XRGB-mini Framemeister

[austin532]

1. In your opinion, is it worth the time and money to get RGB to display 480p?

2. How does RGB 480p look compared to Component 480p? Huge difference or minor?

3. Is it also worth it to force PS2 games in 480p? What's the best way of doing so?

[Fudoh]

You mean on the input side ? The Mini handles 480p through RGB better than through component. Also (on the source side) some systems display less noise in the signal when using RGB instead of component (PS2 for example).

[keropi]

The external oscillator mod fixes the SGB's clock so it's the same speed as a real GB. Nintendo cheaped out and they decided to use a division of the SNES's clock. It was approximately the same speed but it did cause some sound issues since there was a small difference. They fixed that in their SGB2 design that uses it's own oscillator at the correct speed.

but isn't that just taking the SGB's sync problems to a "GB Player" level ? I mean the problem with a GB Player (w/ Cube) setup is that the GB hardware is running at original speed, but then you get a framerate conversion since the output get's synced to the Cube's video chip output.

No idea, haven't tried it on the framemeister at all. I used it with a supercic 1CHIP snes that outputs a ntsc signal and it was OK using a crt as far as I could tell.
On the GC side I have a GBP as well, only tested it a little with a crt and some GBA games, didn't pay much attention... I once tried with a component cable @480p but I can't remember how it was...
I'll check both with the mini and see what I get... I do see the PAL 50hz GC being a problem , will see what options SWISS offers since I have modded my GC with a wii fussion modchip and I currently use the US GBP disc to start the gameboy stuff...

[blizzz]

The external oscillator mod fixes the SGB's clock so it's the same speed as a real GB. Nintendo cheaped out and they decided to use a division of the SNES's clock. It was approximately the same speed but it did cause some sound issues since there was a small difference. They fixed that in their SGB2 design that uses it's own oscillator at the correct speed.

but isn't that just taking the SGB's sync problems to a "GB Player" level ? I mean the problem with a GB Player (w/ Cube) setup is that the GB hardware is running at original speed, but then you get a framerate conversion since the output get's synced to the Cube's video chip output.

Yes, you get a visible stutter on the SGB2.

[Sixfortyfive]

So is there no way to completely resolve the timing issues on any of the official Game Boy adapters? It's either play at the GB's speed and deal with stutter, or play at the console's speed and have the games run either too fast or too slow?

[blizzz]

Maybe it would be possible to mod the SNES frequency to match the Game Boy. But I don't know if that would also change the speed of the SGB2.

[eightbitminiboss]

@eightbitminiboss

If you made the cut like shown in TμΕΕ's schematic then it's the same as lifting the 73+74 pins, you isolate the chip from the clock signal coming from the SNES and you feed it from the external oscillator we use.
But it should work just fine with lifted pads since it's exactly the same... strange that yours didn't work, I've modded 3 SGBs so far and I just lift the pins since it's easier for me , they just work...


@fudoh

The external oscillator mod fixes the SGB's clock so it's the same speed as a real GB. Nintendo cheaped out and they decided to use a division of the SNES's clock. It was approximately the same speed but it did cause some sound issues since there was a small difference. They fixed that in their SGB2 design that uses it's own oscillator at the correct speed.

@Pasky

IIRC there are 3x screws on the mini, and you need to open it from the right side (IIRC again) since there are some clips on the left side. You'll see it when all screws are out, 2 of them are under the feet I believe.

Think you go the wrong person. I didn't use the mod, I have a SGB2.

Maybe it would be possible to mod the SNES frequency to match the Game Boy. But I don't know if that would also change the speed of the SGB2.

No, because as mentioned before the SGB2 has its own crystal oscillator to run at the correct frequency.

[keropi]

^ yep, sorry for that, my comment was meant for Konsolkongen , got confused with the quotes
anyone knows what the framemeister should report as HZ in order to get fluid GB action? 60.00?

[austin532]

You mean on the input side ? The Mini handles 480p through RGB better than through component. Also (on the source side) some systems display less noise in the signal when using RGB instead of component (PS2 for example).

Yes, the PS2 is pretty much the only system I would use it on. Unless RGB can output 720 and 1080 as well? Then I would use it for the original XBOX as well. I know that US Gamecubes can't output RGB natively and require a mod work around.

So my next question is where the heck do I start and what exactly do I need to output RGB 480p to a HDTV? The more info the better.

[Ed Oscuro]

Don't know what resolutions are supported, but they all should be - there's SCART cables for the Xbox. Dunno the price in comparison to component cables. Reportedly they work fine with US Xboxes - though I didn't read what resolutions were tested.

