XRGB-mini Framemeister

[12345]

Thanks for all the helpful replies!
So in general you would recommend buying one of those units or is there a chance for an xrgb 4/5 to be unveiled in the near future for which I should rather wait?

[austin532]

Judging by the past XRGB releases it takes about 5 years for a new XRGB to come out. We probably won't see a new one until 2016 so no need to worry.

[DEL 707]

Small bump, thought I'd ask in this thread instead of making a new thread.

Could use some help, I bought a Framemeister some time ago to use with my Neo Geo AES and MVS.

The system works fine, but I'm not seeing any improvement, using the games systems running through the Framemeister, rather then straight via RGB.
I have no idea on what settings I should be using.

[eightbitminiboss]

Small bump, thought I'd ask in this thread instead of making a new thread.

Could use some help, I bought a Framemeister some time ago to use with my Neo Geo AES and MVS.

The system works fine, but I'm not seeing any improvement, using the games systems running through the Framemeister, rather then straight via RGB.
I have no idea on what settings I should be using.

The wiki is a good jumping off point to set up your Framemeister for your consoles.

[Fudoh]

@DEL 707:
which TV do you use ? And what kind of improvements are you looking for with the Mini ?

[pyrotek85]

Small bump, thought I'd ask in this thread instead of making a new thread.

Could use some help, I bought a Framemeister some time ago to use with my Neo Geo AES and MVS.

The system works fine, but I'm not seeing any improvement, using the games systems running through the Framemeister, rather then straight via RGB.
I have no idea on what settings I should be using.

Forgive me if I"m misreading this, but when you say 'rather then straight via RGB', do you mean to a CRT TV/monitor with a scart input rather than to an LCD with the Framemeister? If so, I don't think the Framemeister is expected to look better than a CRT with RGB inputs, since it's converting an analog signal and then scaling versus using native resolution and no conversion.

[DEL 707]

The wiki is a good jumping off point to set up your Framemeister for your consoles.

I know this is a silly question, but what source type is the AES/MVS?

@DEL 707:
which TV do you use ? And what kind of improvements are you looking for with the Mini ?

It's a LCD TV, though a good few years old now, it's a Sony Bravio KDL-32D3000, here's the Sony spec sheet http://www.sony.co.uk/support/en/conten ... D3000/list
As for improvements, I thought the framemeister was supposed to make things less "jaggy".

[CkRtech]

Don't have a Neo Geo (yet), but I believe the output should be roughly 240p.

Short page on the MVS here: http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Neo_Geo_MVS

What output resolution are you using with the framemeister? Try 720p and then toggle scanlines on/off and see what you think. I run a plasma and tend to go without scanlines, but...personal preference, always.

[Fudoh]

As for improvements, I thought the framemeister was supposed to make things less "jaggy".

not really. The Mini will improve on the deinterlacing (to 240p effects remain in place, while your TV "flatens" them out), it will also keep the pixels more pronounced while upscaling, so I don't see how the results would become less "jaggy". I know your TV and it does a pretty mediocre job on handling 240p signals. The difference between that and the Mini is really as good (and big) as it gets.

Unfortunately the low resolution of your TV won't allow you to use proper scanlines from the Mini. For best results in 4:3 you might want to go with a 1024x768 output from the Mini and a 4:3 setting on your TV.

[CkRtech]

Unfortunately the low resolution of your TV won't allow you to use proper scanlines from the Mini. For best results in 4:3 you might want to go with a 1024x768 output from the Mini and a 4:3 setting on your TV.

Good eye, Fudoh. I didn't check the spec sheet at first glance and just noticed that his native display res was 1366x768...

[airs]

As for improvements, I thought the framemeister was supposed to make things less "jaggy".

not really. The Mini will improve on the deinterlacing (to 240p effects remain in place, while your TV "flatens" them out), it will also keep the pixels more pronounced while upscaling, so I don't see how the results would become less "jaggy". I know your TV and it does a pretty mediocre job on handling 240p signals. The difference between that and the Mini is really as good (and big) as it gets.

Unfortunately the low resolution of your TV won't allow you to use proper scanlines from the Mini. For best results in 4:3 you might want to go with a 1024x768 output from the Mini and a 4:3 setting on your TV.

Wait, what? How do you set the mini to output at 1024x768?

[Shining]

Wait, what? How do you set the mini to output at 1024x768?

As far as i know this is only selectable in DVI mode. So switch to DVI and then select desired resolution.

[airs]

How is 1366x768 a low resolution considering many people run the mini in 720p? 1366x768 > 1280x720 so..huh?

I'm using a plasma that has a 1366x768 native resolution and I have the mini set to output in 720p. I think my scanlines look good but maybe I don't know what I'm missing out on?

[MMJuno]

How is 1366x768 a low resolution considering many people run the mini in 720p?

We run it in 720p on 1080p sets, mainly because 1080p scanlines are garbage/broken.

[airs]

How is 1366x768 a low resolution considering many people run the mini in 720p?

We run it in 720p on 1080p sets, mainly because 1080p scanlines are garbage/broken.

Yes..I know that.

[Fudoh]

because *usually* WXGA panels aren't good at upscaling scanlined 480p or 720p images. I'm not saying that's impossible (see your plasma display), but *most* 768p panels do a lousy job.

[airs]

I see, thanks for clarifying.

[jessiewonka]

I have a post in another thread (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... &p=1024401) that's possibly relevant to the XRGB-mini and the SNES 1CHIP if anyone has any thoughts.

[Fudoh]

what RGB32E said. 1CHIP > Mini wouldn't drop out. It's either the switch or the sync stripper or the combination of both. Sync Level 30 is way too high...

