XRGB-mini Framemeister

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Elrinth
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Elrinth »

For normal gaming this really isn't a problem, unless you wanna game under better circumstances and with better precision.
But when you want to use frame dependent peripherals such as OLD 3D famicom glasses or the Zapper, then this becomes an issue. Better bring out your old fat analog tv as there really isn't any better solution.

Last thing I read about bringing down the latency was that nvidia was going to add some additional hardware into monitors which would talk to the graphics card in your computer bringing down the latency to almost 0 (if not 0). Read about it here: http://www.geforce.com/hardware/technol ... technology

As for with HDTVs, I have no clue. It doesn't seem to be a priority at all. But with monitors the new IPS monitors are down to 9ms or so.
LG claims for example this IPS monitor has 5ms: http://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-27EA33V-led-monitor
While at displaylag (http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/) they've measured it to 9ms in average.

@Fudoh Yes it does register that as you claim. However for actual gaming this won't work so great as in a few games there are multiple targets. But for Duck Hunt I guess this cheat would work perfectly, hahaha :)

Also another note, even if you somehow modify the zapper to register with delay, the game itself (Duck Hunt) would expect the signal to come at that certain frame it was shown. So the only solution would be to reprogram the game itself :) But that kinda feels pointless :D
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blizzz
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by blizzz »

Elrinth wrote:LG claims for example this IPS monitor has 5ms: http://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-27EA33V-led-monitor
That is the grey-to-grey time. Only a small part of the display lag. It's basically the time a pixel takes to shift color until it is perceivable. It's not the full time to reach the target color and it doesn't include any processing.

G-Sync / adaptive sync will lower the input lag because you don't need any form of vsync. It doesn't eliminate processing and pixel transition times. It only removes the buffering on PC side. It could be a huge benefit for (emulated) retro games that run at non-standard refresh rates though. But you need a display with DisplayPort that supports the tech and a GPU that supports it. Maybe in the XRGB-5...

Btw, I am sensitive to input lag because I'm used to CRT gaming. I don't have any lag problems with the Framemeister on my TV. Unless the game needs a sub 1-frame delay (for light guns etc) it's not an issue.
Elrinth
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Elrinth »

Thanks for shining more info on the g-sync.
I totally agree, I have no problem with the current latency of the framemeister either. But the fact that it can get better is both awesome and something I want right now! :D

Is there a new XRGB in the works? I'm guessing the market for the current upscaler isn't gianormous so it would be pretty unexpected if they had a newer version in the works. Especielly when the current one is working so great.
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pyrotek85
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by pyrotek85 »

I think someone posted that there is usually 5-6 years in between models, so maybe in 2015/2016? I'm quite happy with mine, though I'd buy a new model to help support them.
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geekmiki
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by geekmiki »

Hi,

I'm running into problems again to have my DC working with the Framemeister...
Here's the setup:
DC->VGA cable->Kenzei->SCART cable->Euro SCART to Framemeister adapter->Framemeister

-The VGA cable is a custom made cable with DC to VGA
-The Kenzei is powered with a power adapter
-The Euro SCART to Framemeister adapter is the one from RetroGamingCables without a sync stripper (LM1881=

The result is always the same: no picture.

I've tested the DC directly with VGA into the TV and its working, so we can discard that.

Am I missing a setting on the Framemeister, Kenzei or anything else?

Thanks in advance!
DEL 707
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by DEL 707 »

Fudoh wrote:
As for improvements, I thought the framemeister was supposed to make things less "jaggy".
not really. The Mini will improve on the deinterlacing (to 240p effects remain in place, while your TV "flatens" them out), it will also keep the pixels more pronounced while upscaling, so I don't see how the results would become less "jaggy". I know your TV and it does a pretty mediocre job on handling 240p signals. The difference between that and the Mini is really as good (and big) as it gets.

Unfortunately the low resolution of your TV won't allow you to use proper scanlines from the Mini. For best results in 4:3 you might want to go with a 1024x768 output from the Mini and a 4:3 setting on your TV.
Sadly I know little about settings or what they all mean, scanlines etc.
I was showing off my new Neo Geo on a forum and was informed that the images were a crime against nature, and to either get a CRT or invest in a Framemeister. Not having room for a CRT, I threw money at the problem, which I'm kind of regretting at the moment, in an already expensive hobby.

