XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Fudoh]

With those systems (XBox, PS2 and DC) I would get neither. Both machines are really geared towards 240p and the only 240p content you'll see are PS1 games running on a PS2 (if that's your focus).

For 480p output from your XBox and PS2 you're best of with a Component to HDMI converter (no lag, no scaling). For your DC get a Gefen scaler (if you're not satisfied with VGA directly into your Dell. If you think you'll play lots of 480i games, you should consider getting a DVDO scaler. It handles 480i very well and also solves the component to HDMI and VGA to HDMI issue.

I don't see you getting happy with a XRGB.

About the 480i handling: the XRGB-3 does simulate a CRT at 480i. The Framemeister does real deinterlacing.

[quash]

The XRGB-3 doesn't deinterlace 480i? That is interesting.

Never heard of DVDO until now. Google gave me the Edge Green, which seems like a pretty good unit. I don't see a VGA input on it, however. I guess there are other solutions for that, though.

Guess I'll wait until I get my Saturn and Mega Drive out from storage before I get a Micomsoft box. Thanks again!

[Fudoh]

The XRGB-3 doesn't deinterlace 480i? That is interesting.

not properly, it just doubles the lines of each field and displays them like a CRT does - one field at a time.

Never heard of DVDO until now.

please, just spend some time on my website: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

[CkRtech]

For 480p output from your XBox and PS2 you're best of with a Component to HDMI converter (no lag, no scaling).

Interesting. I actually dusted off (quite literally) the PS2 yesterday and started a new game on Valkyrie Profile 2. I am using component cables straight to the TV and using X+triangle to enable progressive scan. It doesn't really look....great. I don't have a d-sub to component cable for the xrgb, and it sounds like (from what I have read here) that going through the component input on the xrgb isn't really very good anyway.

If anything, I would say that the image looks a bit blurry. In addition, I seem to have some interference or some sort of noise in the signal. I thought perhaps that was because my first component cable run from PS2 to TV was a bit of a stretch...across various power cables. I got a bit of slack and relocated the cable path, but I still see the same bit of noise. I have just kinda ignored it for now and kept playing the game.

In typical shmups forum fashion, I am now considering my options/issues - low quality component cable? Prone to interference? Is it interference external or internal to the PS2? Is it best to pick up an HDMI convertor? Is it worth the pain of modding the PS2 to pass RGBS to the framemeister since it can take 480p that way...?

[Fudoh]

The 480p component performance is highly dependent on the TV or monitor you're using. 31khz component straignt into a large TV usually doesn't look good. Sony only started in 2013 to get this right. All others still don't. HDMI is a bit better, but still dependent on the TV set you're using. On PC monitors you usually get little to no processing, so 480p through HDMI usually looks ok.

The PS2's component signal has a lot of noise. It's the display's job to filters this out. Again, some do it very well (newer Sonys), other don't. In my experience most $30 YUV to HDMI converters to it also quite well.

[austin532]

After playing several PS2 games using the Mini I can say that 480p is soft and doesn't look as good as it should. That being said though they still look slightly better then going straight from PS2 to my TV using component. Maybe it's just me but some games actually look sharper in 480i mode on the Mini.

Why would you need to mod the PS2 and not just use a Black Box or Extron for RGB 480p?

[CkRtech]

Why would you need to mod the PS2 and not just use a Black Box or Extron for RGB 480p?

I suppose you could go that route (many people do), however you could pop open the PS2 and
1: Create composite sync by tapping the native H and V sync signals
2: Disable sync on green
3: Disable Macrovision
4: Disable Component "Forceback"

as defined here: http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:p ... 2_rgb_sync

Perhaps 3 and 4 are unnecessary since they are intended for DVD playback, however I wonder about the usage of the term interference. Does that mean noise of some sort that is present at the AV out, or does it simply mean the "interference" as in "activation" of things such as Macrovision and Component Forceback for DVD playback?

