XRGB-mini Framemeister

[arovane]

By the way, I heard someone over here made an overlay for the mini remote, is that correct? If it is then I would love to get one of those!

Yes, see this Ebay listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XRGB-Mini-Frame ... 35cbc7149d

I recently ordered one, it's quite good.

Ordered. Thanks

[jessiewonka]

By the way, I heard someone over here made an overlay for the mini remote, is that correct? If it is then I would love to get one of those!

That would be nice, haven't seen any floating around. I just printed out the translated graphic and had it laminated.

[opt2not]

That would be nice, haven't seen any floating around. I just printed out the translated graphic and had it laminated.

Yes, see this Ebay listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XRGB-Mini-Frame ... 35cbc7149d

I recently ordered one, it's quite good.

[jessiewonka]

That would be nice, haven't seen any floating around. I just printed out the translated graphic and had it laminated.

Yes, see this Ebay listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XRGB-Mini-Frame ... 35cbc7149d

I recently ordered one, it's quite good.

Totally missed that, ordered, thx!

[AkibaDecker]

^ I ordered one as well before even getting the framemeister , it's mandatory

It's true.

[brownvim]

Is there one made for the XRGB-3? The overlay for the remote.

[Fudoh]

No, but the XRGB-3 really only uses a handful buttons for it's menu navigation anyway. Most of the buttons are for stuff that you usually don't use (Windows Picture in Picture mode and so on).

[austin532]

Strange question of the day, would turning on "Game Mode" on the TV help reduce lag even more while using the Framemeister or would it make it actually make it worse due to the TV having to process and convert the incoming signal?

[eightbitminiboss]

Strange question of the day, would turning on "Game Mode" on the TV help reduce lag even more while using the Framemeister or would it make it actually make it worse due to the TV having to process and convert the incoming signal?

You need game mode or whatever low processing mode available on your display. Why do you think it even exists? You still need it with current consoles.

[austin532]

I know you need it but since the Frameister is fast and has next to no lag already I figured you didn't need it and that enabling it would actually increase the lag due to the TV being slower.

The downside of Game Mode is the picture quality is reduced due to the lowered settings, would setting these back to the way they were while still keeping Game Mode on work?

[eightbitminiboss]

I know you need it but since the Frameister is fast and has next to no lag already I figured you didn't need it and that enabling it would actually increase the lag due to the TV being slower.

The downside of Game Mode is the picture quality is reduced due to the lowered settings, would setting these back to the way they were while still keeping Game Mode on work?

Well you can try for yourself if you have a Framemeister. You'll find that using a HDTV's standard processing will introduce very noticeable lag. I remember when I was setting up my capture setup I accidentally reset my settings on my television and noticed really bad lag while Super Mario World was playing its demo and having the capture window on my PC.

What type of picture quality are we talking about? Colors, saturation, brightness, etc? You can change those and keep Game Mode. If you're talking about those 120/240Mhz refresh rate or whatever buzzword feaure junk that manufacturers put in, it'll just reintroduce the problem.

[EmperorZelos]

I know you need it but since the Frameister is fast and has next to no lag already I figured you didn't need it and that enabling it would actually increase the lag due to the TV being slower.

Without the framemeister my games are unplayable as the lag is so severe @.@

[darcagn]

I know you need it but since the Frameister is fast and has next to no lag already I figured you didn't need it and that enabling it would actually increase the lag due to the TV being slower.

The downside of Game Mode is the picture quality is reduced due to the lowered settings, would setting these back to the way they were while still keeping Game Mode on work?

"Game Mode" is basically "No signal processing mode."

If you keep Game Mode off, your TV will apply processing to the HDMI input and introduce lag. The lag on HDMI ports is very small compared to the lag from SD (standard definition) sources, but it is still there.

If you turn Game Mode on and then turn the signal processing options on, you'll be turning Game Mode off, because all Game Mode is is disabling signal processing.

When you're playing video games, no matter from what source, always turn on Game Mode or disable all picture processing options on your television. Near-lagless signal processing is what you bought the Framemeister for.

[austin532]

I know you need it but since the Frameister is fast and has next to no lag already I figured you didn't need it and that enabling it would actually increase the lag due to the TV being slower.

The downside of Game Mode is the picture quality is reduced due to the lowered settings, would setting these back to the way they were while still keeping Game Mode on work?

Well you can try for yourself if you have a Framemeister. You'll find that using a HDTV's standard processing will introduce very noticeable lag. I remember when I was setting up my capture setup I accidentally reset my settings on my television and noticed really bad lag while Super Mario World was playing its demo and having the capture window on my PC.

What type of picture quality are we talking about? Colors, saturation, brightness, etc? You can change those and keep Game Mode. If you're talking about those 120/240Mhz refresh rate or whatever buzzword feaure junk that manufacturers put in, it'll just reintroduce the problem.

Yes, Game Mode changes the Color, Contrast, Brightness, Sharpness, etc. Perhaps I should just leave them alone and adjust any settings with the Mini to be safe?