Here's a picture, using RGB straight from the MVS to the TV

Image

Here's the image if I plug it into the Framemeister

Image

And here it is if I try those settings, DVI output at 1024x768

Image

The DVI looks no different to me, other then a paler picture.
Not sure what I'm doing wrong or if I have unrealistic expectations.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Konsolkongen »

DEL 707 wrote: The DVI looks no different to me, other then a paler picture.
Not sure what I'm doing wrong or if I have unrealistic expectations.
Really? There's huge difference between your HDMI and DVi screenshot. The HDMI one looks like ass, where the DVI looks pretty damn good to me.

To achieve a similar result on your HDMI input you need to lower the sharpness control on the TV, because the ringing in your picture looks horrible. Google "ringing" to see what it is, then lower the sharpness until it disappears. On most TVs the optimal setting is 0, but there are some where you have to set it in the middle.

You should also set your TV to Game Mode if you haven't already.

Then try the settings I have listed in the link in my signature, and add scanlines. Hopefully you'll get a result you'll be happy with :)
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

There's huge difference between your HDMI and DVi screenshot. The HDMI one looks like ass, where the DVI looks pretty damn good to me.
THIS exactly.

What you're currently using is just upscaling. What you got the Framemeister recommended for, was it's scanline emulation (hence the CRT comparison). You can enable the scanlines by either pressing the C button or going into "Meister" mode. This requires you to use either 480p or 720p output from the Mini and your TV probably won't handle scanlined images very well.
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austin532
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by austin532 »

So I'm thinking about buying a PS1/PS2 RGB cable but was wondering which cable you think would be best? retro_consoles_accessories sells them with Sync on Luma which I believe is currently the best method to reduce the dithering/checkerboard effect as seen on PS1 games as well as interference. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm still new to the RGB world. :mrgreen:

Also, do I still need a Sync Stripper or can I plug these directly in the RGB adapter that came with the Mini?
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... start=9600
DEL 707
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by DEL 707 »

Konsolkongen wrote:
DEL 707 wrote: The DVI looks no different to me, other then a paler picture.
Not sure what I'm doing wrong or if I have unrealistic expectations.
Really? There's huge difference between your HDMI and DVi screenshot. The HDMI one looks like ass, where the DVI looks pretty damn good to me.

To achieve a similar result on your HDMI input you need to lower the sharpness control on the TV, because the ringing in your picture looks horrible. Google "ringing" to see what it is, then lower the sharpness until it disappears. On most TVs the optimal setting is 0, but there are some where you have to set it in the middle.

You should also set your TV to Game Mode if you haven't already.

Then try the settings I have listed in the link in my signature, and add scanlines. Hopefully you'll get a result you'll be happy with :)
I have a problem that when the Framemeister is in DVI output, my TV won't allow me to alter the sharpness etc. I've tried it in HDMI and just connecting the console straight to the TV, my sharpness is 15, I've reduced it to 0 and I'm alot happier with the image, I guess my main complaint was the "ringing"

I'm not sure I have good enough eyes to appreciate the Framemeister.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

but one day you'll upgrade to a larger TV and then you'll really appreciate the Mini.
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marqs
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by marqs »

blizzz wrote:
Elrinth wrote:LG claims for example this IPS monitor has 5ms: http://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-27EA33V-led-monitor
That is the grey-to-grey time. Only a small part of the display lag. It's basically the time a pixel takes to shift color until it is perceivable. It's not the full time to reach the target color and it doesn't include any processing.

G-Sync / adaptive sync will lower the input lag because you don't need any form of vsync. It doesn't eliminate processing and pixel transition times. It only removes the buffering on PC side. It could be a huge benefit for (emulated) retro games that run at non-standard refresh rates though. But you need a display with DisplayPort that supports the tech and a GPU that supports it. Maybe in the XRGB-5...