So if you did all of those things, switched the PS2 to RGB mode, and ran RGBS to the framemeister (no extra processing/signal extraction required), you should (in theory) have the best native signal you can get, right? (I would probably cut the composite video feed to the multiout, replace it with composite sync, and use a custom cable)

[Fudoh]

Maybe it's just me but some games actually look sharper in 480i mode on the Mini.

no, it's not just you. The Mini definitely gets sharper results from 480i sources than from 480p ones. 480p still has more detail during movements though.

[Fudoh]

So if you did all of those things, switched the PS2 to RGB mode, and ran RGBS to the framemeister (no extra processing/signal extraction required), you should (in theory) have the best native signal you can get, right?

I'd be glad if somebody tried that. Definitely sounds like a plan, since it would unify the type of signal (RGBs) you'd get from both 15 and 31khz games.

[TheShadowRunner]

So if you did all of those things, switched the PS2 to RGB mode, and ran RGBS to the framemeister (no extra processing/signal extraction required), you should (in theory) have the best native signal you can get, right?

I'd be glad if somebody tried that. Definitely sounds like a plan, since it would unify the type of signal (RGBs) you'd get from both 15 and 31khz games.

I'm very interested as well, although I use a 50000 (wiki says the video signal handling changed for this model ). I wonder if this is doable by software however, forcing the PS2 to NOT go Component when 480p is output.
Finding out what decides for the "240p/480i-> RGBS" versus "480p -> Component" behavior is where the answer is, does the BIOS decide this? the GS?
As a soft solution would be much better suited, would allow to keep using the multi-out and not have to solder to the mobo etc..

[Fudoh]

I wonder if this is doable by software however, forcing the PS2 to NOT go Component when 480p is output.

The PS2 doesn't go "component" when going 480p. 480p works in RGB. It's just RGsB instead of RGBs. The forced component thing just applies to movies.

[kel]

What's strange is that it seems that micomsoft have gone to the trouble of connecting the RGB_IN to the SOG RGB connections of the ADV7441A video encoder IC instead of the normal RGBs connections but seem to have left the sync option set to separate sync with no way to change it to SOG in the menu or auto detect the input.

[TheShadowRunner]

The PS2 doesn't go "component" when going 480p. 480p works in RGB. It's just RGsB instead of RGBs. The forced component thing just applies to movies.

Ah damn I made that mistake again, understood.

I asked advices on the subject to PS2 connoisseur l_oliveira, here's his detailed reply.

It's impossible for the PS2 to do what you want [force RGBs for everything]. Here's the explanation why:

Due to how the DVD player and Macrovision stuff work SONY decided to design the PS2 A/V port this way: (FYI there's actually two designs here and I'll explain both)

GS > 24 bit digital video BUS > DVE chip
GS > RGB ANALOG signals > AVE chip

DVE = Digital Video Encoder
AVE = Analog Video Encoder

The AVE chip can only output RGB or YCbPr. It DOES NOT OUTPUT ANY KIND OF SYNC when on RGB 15Khz mode (due to how the original PlayStation was designed)

The DVE chip outputs CVBS and S-Video and is capable of adding MACROVISION to the video signal it outputs. It requires a digital connection to the GS chip because the actual MACROVISION activation signal comes embedded in the video stream. When on 15Khz mode you're supposed to use one of the DVE video outputs to harvest sync from. When on 31Khz mode, the DVE stops outputting any video signal, Y, C and CVBS lines are completely cut.

Because of that the AVE chip outputs Y on the Green wire (when on YCbPr mode) or G + CSYNC when on RGB mode (that's called VESA SoG or VESA Sync on Green, a VESA defined standard which actually a lot of VGA monitors do support).

On newer consoles (SCPH-3900x or newer) the AVE was abolished, analog RGB removed completely from the GS chip and the DAC was moved into the DVE chip so now RGB and Component video comes from DVE.

So nope it's not possible to do what you want (get standard VGA) from the PS2 without severe hacking.