I know you need it but since the Frameister is fast and has next to no lag already I figured you didn't need it and that enabling it would actually increase the lag due to the TV being slower.

The downside of Game Mode is the picture quality is reduced due to the lowered settings, would setting these back to the way they were while still keeping Game Mode on work?

"Game Mode" is basically "No signal processing mode."

If you keep Game Mode off, your TV will apply processing to the HDMI input and introduce lag. The lag on HDMI ports is very small compared to the lag from SD (standard definition) sources, but it is still there.

If you turn Game Mode on and then turn the signal processing options on, you'll be turning Game Mode off, because all Game Mode is is disabling signal processing.

When you're playing video games, no matter from what source, always turn on Game Mode or disable all picture processing options on your television. Near-lagless signal processing is what you bought the Framemeister for.

Interesting, I always thought there was more lag using HDMI compared to SD due to HDMI having to send more data.

Actually I bought the Frameister so I could get that perfect CRT look on a HDTV and after spending several months with it I realized that's not possible. It comes pretty damn close and is a hell of a lot better than just doing straight system to TV but there is just something about CRT that the Framemeister can't emulate yet. I'm that 1 guy out of 10 people who prefers a crappier image similar to CRT when playing older games rather than a sharper, vibrant, more detailed image.

Hopefully the next XRGB will have curvature and shader effects similar to MAME's HLSL mode to help get that true CRT look.

[Ed Oscuro]

For HDMI your system just has to send pixels out to the screen.

In a typical TV, SD signals get upscaled, and that takes significant time. (The alternative would be just placing those pixels in the middle of the screen, but only some professional monitors have that option, and it won't look good for many systems due - aside from the too-small-size - to the failure to correct for aspect ratio differences.)

I understand the CRT thing (I like the same retro look) but my hope is that the next XRGB will have more lag reducing features (in conjunction with displays), like an implementation of G-SYNC.

HLSL and the like would only make things worse from a performance standpoint. Those effects aren't being run in parallel with the original hardware pushing out lines of resolution, one scanline at a time.

[Fudoh]

In a typical TV, SD signals get upscaled, and that takes significant time

it's not the upscaling that requires time. Most TVs show the exact same lag figures when fed with 480p or 720p compared to 1080p. It's the deinterlacing progress (or the initial step from 15 to 31khz) which takes time and introduces lag.

[BuckoA51]

On the subject is there any way of lag testing a TVs deinterlacing? I was chatting to someone on the Sega Saturn forum claiming to have done the Vs CRT test with his Panasonic plasma and got 20ms for a 480i signal, compared to 56ms on a newer set. 20ms seems exceptionally low for an interlaced image and if that really is accurate then the claim that the Mini reduces lag Vs just sticking your retro consoles into the SCART socket might not be true in a good number of cases.

[Fudoh]

Panasonic's plasma sets were notorious for their lack of better deinterlacing until quite recently. No cadence detection at all, no film mode. So if you run a deinterlacer locked in video mode and just utilize a single-frame buffer, 20ms seem managable. The early professional Pioneer plasma sets use the same deinterlacer as the XRGB-3 does in it's B1 mode, so of course they're faster than the Mini.

The 1.5 frames the Mini takes to process 15khz signals is certainly better than most TV sets handle this kind of signal. Not saying that there are no exceptions of course. But combine the speed with the quality and it's hard to beat anyway.

[BuckoA51]

Panasonic's plasma sets were notorious for their lack of better deinterlacing until quite recently. No cadence detection at all, no film mode.

Really, I was not aware of that, well that explains it.

The 1.5 frames the Mini takes to process 15khz signals is certainly better than most TV sets handle this kind of signal. Not saying that there are no exceptions of course. But combine the speed with the quality and it's hard to beat anyway.

I can only think of XRGB3+ABT scaler and of course we all know that has its own set of caveats.

[kel]

The 1.5 frames the Mini takes to process 15khz signals is certainly better than most TV sets handle this kind of signal. Not saying that there are no exceptions of course. But combine the speed with the quality and it's hard to beat anyway.

I can only think of XRGB3+ABT scaler and of course we all know that has its own set of caveats.

Not for interlaced 15Khz. For decent 480i deinterlacing the XRGB3+DVDO Edge is 2 frames slower than the Mini.

[Fudoh]

really depends on the kind of deinterlacing you're looking for. The non-interpolated field scaling mode of the XRGB-3 is about the ONLY thing I'm missing in the Mini. I would love to have that mode back.

[Ed Oscuro]

In a typical TV, SD signals get upscaled, and that takes significant time

it's not the upscaling that requires time. Most TVs show the exact same lag figures when fed with 480p or 720p compared to 1080p. It's the deinterlacing progress (or the initial step from 15 to 31khz) which takes time and introduces lag.

480p and 720p aren't SD, but yes, that's a better explanation.

(Kind of out-there, but that does go a ways towards explaining how sets that treat 240p as a progressive signal can have fast 240p scaling, like the old Pioneer plasma you reviewed some time back, perhaps?)

