Tropes vs Women in video games

[Randorama]

I'm not really sure how to respond to this: your point is not my point. What I said about Reco vs. Nausicaa is simply that the comparison bears consideration; it isn't pulled out of thin air, but rather what Wakabayashi/Kotani apparently had at one point for the design. Why did they change it? I think that's interesting to think about, especially with regard to what _we_ want in the future. Regarding japanese women and the relativism of different generations, so what?

The comparison is interesting (again: I have a case at home), but my point is that if you like more solidly based arguments, it is everyone's guess whether a given role (Nausicaa, who was always drawn with "big" breasts, mind you: Miyazaki's women are always full breasted) has been generally influentially or not, to the extent that it could determine Reco's final design, for a game aimed at generations that may have no clue about Nausicaa. Besides...Nausicaa was an interesting character because Miyazaki spent years to flesh it out, in the anime and the manga. How this is related to a videogame sprite in a shmup? Can we compare these aspects, aside the looks?

This is also difficult to respond to, in no small part due to your snarkiness, but perhaps the word intuition was poorly chosen. I'm attesting to the fact that without certain kinds of evidence, a proposition like "games have a negative gender bias towards women" can't be convincingly made. Its preaching to the converted or demagoguery. So I agree with you: my comment was recognizing that shortcoming in myself as well (although, fyi, I do have more than "intuitions" about this subject matter, I just don't feel like trotting them out in a very complicated and probably boring internet argument).

...and my new snarky comment is that it is foolish trusting to intuitions, because they can be comically wrong, very likely in this specific case. But in case this is not clear: I took exception to a post you made, not to your persona, so to speak.

Do you really expect me to answer that as you've phrased it?

Ok, so I take that you answered "mu":

I think of this entire project differently. The situation of women overall will not be greatly improved if, in isolation and by fiat decree, video games suddenly put women in more active and less gendered roles.

I concur.

And there's a preciousness to this issue that comes from it being argued online by young "first world problems" types; BUT, engaging in criticism with media is still important for a variety of different reasons.

Hence my radical-chic label to the whole non-sensical discussion on an aspect of videogames that:

a. At most is relevant for narrative-style games;
b. Is misrepresented in her video.

I am all too keen to know why you think that we should engage with media, too, but below you seem not to be interested in telling us more.

I'm aware those reasons have been challenged elsewhere in this thread but I don't really feel like arguing about them right now: maybe later.

Looking forward to your contribution, snarkyness or not.

[Udderdude]

Welp, any sympathy I had for her being trolled just went out the window.

http://thealmightyatheist.blogspot.co.u ... randy.html

[trap15]

Hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Bananamatic]

here comes another dose of death threats and internet drama

[Skykid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i_RPr9DwMA

So again, Sarkeesian's commentary improves with each successive video. I say that having missed a few in-between, but I felt the last one I mentioned here was a big improvement.

CORRECTION: Double checked that. I thought Part 2 was a big improvement, seems I thought Part 3 was a let down. Can't remember the details now.

The most recent, linked above, I basically agree with 100%. The only criticism I did have would have been that this kind of material can't be utterly and entirely off limits full stop - but she even clarified that point by expressing the exact same thing during the wrap-up.

My biggest issue now is really why she didn't start by looking at this material initially? Her original video, so hated by the internet and the one that caused her so much flak, was indeed poor. Back then I asked why she'd chosen to focus the argument on retro gaming when it was far better suited to the recent generations where misogyny and violence toward women is par for the course. I genuinely believe if she'd skipped out Mario and Double Dragon and headed straight for the more relevant and damaging material she would have saved herself a lot of grief.

Now she's here she has a real voice on the subject. The writing has improved (I noticed an accomplice in the credits) and there's absolutely no debating the subject matter. Everything she criticises is accurate: the objectification of women in current gen games is chronic, unecessary, and breeds an image of normalcy amongst its target audience.

I'd recommend this one.

[Lord Satori]

Oh god, not another one. How many debate threads are we going to have active at once?