[arovane]

Does anyone know if swapping the Dreamcast internal PSU from a US 110v to a Euro 220v will damage the Dreamcast, or the Hanzo / Mini?
This is to avoid using those big power supply converters... Found this video, but looks fishy to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoT_wJNPXR4

Good idea? Bad idea?

[blizzz]

anyone knows what the framemeister should report as HZ in order to get fluid GB action? 60.00?

262144 / 4389 ~= 59.72750056960583 Hz [source]

[keropi]

Allright did some tests with SNES and GC using their respective GB players.

Some notes:
* The SNES GBP has the crystal mod so it's the same speed as a real gameboy.
* The SNES I use is a 1-CHIP model that I installed a SuperCIC and the 50/60hz switch that ikari_01 developed. In 60hz mode it outputs a real NTSC signal AFAIK, it basically has 2 crystals onboard: the stock PAL speed and a NTSC speed one.
* On the GC side of things, I am using a PAL GC with component and RGB outputs, it is modded with a wiikey fussion and it loads the NTSC-U ISO for the GameBoy Player, with component it auto-activated Progressive output and with RGB it displayed at 60hz.

a. SNES in NTSC mode
personal opinion: butter smooth scrolling , only hiccups that are present on a real gameboy as well




b. SNES in PAL mode
didn't bother to screenshot it, it was horrible.


c. GC/component 480p
personal opinion: butter smooth scrolling , only hickups that are present on a real gameboy as well
GBA castlevania was the same for me as well






d. GC/RGB 480i
personal opinion: butter smooth scrolling , only hiccups that are present on a real gameboy as well
forgot to photograph GBA but it was the same smooth as component for me




So it seems to me that as long as you are running the host machine at 60hz there is no real problem.
I did prefer the component 480p output over the RGB one on the GC.
Things might not be perfect but I believe they are 98% perfect. According to blizzz's info on hz, the GC is closer to the real thing, personally I didn't notice any difference.
Don't forget that the real GameBoy had some framerate issues as well, not everything was butter smooth and some small hiccups were concealed because of it's lcd screen.

[CkRtech]

Does anyone know if swapping the Dreamcast internal PSU from a US 110v to a Euro 220v will damage the Dreamcast, or the Hanzo / Mini?
This is to avoid using those big power supply converters... Found this video, but looks fishy to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoT_wJNPXR4

Good idea? Bad idea?

I follow RetroGameTech on YouTube. He seems like a pretty cool guy, and his videos are nice and descriptive.

Since it is just a wire from the wall, the inside of the Dreamcast is responsible for doing whatever conversions are necessary (AC to DC power). He is basically replacing the board that does that with one of the desired region's mains.

EDIT: ...and I will now scroll up and check out keropi's epic post.

[blizzz]

a. SNES in NTSC mode
butter smooth scrolling , only hickups that are present on a real gameboy as well

I've compared Super Mario Land (Japanese release) on a Super Famicom with original Super Game Boy 2 on a CRT to the GBA SP. There's definitely some stutter visible on the CRT while the GBA SP looks smooth.

[Konsolkongen]

Allright did some tests with SNES and GC using their respective GB players.

Some notes:
* The SNES GBP has the crystal mod so it's the same speed as a real gameboy.
* The SNES I use is a 1-CHIP model that I installed a SuperCIC and the 50/60hz switch that ikari_01 developed. In 60hz mode it outputs a real NTSC signal AFAIK, it basically has 2 crystals onboard: the stock PAL speed and a NTSC speed one.
* On the GC side of things, I am using a PAL GC with component and RGB outputs, it is modded with a wiikey fussion and it loads the NTSC-U ISO for the GameBoy Player, with component it auto-activated Progressive output and with RGB it displayed at 60hz.

We have pretty similar setups. What region is your Super Gameboy?

a. SNES in NTSC mode
butter smooth scrolling , only hickups that are present on a real gameboy as well

That's not the case here. I tested with Tiny Toon Adventures. There's a part during the intro where there's a moving filmstrip. It moves perfectly smooth all the time on a GBA SP, but on the Super Gameboy it stutters about once a second or so. Before the mod it was about three times as bad.

c. GC/component 480p
butter smooth scrolling , only hickups that are present on a real gameboy as well
GBA castlevania was butter smooth

Since we have identical setups here. I can say that it's not the case. Sorry. I too use a PAL GameCube with a PAL GB Player add-on, a NTSC disc and component cables for 480p. In 60Hz there's pretty noticeable stuttering. If you have the game, take a look at the moving text in the character select-screen in Sonic Advance.