[austin532]

What is the best way to reduce the fuzziness on the Movie setting for Image Mode?

Also, anyone got any good PS2 Component vs. RGB comparison pics?

[marqs]

On the subject is there any way of lag testing a TVs deinterlacing? I was chatting to someone on the Sega Saturn forum claiming to have done the Vs CRT test with his Panasonic plasma and got 20ms for a 480i signal, compared to 56ms on a newer set. 20ms seems exceptionally low for an interlaced image and if that really is accurate then the claim that the Mini reduces lag Vs just sticking your retro consoles into the SCART socket might not be true in a good number of cases.

My VT30 plasma has ~31ms lag when frame interpolation is turned off (no need to use game mode). The funny thing is that it doesn't make any difference if the input is analog or digital, progressive or interlaced (though it treats 240p as 480i). With that TV XRGB Mini unfortunately just adds to the total latency, but then again, 240p looks way better with Mini.

[CkRtech]

My VT30 plasma has ~31ms lag when frame interpolation is turned off (no need to use game mode). The funny thing is that it doesn't make any difference if the input is analog or digital, progressive or interlaced (though it treats 240p as 480i). With that TV XRGB Mini unfortunately just adds to the total latency, but then again, 240p looks way better with Mini.

Hmm. I am running a Mini with a VT30. I assumed there was some lag present, but I guess it hasn't been too much such that I couldn't compensate without some sort of distress. Granted, I don't really play highly competitive games where it would be more important.

[BuckoA51]

My VT30 plasma has ~31ms lag when frame interpolation is turned off (no need to use game mode). The funny thing is that it doesn't make any difference if the input is analog or digital, progressive or interlaced (though it treats 240p as 480i). With that TV XRGB Mini unfortunately just adds to the total latency, but then again, 240p looks way better with Mini.

See I suspected that might be the case on a lot of sets. I've no way of testing how much input lag deinterlacing adds on my set but it's entirely possible that it would be just the same as progressive signals (30ms here on my set too). 50ms total lag is getting a bit much, it's why I keep my XRGB3 around.

[darcagn]

So it's the weekend and I finally got around to giving a good shot at a simple 480p Dreamcast cable for the Framemeister. This is what I wanted:

- all in one cable, no connecting multiple devices
- either passive or self-powered
- ability to switch to 15KHz mode for compatibility

So I bought a 3"x2"x1" project box from rat shack and combined the schematics for the VGA box with the sync combiner circuit, and wrote up a schematic for a Framemeister cable. I built it, but I put a twist on mine: since you can put the 31/15KHz switch anywhere you want, I decided to put it on the SCART connector. The SCART cable I used to make this cable was fully wired for all pins, so I just disconnected one of the pins that's useless (like pin 12) and instead ran the Dreamcast's VGA Enable pin (If this pin is grounded, you get VGA/480p, if it's floating, you get RGB/240p/480i) up to the SCART connector, where I wired a simple switch to switch whether or not it is grounded.

Pics and schematic included:

Spoiler

Getting started on the first half of the circuit:


Wiring up the SCART side:


Fitting the cables into the holes drilled in the box:


The switch in the SCART connector switches between 480p (from VGA) or 240p/480i (RGB mode):


The box has no switches or ports or anything. Simple and clean.



Hooked up to my Dreamcast. Dreamcast also has a S/PDIF digital audio out.

All of the stuff required to do this can be bought for under $5 total.... except the AV connector. I don't know where one could purchase or salvage an AV connector that has all the pins needed (5v, RGB, H-sync, V-sync) besides from an expensive VGA box. Which is what I did, because my VGA box needed repairs anyway.

[CkRtech]

Bravo, darcagn, and thanks for sharing. The forum has recently had me wanting to investigate how to best connect the Dreamcast to my system (plasma with VGA. xrgb also available), and I like the idea of having something that is a bit more straightforward and uniform for hooking things up.

I currently have the Sega (pretty sure it is the official one) VGA box I bought in 1999, but I have yet to hook up the system to a more modern display than CRT in any sort of fashion.

[blizzz]

With all the Framemeister capturing hype recently I've starting thinking about buying one again

But there's still the one problem that stopped me from buying it years ago. The input lag.
Was there any improvement for 240p signals with the recent firmwares? My current TV (Sony KDL40EX655) was tested for around 30ms of input lag. I don't think it would be fun to play at 50+ ms, especially when I'm used to my CRT.

I also don't think I could justify buying a 350€ device just to improve my capture quality by a tiny bit if I can't use it on my TV

Edit: Maybe I could simulate a Framemeister by using an official Wii emulator and a lag-free component to HDMI transcoder. Are the Wii emulators in the same delay range as the Framemeister?

[darcagn]

What are you capturing from? 8-bit/16-bit consoles? If so, I would use RGB SCART cables, a SCART-to-YPbPr converter, and capture through the component inputs of the Game Capture HD. Any processing or upscaling you want to do, you can do post-capture. I love my Framemeister, but I don't think it makes sense to purchase it just for capturing. Maybe if you're livestreaming, but even then, I think it's overkill.