[Skykid]

Oh god, not another one. How many debate threads are we going to have active at once?

As many as we like?

Weird (pointless) post Satori kun.

[system11]

Now she's here she has a real voice on the subject. The writing has improved (I noticed an accomplice in the credits) and there's absolutely no debating the subject matter. Everything she criticises is accurate: the objectification of women in current gen games is chronic, unecessary, and breeds an image of normalcy amongst its target audience.

What if I don't care, and like eyecandy? Games are supposed to be escapism, fantasy.

[BIL]

HERE COMES A NEW CHALLENGER

The creator of "DEPRESSION QUEST" is embroiled in a sex scandal with "games journalists" apparently.

edit: PART II

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

You didn't link her nudes

[BIL]

I'm scared of being disappeared by reddit gestapo :[

TLDW for above video

[Mischief Maker]

HERE COMES A NEW CHALLENGER

The creator of "DEPRESSION QUEST" is embroiled in a sex scandal with "games journalists" apparently.

Did the developer of "Papers, Please" sell sex for positive press? Because that was an aggressively terrible game propped up by an army of games journalists. Actually working in customs and getting paid $10 an hour would be more enjoyable than that game.

[Skykid]

Now she's here she has a real voice on the subject. The writing has improved (I noticed an accomplice in the credits) and there's absolutely no debating the subject matter. Everything she criticises is accurate: the objectification of women in current gen games is chronic, unecessary, and breeds an image of normalcy amongst its target audience.

What if I don't care, and like eyecandy? Games are supposed to be escapism, fantasy.

...I think just watch the video.

I mean I know what you're saying, but watch video and try saying that again. It's embarrassing.

[evil_ash_xero]

I really like the Internet Aristocrat. I do not agree with everything he says, and he makes some things seem way bigger than they are...

However, is that not what SJW are doing with games now? I mean, if seeing Mario saving Peach as sexist is accepted by a lot of people...I think IA is totally fine as the counterbalance.

And he seems to be popular, and seems genuinely angry about it. Also, lots of people are angry about the Kotakus and whatnot of the world, but are banned from sites(NeoGAF, I'm looking at you...and I'm still bitter about being banned, yes), and are just supressed by the hive mind mentality that is going on right now.

This whole Zoe Quinn thing is quite nuts, because of all the censoring. I don't think it's really a big deal, but all the cloak and dagger shit going on, all the way to 4 freaking Chan, is something to think about.

The SJW really don't like freedom of speech much, do they?

In the second IA video, there sound clip of David Jaffe chewing out a guy at Kotaku. And listening to it, I feel like those would be my reactions. If I was allowed to post them on websites, that is. My favorite bit is where the journalist says that Jaffe alluding(which he didn't) that the only way to get sex from women is by doing them favors is misogynistic. When Jaffe explains to this moron that misogyny is about distrust and hatred of women, the journalist says "don't you think that could trace back to that?". Jaffe's reaction is my favorite part. "Are you a fucking therapist?".

Link: https://soundcloud.com/ben-kuchera/jaffe-confrontation

You didn't link her nudes

They're linked in the comments of the IA video. You're not missing anything.

[evil_ash_xero]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i_RPr9DwMA

So again, Sarkeesian's commentary improves with each successive video. I say that having missed a few in-between, but I felt the last one I mentioned here was a big improvement.

CORRECTION: Double checked that. I thought Part 2 was a big improvement, seems I thought Part 3 was a let down. Can't remember the details now.

The most recent, linked above, I basically agree with 100%. The only criticism I did have would have been that this kind of material can't be utterly and entirely off limits full stop - but she even clarified that point by expressing the exact same thing during the wrap-up.

My biggest issue now is really why she didn't start by looking at this material initially? Her original video, so hated by the internet and the one that caused her so much flak, was indeed poor. Back then I asked why she'd chosen to focus the argument on retro gaming when it was far better suited to the recent generations where misogyny and violence toward women is par for the course. I genuinely believe if she'd skipped out Mario and Double Dragon and headed straight for the more relevant and damaging material she would have saved herself a lot of grief.

