still there :S
I believe more and more it comes from the Mini not re-syncing correctly.
As again if I just press "RGB" on the Mini remote (forcing a resync), image is back.
Luckily also this blackout only happens at this very place, between the "S.C.E intro" and the "Browser/SysConf screen", it seems the signal drops for an instant here which makes the Mini need to resync.. most often it's able to, but sometimes not for some reason.

keropi · Post by **keropi** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:55 pm

^ nicely done!
I am surprised you didn't notice any difference, for me it was huge! Maybe it's just how my tv works...

Sorry to hear it didn't help with the framemeister issue, it seems everyone has a different one , for me it's the famicom+nesrgb , c-sync does not sync for me and I have to use composite

scottmog · Post by **scottmog** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:56 pm

Got my xrgb mini last week and am looking to upgrade some cables.

I was looking at this thread and got a couple of my answer but wanted to double check.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=49984

My setup:
NTSC Nintendo (Toaster) *Unmodified* --Will modify october or november--
Japanese Super Famicom *Unmodified*
NTSC Nintendo 64 *Unmodified* --Will modify this month--

I'll be going all euro scart cables so I dont screw anything up. Here is a list of what I am buying to make sure I get everything correctly.

1. 1x XRGB -> SCART switchbox (??Should I get the one with the built in sync stripper instead??) http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/euro ... -sale.html
2. 1x male to male SCART cable to complete the XRGB -> SCART switchbox connection
3. 3x nintendo multi out to SCART (??Should I get Composite Video or Composite Sync??) http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/supe ... -sale.html
4. 1x nintendo rca to SCART http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/nint ... scart.html

I will be modifying the N64 this month and getting the NES modded maybe next or the following month because of the price.

Please let me know if my setup all makes sense and is complete, thank you for all your help!

TheShadowRunner · Post by **TheShadowRunner** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:09 pm

keropi wrote:^ nicely done!
I am surprised you didn't notice any difference, for me it was huge! Maybe it's just how my tv works...

Hmm no I don't think, for the signal is digitized by the Mini before it reaches the TV of course, so if there's any change it's generated on the Mini. Maybe the picture is a tiny bit darker here with sync on luma versus composite video but I may very well be imagining this

Sorry to hear it didn't help with the framemeister issue, it seems everyone has a different one , for me it's the famicom+nesrgb , c-sync does not sync for me and I have to use composite

No worries hah, though could you just tell me if on your side you sense a cut between the "S.C.E screen" and "Config/SysSetting screen", like does your TV OSD show up, or do you see anything that might indicate the Mini re-syncs between the 2?

scottmog wrote:1. 1x XRGB -> SCART switchbox (??Should I get the one with the built in sync stripper instead??) http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/euro ... -sale.html

I believe for most consoles a sync stripper isn't necessary anymore with the latest firmware 1.11, however, to be confimed for MegaDrive/NEC/Neo-Geo..

scottmog wrote:2. 1x male to male SCART cable to complete the XRGB -> SCART switchbox connection

If you plan to _always_ go through the SCART Switchbox, maybe it's wiser to find a XRGB to SCART with a male SCART plug that will connect directly to the Switchbox? The least cable/length you use, the best.
I see retrogamingcables offer a "Switchbox to PVM/BVM", but not currently "Switchbox to XRGB Mini"..

3. 3x nintendo multi out to SCART (??Should I get Composite Video or Composite Sync??) http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/supe ... -sale.html

I can only speak for the SFC so far, since it's the japanese model / Csync being available, might as well go with that.

keropi · Post by **keropi** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:17 pm

TheShadowRunner wrote:[...]
No worries hah, though could you just tell me if on your side you sense a cut between the "S.C.E screen" and "Config/SysSetting screen", like does your TV OSD show up, or do you see anything that might indicate the Mini re-syncs between the 2?[...]

nope, the transition from the SONY boot animation to the system's menu is smooth, there is no resolution change for me... using a PAL ps2 with RGB

TheShadowRunner · Post by **TheShadowRunner** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:41 pm

keropi wrote:nope, the transition from the SONY boot animation to the system's menu is smooth, there is no resolution change for me... using a PAL ps2 with RGB

Interesting, hmm, you wouldn't have Visual_Set > Sync_Mode set to OFF by any chance?
With "Sync Mode" to OFF, I don't have the TV OSD coming up and the Mini doesn't seem to be doing a resync, it's smooth as well!
Also could you precise your PS2 model, if a HDD is attached and are you outputting with the mini at 720p or 1080p?

Edit: yes, it seems that was it! With "Sync Mode" to Off, the black screen that sometimes occured after "S.C.E intro" never happens anymore..

arovane · Post by **arovane** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:20 pm

Does someone know if I can plug a scart switcher that outputs in mini din 8 directly in the framemeister?
Which means mini din 8--> mini din 8, and not mini din 8--> scart--> scart--> mini din 8
I know I will lose the potential need of a sync stripper but none of my consoles actually needs that.
I'm just concerned if it can damage the framemeister or console, or if it simply won't work...
In this case what should I do for it to work, concretely?

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XRGB-mini Framemeister

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