Btw, I am sensitive to input lag because I'm used to CRT gaming. I don't have any lag problems with the Framemeister on my TV. Unless the game needs a sub 1-frame delay (for light guns etc) it's not an issue.
G-Sync/FreeSync would greatly improve compatibility with retro games, but the premise of source driving the display directly with constantly variable refresh rate (e.g. PC games with vsync disabled) has one big issue: it assumes high pixel-persistence from the display (otherwise refresh rate would modulate brightness). As most of us probably know, high persistence equals high motion blur.
airs
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by airs »

austin532 wrote:So I'm thinking about buying a PS1/PS2 RGB cable but was wondering which cable you think would be best? retro_consoles_accessories sells them with Sync on Luma which I believe is currently the best method to reduce the dithering/checkerboard effect as seen on PS1 games as well as interference. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm still new to the RGB world. :mrgreen:

Also, do I still need a Sync Stripper or can I plug these directly in the RGB adapter that came with the Mini?
I have the Sync on Luma cable and it works well. No stripper needed.
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RGB32E
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by RGB32E »

marqs wrote:G-Sync/FreeSync would greatly improve compatibility with retro games, but the premise of source driving the display directly with constantly variable refresh rate (e.g. PC games with vsync disabled) has one big issue: it assumes high pixel-persistence from the display (otherwise refresh rate would modulate brightness). As most of us probably know, high persistence equals high motion blur.
Which is why a constant 60+fps v-synced signal is best. Playing PC games at 120fps on a 120Hz monitor is really nice!
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austin532
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by austin532 »

airs wrote:
austin532 wrote:So I'm thinking about buying a PS1/PS2 RGB cable but was wondering which cable you think would be best? retro_consoles_accessories sells them with Sync on Luma which I believe is currently the best method to reduce the dithering/checkerboard effect as seen on PS1 games as well as interference. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm still new to the RGB world. :mrgreen:

Also, do I still need a Sync Stripper or can I plug these directly in the RGB adapter that came with the Mini?
I have the Sync on Luma cable and it works well. No stripper needed.
Good to hear. So I should be all set then. Just plug these cables into the RGB adapter and that's it?
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... start=9600
airs
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by airs »

austin532 wrote:
airs wrote:
austin532 wrote:So I'm thinking about buying a PS1/PS2 RGB cable but was wondering which cable you think would be best? retro_consoles_accessories sells them with Sync on Luma which I believe is currently the best method to reduce the dithering/checkerboard effect as seen on PS1 games as well as interference. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm still new to the RGB world. :mrgreen:

Also, do I still need a Sync Stripper or can I plug these directly in the RGB adapter that came with the Mini?
I have the Sync on Luma cable and it works well. No stripper needed.
Good to hear. So I should be all set then. Just plug these cables into the RGB adapter and that's it?
You'll need a SCART to xrgb mini din8. The one that comes with the mini is JP21, not SCART.
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austin532
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by austin532 »

airs wrote:
You'll need a SCART to xrgb mini din8. The one that comes with the mini is JP21, not SCART.
Ok, now I'm confused. If the cables coming from the Playstation are Japan 21 pin why would I need a Euro SCART to XRGB Mini 8 pin? Obviously I know Japan cables will only work with a Japan adapter and Euro cables will only work with a Euro adapter. What am I doing wrong? Am I supposed to use SCART RGB instead of Japan 21 pin RGB and if so why? I am using a US system by the way.

Sorry for being such a newbie but any advice would greatly help.
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... start=9600
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CkRtech
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by CkRtech »

hey austin532,

You are good. If the cable you picked up is JP21, just use the adapter that was included with the xrgb.
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austin532
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by austin532 »

CkRtech wrote:hey austin532,

You are good. If the cable you picked up is JP21, just use the adapter that was included with the xrgb.
Glad to hear. :D That's what I thought. Is using SCART RGB even possible on a US system and if so are there any advantages and disadvantages between using SCART RGB vs. JP21 RGB? I assume using Japan 21 pin RGB is better and easier to work with because both Japan and US are both NTSC or does that have nothing to do with it?
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... start=9600
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pyrotek85
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by pyrotek85 »

austin532 wrote:
CkRtech wrote:hey austin532,

You are good. If the cable you picked up is JP21, just use the adapter that was included with the xrgb.
Glad to hear. :D That's what I thought. Is using SCART RGB even possible on a US system and if so are there any advantages and disadvantages between using SCART RGB vs. JP21 RGB? I assume using Japan 21 pin RGB is better and easier to work with because both Japan and US are both NTSC or does that have nothing to do with it?
I'm pretty sure the only difference is how the pins are arranged, it's the same signal AFAIK.
airs
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by airs »

It depends on the cable you buy from retro console accessories - if it is wired as SCART, you'll need a SCART to XRGB Mini cable. If its wired JP21, you can use the stock XRGB Mini cable.
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austin532
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by austin532 »

Right. I figured that was the case. Since I'm using a US system is there any reason why I should consider using RGB SCART or is JP 21 pin RGB the best and only way to go for NTSC systems?