Now she's here she has a real voice on the subject. The writing has improved (I noticed an accomplice in the credits) and there's absolutely no debating the subject matter. Everything she criticises is accurate: the objectification of women in current gen games is chronic, unecessary, and breeds an image of normalcy amongst its target audience.

I'd recommend this one.

You're right. Modern games do have tons of misogynistic shit in them. And she did fuck up majorly with her first vid.
But I'm not going to watch anything this woman puts up.

She's not a gamer. She's someone from outside, who just wants to poke her nose in, and tell us we all suck and hate women. While making money at it.

There's a better way to do it, and there's better people to do it.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

There's a better way to do it, and there's better people to do it.

This. Sure, her videos might not be entirely shit if she's learned anything, but she has a proven track record of getting facts wrong in games or just plain making shit up instead of doing actual research. Remember the Bayonetta video where she claimed Bayonetta was a single mother? Or the Hitman critique where she claimed you are rewarded for beating up strippers and stuffing their bodies in boxes? Those were both bullshit; Bayonetta hates the child tag-along and is adamant she's not her mother. In Hitman, you are penalized directly for killing innocents, and as it turns out, it's astonishingly difficult to find any playthrough footage of anyone attacking the strippers (if not impossible). I remember seeing a video that chewed Anita out for that since the only footage of the strippers being attacked was in Anita's own video, meaning she had purposefully done it herself as a way to claim "look at what guys love to do and fetishize, SUCH MISOGYNY", thus making a nice strawmen for herself.

She's dumb and needs to go away.

[BIL]

This whole Zoe Quinn thing is quite nuts, because of all the censoring. I don't think it's really a big deal, but all the cloak and dagger shit going on, all the way to 4 freaking Chan, is something to think about.

The SJW really don't like freedom of speech much, do they?

Only reason it even registered with me. I don't care what these assholes and their ilk get up to, and care only slightly more about gaming post-2005, but the cronyism and suppression is noxious. This is literally the only forum I use and I'd stop coming here in a second if I thought it was part of that autofellating racket.

WTB "Depression Quest" superplay!

[louisg]

I think we need a voice like Anita, except from someone who can actually get facts right. I'm glad it's being discussed because I think the tendency to treat women characters as background can honestly be a bit shocking. The scene with the throat slitting in Gun stands out for me for some reason as kind of a gross use of your female characters. But I think being flip about terrible things actually extends to a lot of general tastelessness in games. And by tastelessness, I'm not referring to sex and violence and gore, but a really sheltered and immature attitude I've seen a lot towards sex and violence and gore. Nazi medical experiments in the Wolfenstein from 2000 stand out for me, too, as turning the holocaust into "SICK, DAWG! DAAAANG THAT'S FUCKED UP". I think there's just a general immaturity in the writing that needs to be improved on.

But yes, every time there's anything like this, there's a lot of confusion between the player CAN do this and the player SHOULD do this. Her narrative comes off an awful lot like the whole "Doom is a murder simulator" crap from the late 90s. Anyway, I don't think very highly of Anita, but I do like that this is being talked about.

[louisg]

Only reason it even registered with me. I don't care what these assholes and their ilk get up to, and care only slightly more about gaming post-2005, but the cronyism and suppression is noxious.

I hear you there. I'm a bit disgusted that so many people get on their high horse, and yet they're all over at PAX giving talks at this very moment (yes, the same PAX involved with dickwolves and the "diversity lounge"). It's obvious that a lot of people care a lot more about their ego than they do about what they claim to care about, and I think that's gross as hell. People say they care about this stuff yet they won't inconvenience themselves to stand up for their own values.

[system11]

Now she's here she has a real voice on the subject. The writing has improved (I noticed an accomplice in the credits) and there's absolutely no debating the subject matter. Everything she criticises is accurate: the objectification of women in current gen games is chronic, unecessary, and breeds an image of normalcy amongst its target audience.

What if I don't care, and like eyecandy? Games are supposed to be escapism, fantasy.