A suggestion of mine is use a decent sync splitter with clamp (such as the ROHM BA7078) to design a board which split sync from green. Adding a LM1881 to the BA7078 you can feed it external csync (obtained from CVBS or Y) which means the circuit would also operate correctly in 15khz.

I hope it helps the other PS2 Video output noobs like me understand what's going on.

What's strange is that it seems that micomsoft have gone to the trouble of connecting the RGB_IN to the SOG RGB connections of the ADV7441A video encoder IC instead of the normal RGBs connections but seem to have left the sync option set to separate sync with no way to change it to SOG in the menu or auto detect the input.

Do you mean the RGB_IN on the mini is currently wired in such a way that it could "understand" RGsB?
Wow it would be the most ideal solution if the mini's "RGB_In" could be set to RGsB, even if only manually.
Another firmware update request for Jacob?

[kel]

Do you mean the RGB_IN on the mini is currently wired in such a way that it could "understand" RGsB?
Wow it would be the most ideal solution if the mini's "RGB_In" could be set to RGsB, even if only manually.
Another firmware update request for Jacob?

Yep, I traced it out with a multimeter the other week and it is connected to the RGsB input but also has a separate Composite sync.

I can't remember for sure without double checking but when I looked at the datasheet for the register maps, the sync input was selectable. It's quite a long datasheet so it would take a little time to find that part again. I will try to confirm when I have 5 min.

EDIT: Just had another look and it seems that the values of 2 registers in the user map need to be modified for when when the RGB input on the Framemeister selected. Register 85h needs to be modified to autodetect the sync source instead of being set to Manual, CS on HS/CS pin like it is at the moment and register C4h needs to be modified to manually mux the sync stripper to the SOG pin instead of the SOY pin which I assume it is set to at the moment being as though it is the default value.

These register values should be stored in the eeprom and accessed as needed depending on which input is selected on the Framemeister. If we could find where these values are stored in the eeprom then it should be as simple as editing the eeprom file in the update folder with a hex editor and then updating the Framemeister with it.

I might try to sniff the I2C bus to see if I can find out where it reads the values in the eeprom if I get time.

EDIT2: Thinking about it the default value for register 85h is actually to autodetect the sync source so maybe it will be just a case of setting register C4h to mux the sync stripper to the SOG pin.

[TheShadowRunner]

Yep, I traced it out with a multimeter the other week and it is connected to the RGsB input but also has a separate Composite sync.

I can't remember for sure without double checking but when I looked at the datasheet for the register maps, the sync input was selectable. It's quite a long datasheet so it would take a little time to find that part again. I will try to confirm when I have 5 min.

EDIT: Just had another look and it seems that the values of 2 registers in the user map need to be modified for when when the RGB input on the Framemeister selected. Register 85h needs to be modified to autodetect the sync source instead of being set to Manual, CS on HS/CS pin like it is at the moment and register C4h needs to be modified to manually mux the sync stripper to the SOG pin instead of the SOY pin which I assume it is set to at the moment being as though it is the default value.

These register values should be stored in the eeprom and accessed as needed depending on which input is selected on the Framemeister. If we could find where these values are stored in the eeprom then it should be as simple as editing the eeprom file in the update folder with a hex editor and then updating the Framemeister with it.

I might try to sniff the I2C bus to see if I can find out where it reads the values in the eeprom if I get time.

EDIT2: Thinking about it the default value for register 85h is actually to autodetect the sync source so maybe it will be just a case of setting register C4h to mux the sync stripper to the SOG pin.

Wow you went quite far!
But I'm not that much of a tech guy so I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do.
Are you trying to find a way to modify the current firmware so as to force RGsB detection instead of RGBs as a proof of concept, to see if the mini is able to do it at all?

Edit: By the way, now that I am more familiarized with the mini, I see 2 things that could be enhanced.
1. The Sharpness setting: it seems to me a value of 1 is immeditaley too strong. Of course beyond 1 is totally unusable. I wonder if the hardware would allow intermediary settings if Micomsoft allowed it, like 0.5, 0.6, etc.. or if 1 is the strict minimum the hardware can do as soon as Sharpness is enabled.