If the games are running at their correct speeds, then framerate-conversion (59.7 > roughly 60Hz) is inevitable, thus adding stutter. The only way to prevent this is to speed up the games ever so slightly so they match the 59.94Hz in the GameCube's case

[Fudoh]

c. GC/component 480p
butter smooth scrolling , only hickups that are present on a real gameboy as well
GBA castlevania was butter smooth

I have to call bullshit on this. GBA games running on the GBPlayer/Cube combo have a permanent stutter, that's definitely not present on the real GBA hardware. This is caused by the GBP hardware running with a "native GBA clock" which is different from the NTSC clock the Cube is using.

I haven't used a PAL Cube though, but I highly doubt that this would be the reason.

I can pretty much see the stutter on all games, but my benchmark is usually Gradius Advance, where it's extremely noticable due to the smooth constant scrolling.

[Konsolkongen]

Keropi >

Do you have any kind of motion interpolation enabled on your TV? The increased lag should give it away, but that could be a reason why you are not seeing the stuttering. If in doubt set your TV to Game Mode

[keropi]

OK , I did some quick testing, with the games I own. This was my opinion with my set of eyes: SM1 on GB that I have played to the death on a real GB and GBA/Castlevania 2in1. You call BS on my tests, fine.
I did use terms as "it seems to me" - this wasn't a test to take as an axiom and neither I claimed it to be one, so all the "bs calling" rage is unjustified. I wrote my personal setups in detail, my opinion and I also provided shots with what the framemeister reports, I didn't try to "cover up" anything or claim that I have some magic machines that are behaving perfect.

I did notice the NTSC PS1@PS2 hiccups but I didn't notice anything as bad with the GB players , I stand by my opinion whether some people name it BS or not.

[Fudoh]

don't take it too serious - wasn't meant offensive in any way.

But it's a bit like those monitor reviews, in which the tester claims that no lag was perceivable while all other reviews show a 2-frame lag measured with all kinds of test equipment.

If you don't see the hiccups in the scrolling on GBA titles, good for you. Makes it easier to enjoy it.

[keropi]

@Konsolkongen

I use a HP w2207h 1680x1050 pc monitor with HDMI input, there are no exotic options on that... it is either a 5 or 8ms panel
My GBP is a PAL one btw, I don't think it matters on a supercic setup

@fudoh

OK, all that negativity got me
I did made a video with Castlevania, sadly it's a 1080p/30fps one (the max I can record) , perhaps it shows something... or not, could be a waste of time as well.

https://www.mediafire.com/?4z5qoypfrzqtg54

I did play the game for some time now, I do get a micro-shutter but it's only every 10-15secs or so...
btw my theory that the screens of all GBs hide small shutters, is there a possibility it really happens? since they are slow screens and have some blurring?

[blizzz]

I did play the game for some time now, I do get a micro-shutter but it's only every 10-15secs or so...

That's because the console has to repeat a frame as it runs faster than the GB / GBA. This is exactly the problem.

btw my theory that the screens of all GBs hide small shutters, is there a possibility it really happens? since they are slow screens and have some blurring?

The GB screen will hide small problems, but in this case it's the mismatch of GB and console framerate.

[keropi]

huh... I see , I thought the problem was more serious like a constant jerky motion rather than that hiccup every 10-15secs...
at any rate it beats playing on the handhelds for me, my eyes are not what they used to be

[Fudoh]

On the Cube/GBP combo you get a redundant frame about every other second. Shows in your video as well.

[keropi]

^ I honestly don't see that, just the hiccup...

[Legion]

My Framemeister just arrived today. I wanted to test it out with my Elgato. Hooked it up to my NES via composite as I don't have the right cables for RGB yet. Something strange is happening. In the opening cinematic of Castlevania III as the text scrolls up the graphics and text get mangled at the top of the frame. You can see it in this video at about 7 seconds in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih0bG-5 ... e=youtu.be If I connect the NES directly to the TV this isn't visible.

This happens on whatever firmware it shipped with and still happens after upgrading to 1.11. I'm capturing at 720p 60fps. NES -> Framemeister -> Elgato -> Laptop. Is there a setting on the Framemeister that I need to change?

[blizzz]

Could be just a glitch in the overscan area and your TV crops it out if you connect the NES directly.

[Legion]

Is this happening because it's composite input? Or will this happen with RGB sources as well?

[Ed Oscuro]

Compare it with an emulator sometime. I think you're looking at some of the main RAM being rendered - normally that's masked by the TV, and it displays as garbage if you use underscan settings to reveal it.

[Legion]

I guess I never noticed it when watching darcagn's Castlevania III video, but now that I looked for it, it's there. I suppose it's the same situation with the Genesis and the colored dots at the bottom. But what I'd like to know is, is there a setting to fix this on the XRGB-mini without sacrificing fidelity or do I fix it in After Effects?