The reason I ask this strange question is that it seems like RGB SCART is a more popular choice.
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... start=9600
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darcagn
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by darcagn »

They are exactly the same signal and connector, just different pinouts.

RGB SCART is a more popular choice because JP21 was only used in Japan and is obscure in the West, whereas SCART was much more widely used. It's difficult to find JP21 cables for some consoles.
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austin532
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by austin532 »

Ahhh, that explains why SCART is more popular. TV's throughout all of Europe have SCART inputs where 21 Pin was strictly used in Japan. Thanks for clearing that up. So I guess it's comes down to a matter of preference then?
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... start=9600
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Ed Oscuro »

RGB32E wrote:
marqs wrote:G-Sync/FreeSync would greatly improve compatibility with retro games, but the premise of source driving the display directly with constantly variable refresh rate (e.g. PC games with vsync disabled) has one big issue: it assumes high pixel-persistence from the display (otherwise refresh rate would modulate brightness). As most of us probably know, high persistence equals high motion blur.
Which is why a constant 60+fps v-synced signal is best. Playing PC games at 120fps on a 120Hz monitor is really nice!
marqs: As far as I can tell, the fix is in:
http://www.blurbusters.com/confirmed-nv ... t-upgrade/
- and of course other developments on low persistence. Might not be ready for prime time for a while, but the best way to look at this, I think, is to say that the technologies are slowly developing that will allow a good solution for retrogaming.

Fascinating stuff - the contribution of pixel state transition / persistence to motion blur is something I hadn't read about anywhere before, and suddenly I have found quite a wealth of information.

@ RGB32E: From what I understand, having a constant rate without fluctuation is important. It's not the specific FPS rate that matters.

Almost any source we're interested in won't be harmfully impacted by the strobe mode.

If we're talking about modern gaming, faster panels (120Hz for example) and faster strobe modes will beat the pants off your typical 60Hz panel with 16.666ms frames (and motion blur to match).

Oh, and some other tidbit from the Blur Busters forum:
I'm mighty curious to know if Sony will be using a rolling-scan on this 30" OLED like Sony already does with their PVM/BVM series. That would lower persistence significantly.
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blizzz
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by blizzz »

The question is if we can get backlight strobing in variable refresh rate mode on G-Sync. The perfect case for video games would be to double the effective framerate and use backlight strobing. But that is such a niche case that I don't think it will happen.

The Ufo tests on that site are a great way to see the advantages of 120/144Hz. If you have a monitor that supports LightBoost you should check it out. It would also end every "the human eye cannot see more than [random number] fps" "debate".
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

I'm mighty curious to know if Sony will be using a rolling-scan on this 30" OLED like Sony already does with their PVM/BVM series. That would lower persistence significantly.
I think they will, since it's still a production monitor. None of the larger OLED TVs use it though. That's why Samsung and LG's OLEDs hardly have any better motion handling than your average LCD these days.
12345
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by 12345 »

I'm sure that's a question somebody already has come up with but how are chances Micomsoft is going to fix the 1080p scanline bug in a future firmware update? What difference would it make for 240p content?
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Konsolkongen »

12345 wrote:I'm sure that's a question somebody already has come up with but how are chances Micomsoft is going to fix the 1080p scanline bug in a future firmware update? What difference would it make for 240p content?
The chances are next to none. They would have fixed it years ago if they could.

If your TV does good 720p upscaling then it won't make much of a difference. But if your TV's upscaling sucks then it's very unfortunate that it probably won't be fixed.

I hope Micomsoft will prove me wrong. New features are always nice :)
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austin532
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by austin532 »

Hopefully sooner than later if it's even possible to fix. 240p already looks great in 720p so I can imagine how nice it would look in 1080p with proper scanlines.

My gut instinct tells me no though as they can't be divided evenly into 1920 x 1080.
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... start=9600
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