2. The "Auto Scaler" setting: it is clear that "Game" is best for 240p and "Video" for 480i.
So I don't understand why this "Auto Scaler" setting really isn't automatic contrary to what its name implies, selecting Game OR Video based on the input signal?
Would there be any adverse effects if the Mini did so automatically? I can't think of any but I'm probably missing something..

[Fudoh]

1. The Sharpness setting

don't use it. Leave it at 0. End of discussion.

Use the H_SCALER setting instead to regulate your sharpness. 5 is usual the sharpest setting, 10/11 is the limit you can go to until it gets too soft. If you need a softer CRT look, use 480p output instead of 720p. If you need a sharper one, use 1080p instead.

2. The "Auto Scaler" setting: it is clear that "Game" is best for 240p and "Video" for 480i.

again. Don't use it. Use manual settings. You need V_SCALER = 5 for true 480i content. For fake 480i content (actually 240p running in 480i) others work fine. The H_SCALER setting adjust the overall sharpness. 5 is the sharpest for 240p.

So I don't understand why this "Auto Scaler" setting really isn't automatic contrary to what its name implies

that's not what the name implies. At least not for Micomsoft's engineers. They provide you two presets to take the manual adjustment off your hands - that's all.

[TheShadowRunner]

don't use it. Leave it at 0. End of discussion.

Use the H_SCALER setting instead to regulate your sharpness. 5 is usual the sharpest setting, 10/11 is the limit you can go to until it gets too soft. If you need a softer CRT look, use 480p output instead of 720p. If you need a sharper one, use 1080p instead.

Thanks for the tip, I disabled Sharpness and set H_SCALER to 5, it looks just great with 240p (I output at 720p with Display Area to "+1" on TV).

again. Don't use it. Use manual settings. You need V_SCALER = 5 for true 480i content. For fake 480i content (actually 240p running in 480i) others work fine. The H_SCALER setting adjust the overall sharpness. 5 is the sharpest for 240p.

So if I got it right, H_SCALER to 5 for pretty much everything, V_SCALER to 6 for 240p and V_SCALER to 5 for 480i. I notice if I let V_SCALER to 5 for 240p, the image is too soft, definitely needs 6.

that's not what the name implies. At least not for Micomsoft's engineers.

[Fudoh]

I notice if I let V_SCALER to 5 for 240p, the image is too soft, definitely needs 6.

but 6 on 480i/p halves your resolution and causes more jaggies. It works quite well on a number of games, but it's really a setting you'll change a lot for 480i/p material.

H_SCALER 5 works for most 240p sources. On my N64 for example 10 looks much better than 5.

[TheShadowRunner]

but 6 on 480i/p halves your resolution and causes more jaggies. It works quite well on a number of games, but it's really a setting you'll change a lot for 480i/p material.

Hence the need for profiles again
And yes indeed, V_SCALER to 6 is just wrong with PS2 @480i.

H_SCALER 5 works for most 240p sources. On my N64 for example 10 looks much better than 5.

Ah good to know. For SFC 5 is just great.

[BuckoA51]

If you look on the wiki H_SCALER = 6, V_SCALER = 6 is what auto scaler in game mode does anyway, this works nicely for most 240p sources.

What is up with the minis Zoom function? I was zooming some 480p content and the scanline overlay would be right one moment and broken the next, even with identical settings. Maybe some day someone's going to invent a scaler that doesn't have dozens of annoying little bugs.

[Fudoh]

Maybe some day someone's going to invent a scaler that doesn't have dozens of annoying little bugs

this involves close cooperation between the devs and a large community. If you follow Lumagen's development closely - they're doing this exactly (and have been for many years). Most companies simply can't afford a huge beta testing group before a product launch and only few (like Lumagen) can afford to put so much energy into a product after it's launch. Lumagen can only do it, because their machines are built on the same software for many (machine-) generations now.