...I think just watch the video.

I mean I know what you're saying, but watch video and try saying that again. It's embarrassing.

I'm not saying the video content is incorrect, I skim-watched it. She is absolutely correct in fact about the use of female 'decoration' in games aimed at male players. It's also obvious, it's like scientists discovering that eating Macdonalds every day is unhealthy. No shit. Really?

And I'm saying I don't care. I don't think anything needs to be done about it. I like it. I enjoy seeing slutty women draped around my game world. I buy it. I am more than happy for media to exist where men are objectified, and for women to buy them if they please.

Right now, this all feels like a groupmind exercise that threatens to undermine one purpose of gaming (and entertainment media in general), which is escapism and enjoyment of things you can't have or do.

If she really cares about attitudes towards women, looking at some modern music would be a really fucking good place to start, where women objectify themselves for reasons I don't admit to understanding. If you agree with the objectification angle in the general sense, then you'll want to stop watching an awful lot of films too. Ones you post opinions about in the movies thread - or perhaps tailor every opinion posted such that it ignores the enjoyment, story or acting and focuses on nothing but the political correctness of female characters. Just like some game reviews are doing now.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I think there's just a general immaturity in the writing that needs to be improved on.

And what would immature audience had to play with then?

[Mischief Maker]

I could tell the problem with the new video from the very start. She shows a scene of a guy telling someone to "grab a whore and have a good time" followed by the evil laugh. The EVIL laugh! And she's presenting it as if the game isn't making this guy out to be a total creep.

It's the same story as the Daniel Tosh rape joke shitstorm, just a different medium. A non-creative presents something completely out of context to create artificial drama and garner attention.

"You guys! You guys! This intentionally edgy ad campaign for an MA game, Hitman, has edgy imagery!"

I imagine if Patrice O'Neal were still alive today and met Sarkeesian, it would go something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjIuPSuYSOY

[Drum]

Games are supposed to be escapism, fantasy.

What a cartoonishly stupid argument.

[Bananamatic]

Games are supposed to be escapism, fantasy.

What a cartoonishly stupid argument.

About as stupid and obvious as "GTA has bad things" is
Sometimes you want to be the bad guy surrounded by lots of half naked women
Can't deny that it's a male power fantasy, but it's perfectly legal and it sells, therefore it exists

[Doctor Butler]

The SJW really don't like freedom of speech much, do they?

I think it's more that game "journalists" are corrupt, they know they're corrupt, and they want to sweep this under the rug.

And what's with this "SJW" bullshit? Is the idea that women are people so alien it warrants a label? lol.

[evil_ash_xero]

The SJW really don't like freedom of speech much, do they?

I think it's more that game "journalists" are corrupt, they know they're corrupt, and they want to sweep this under the rug.

And what's with this "SJW" bullshit? Is the idea that women are people so alien it warrants a label? lol.

I don't really understand what you mean. Social Justice Warrior does not just mean women. Not even close.
Perhaps you didn't know what that stood for?

And yeah, I do think SJWs really don't like freedom of speech much. All that fucking trigger warning and crying on Tumblr is enough to make one puke. They just cannot stand people saying things they don't like.
Just off the top of my head, #CancelCobert comes to mind. But there's quite a few things like that.

But that's another conversation.

[Drum]

Games are supposed to be escapism, fantasy.

What a cartoonishly stupid argument.

About as stupid and obvious as "GTA has bad things" is
Sometimes you want to be the bad guy surrounded by lots of half naked women
Can't deny that it's a male power fantasy, but it's perfectly legal and it sells, therefore it exists

He's not saying that - he's saying games are supposed to be escapist fantasy. It's fucking nonsense. It's not even superficially convincing. The only way you can make it superficially convincing (but still sloppy and weak) is to twist his words into something else, which is what you're doing.

[Skykid]

She's not a gamer. She's someone from outside, who just wants to poke her nose in, and tell us we all suck and hate women. While making money at it.