[CkRtech]

Perhaps a bit niche, but - Any of you guys using an MSX with your Mini? I have a Panasonic MSX2+ WSX machine, and I would like to pick up an RGB cable for it and add it to the family of consoles using the xrgb. I think I have a spare Sega Genesis 8 pin DIN to SCART cable I can use. I'll rewire at the SCART end, however I don't know how good the quality is on that cable and have also found conflicting pinout info for the DIN8 output of the numerous MSX machines.

I am also making the assumption that the pins of the 8 pin DIN line up the same on the MSX as they do on the Genesis. I'll have to take a look tonight.

[jessiewonka]

what RGB32E said. 1CHIP > Mini wouldn't drop out. It's either the switch or the sync stripper or the combination of both. Sync Level 30 is way too high...

That sync stripper has caused so many headaches, but I'm concerned if I swap it for a cable without the chip that one of my consoles may complain, since everything else is currently working fine. Isn't it odd though that sync would be an issue at some random moment in the game? I'd think it'd either be an issue or not for the whole game.

Is there a down side to using sync level 30 for those games?

[Fudoh]

Yoshi draws more power from the SNES than other games. This combined with the white peaks during the intro can cause the dropouts. There nothing bad about running a sync level of 30, but it tells you something is wrong with the source.

[airs]

I had sync issues with some games (Chrono Trigger, SF2T) on my SNES until I wired CSYNC (pin 3 of the av multiout for NTSC systems) to Composite video on the scart end.

At this point, I don't need a sync stripper with any console - 3do, snes, genesis/cd/32x, PS1, NES, N64, Saturn, DC. My Neo Geo Omega CMVS does need Sync Level to be set to 14-20 though (I use 16 for it currently).

[Elrinth]

"A word about the processing delay: the XRGB-mini is fast, really fast! In fact, it's so fast, that I don't even understand how it works. I haven't measured the actual delay(s) yet, but from a comparison with the XRGB-3's B1 mode, the Mini doesn't "feel" any slower. The delay is supposed to be shown on the full status screen. Depending on the input resolution, the output resolution and the processing mode, the delays shown range from 1.03ms to 9.83ms."

Anyone have a clue how much the added delay actually is?
Say I upscale SNES with rgb cable to 1080p. Or 720p. How much delay is that?
Or the Famicom/NES with tim's rgb mot up to 1080p. How much delay is that?

I'm curious cause I tried duck hunt, and if I mash the zapper like a crazed mad man then it would like register the first zap on my second zap. if I'm lucky. Ofcourse my HDTV adds a pretty notable delay even in game mode. But I also tried with my computer monitor which is supposed to have 2" delay. no luck there tho.

[pyrotek85]

"A word about the processing delay: the XRGB-mini is fast, really fast! In fact, it's so fast, that I don't even understand how it works. I haven't measured the actual delay(s) yet, but from a comparison with the XRGB-3's B1 mode, the Mini doesn't "feel" any slower. The delay is supposed to be shown on the full status screen. Depending on the input resolution, the output resolution and the processing mode, the delays shown range from 1.03ms to 9.83ms."

Anyone have a clue how much the added delay actually is?
Say I upscale SNES with rgb cable to 1080p. Or 720p. How much delay is that?
Or the Famicom/NES with tim's rgb mot up to 1080p. How much delay is that?

I'm curious cause I tried duck hunt, and if I mash the zapper like a crazed mad man then it would like register the first zap on my second zap. if I'm lucky. Ofcourse my HDTV adds a pretty notable delay even in game mode. But I also tried with my computer monitor which is supposed to have 2" delay. no luck there tho.

I don't recall the exact details, but my understanding was that the zapper won't ever work with modern displays because of some fundamental difference in the way the display operates. It's not simply a matter of delay in other words.

[jessiewonka]

Yoshi draws more power from the SNES than other games. This combined with the white peaks during the intro can cause the dropouts. There nothing bad about running a sync level of 30, but it tells you something is wrong with the source.

I had sync issues with some games (Chrono Trigger, SF2T) on my SNES until I wired CSYNC (pin 3 of the av multiout for NTSC systems) to Composite video on the scart end.

At this point, I don't need a sync stripper with any console - 3do, snes, genesis/cd/32x, PS1, NES, N64, Saturn, DC. My Neo Geo Omega CMVS does need Sync Level to be set to 14-20 though (I use 16 for it currently).

Interesting, thanks for the responses.

I'm going to order one of their mini adapters without the sync stripper and see how it goes. Worse case scenario seems like I'll just have to set sync levels manually for those random SNES games.

[Fudoh]

Anyone have a clue how much the added delay actually is?

all analogue inputs to HDMI - no matter which input or output resolution: 24ms.

[Elrinth]

@pyrotek85:the only reason it's not working is because of the added latency by hdtvs. everything else you've been reading about why zapper isn't working on modern hdtv is made up mumbo jumbo.

@Fudoh thank you!

24ms means the framemeister will never function as intended with duck hunt or any other zapper game as the delay can max be 16ms (1/60). this is in theory ofcourse.
Maybe a pal version of the game would have better luck to work as it is running slower 1/50, that would be: 20ms

lowest latency atm for a hdtv seems to be 17ms. so in theory such a tv should be able to run the pal version of duck hunt correctly.

[pyrotek85]

@pyrotek85:the only reason it's not working is because of the added latency by hdtvs. everything else you've been reading about why zapper isn't working on modern hdtv is made up mumbo jumbo.

OK, so it is because of delay, but it's inherent in all HDTV's? Has anyone ever fixed it somehow? I always got the impression that it was a fool's errand thus far.

[Fudoh]

about why zapper isn't working on modern hdtv is made up mumbo jumbo.

but then again the NES zapper even works when aimed towards any light bulb instead on the screen.