[TheShadowRunner]

If you look on the wiki H_SCALER = 6, V_SCALER = 6 is what auto scaler in game mode does anyway, this works nicely for most 240p sources.

Yes, I actually did. I think though that the tip from Fudoh about setting H_SCALER to 5 for a sharper image with 240p (SFC at least) would be a worthy addition. Without this I would still be using Sharpness = 1 which isn't optimal.

[kel]

Wow you went quite far!
But I'm not that much of a tech guy so I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do.
Are you trying to find a way to modify the current firmware so as to force RGsB detection instead of RGBs as a proof of concept, to see if the mini is able to do it at all?

That's the idea, I'm just not having much luck sniffing the I2C bus at the moment

[austin532]

I assume we are talking about 240p. Yes games look better with sharpness set to 0 and most 2D sprite based games look best with H_Scaler on 5 however the 3D polygon games from the PS1 and N64 definitely benefit from having a softer CRT image. I usually have to crank it up to 13/14 before it looks tolerable.

I've tried outputting in 480p however the image doesn't upscale nicely on my TV.

[kel]

Wow you went quite far!
But I'm not that much of a tech guy so I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do.
Are you trying to find a way to modify the current firmware so as to force RGsB detection instead of RGBs as a proof of concept, to see if the mini is able to do it at all?

That's the idea, I'm just not having much luck sniffing the I2C bus at the moment

Sorry guys but it seems that I didn't originally trace the RGB_IN circuit correctly. The SOG pin is actually connected to pin 20 of the scart connector and not green. Even If I had of managed to find the register map values in the eeprom and change them it wouldn't have made any difference, unfortunately.

Hope that I didn't build anyone's hopes up. It's probably not worth asking Micomsoft for it as I don't think that it is even possible now, the connections just aren't there.

[TheShadowRunner]

Sorry guys but it seems that I didn't originally trace the RGB_IN circuit correctly. The SOG pin is actually connected to pin 20 of the scart connector and not green. Even If I had of managed to find the register map values in the eeprom and change them it wouldn't have made any difference, unfortunately.

Hope that I didn't build anyone's hopes up. It's probably not worth asking Micomsoft for it as I don't think that it is even possible now, the connections just aren't there.

No worries man, it was totally worth investigating anyway, so thanks for your findings.

[geekmiki]

I'm having an aspect ratio problem with a Dreamcast + Framemeister. Basically, the Dreamcast outputs 720x480 (as reported by the Framemeister) and the TV adjusts it as if it was 640x480 which results in a wrong aspect ratio.
I've read this is more or less normal, but has anyone found a way to correct it via the Framemeister?

My DC is connected as follows:
DC->Hanzo->Kenzei->Framemeister

Also I've noticed that this issue only appears with 480i content. 480p seems to be fine and has a correct 4:3 aspect ratio.

[blizzz]

Attention: Our XRGB Mini stock is currently running very low. Once we are sold out, the next restocks will not arrive until middle of November. Get your XRGB Mini while you can!

Looks like Micomsoft can't catch up with the demand. I wonder if the Kotaku article and the Youtube video had any significant influence on it.

[CkRtech]

Attention: Our XRGB Mini stock is currently running very low. Once we are sold out, the next restocks will not arrive until middle of November. Get your XRGB Mini while you can!

Looks like Micomsoft can't catch up with the demand. I wonder if the Kotaku article and the Youtube video had any significant influence on it.

That's a good question. If you Google xrgb framemeister, the junkerHQ wiki pops up as well as Fudoh's website and Solaris. Of course, this thread is listed at the bottom of the wiki entry under current discussions.

Makes you wonder if we may see a few new users popping in here at some point as they start to flex their RGB muscles and scratch their heads.

[Smashbro29]

Spoiler

How does this look? I'm using straight RGB SCART right now, nothing in between.