Yes I agree, but she's a feminist and allowed to be. As a feminist the subject matter in the current video is absolutely relevant to her cause. Like I said, if this was her first video on the subject, rather than one of the last (one hopes) it would have had far more credibility and so would she.

Das all I'm sayin' yo.

About as stupid and obvious as "GTA has bad things" is
Sometimes you want to be the bad guy surrounded by lots of half naked women
Can't deny that it's a male power fantasy, but it's perfectly legal and it sells, therefore it exists

Yeah but watch the video. It's not like it's a one off. I suppose these games are 100% marketed toward men, but jeez, does every single one have to have some chick being punched in the face, maimed, butchered or brutalised as window dressing? :shrugs:

I could tell the problem with the new video from the very start. She shows a scene of a guy telling someone to "grab a whore and have a good time" followed by the evil laugh. The EVIL laugh! And she's presenting it as if the game isn't making this guy out to be a total creep.

She reiterates far too many times that the main point of a woman being abused/victimised is to give the player a sense of justice against an evil character, it's the superfluity of the women that's the issue. So you don't know what you're talking about or anything else by watching the first ten seconds. Go watch the whole thing. It's a catalogue.

And I'm saying I don't care. I don't think anything needs to be done about it. I like it. I enjoy seeing slutty women draped around my game world. I buy it. I am more than happy for media to exist where men are objectified, and for women to buy them if they please.

Yeah, doesn't really go the other way so much. Maybe in Hollister.

Look, I understand. I'm a man. I go to a club and there are chicks walking around with their tits and ass hanging out, I don't turn a blind eye in the name of feminism, I take a picture and strike up a conversation (maybe not in that order).

But the video illustrates its point. Women are background dressing used as tools to create a sense of justice or drama, but constantly victimised or aggressively mutilated in a kind of humorous repeat scenario. It's a bit childish. No, it's very childish. I suppose I'm not objecting to see women in states of undress, cos I ain't wired that way, but I am about wanting to see them intelligently represented in a video game, if only to break the trend.

That video is really absurd, especially to me because I think I've played none of those games (only Red Dead) so had no idea those sequences existed.

[BryanM]

Strikes me rather a lot like looking at a porn and saying "this is pretty messed up, when you think about it."

Which is true of most pornography. Has anyone ever seen daytime television? Overwhelmingly anti-poor, racist, occasionally misandrogynistic in addition to the low level buzz of pervasive misogyny (say, like how soap operas say you have to be a handsome rich doctor or crime lord to be worth anything at all). Just looking at anything other than PBS during that time feels like being brainwashed in a Clockwork Orange type setup. This is buttmazingly obvious right, I'm not the only one that's figured that out yet, non?

It's not that I'm against the message that people suck and willfully propagate problematic ugly cultural memes, and need to try a little harder - I'd be the last person on Earth to say that. It's just that these videos aren't entertaining to watch. It's great that she's got people finally thinking and talking about it at least.

[Skykid]

Strikes me rather a lot like looking at a porn and saying "this is pretty messed up, when you think about it."

Sure but porn has a completely different function. It's entertainment of the sperm liberating kind. You don't go to the cinema and beat one out every time a blonde bounces across the screen.

I think the general theme here is that gaming as a form of entertainment concurrent to TV and movies can do at least as well as TV and movies when representing women, despite all their existing failures. We're all aware of general exploitation in the form of Piranha 3D's, and as Sarkeesian sensibly footnoted: sexual imagery is never going to be entirely off limits and nor should it be.

It's just that current gaming seems to have little scope for representing women unless it's in fetishised form, whether plonking about in garter stockings and stilettos or being punched out, stabbed in the face, raped, decapitated, shot through the back of the head, dismembered, or mangled in the rungs of a wheel.

But then current gen is really tired anyway, all the themes are regurgitated infinitely. Genuinely interesting departures are few and far between.

I should also footnote and reiterate I'm not defending Sarkeesian's entire tirade. The initial videos were pointless and ill informed. This one just happens to be stable and correct, and as a feminist she's perfectly within her rights to examine these recurring themes.