Just me or is Daifukkatsu poorly balanced for survival?

[Xyga]

Raa people get so testy on this forum so quickly!

Dodging bullets increases testosterone.

[Icarus]

Pinksweets' bug is shit tho, "don't milk too much or you can trigger it by accident".

Have you triggered it?
Didn't think so.

Considering you need to play at maximum rank from the very start of the game to even come anywhere near the record scores - thus requiring regular use of the Rose Cracker, which deletes value from the extend counter - triggering it "by accident" is the least of your concerns, if at all.

[Bananamatic]

Scoring systems usually become more fun when you get better

in other words, git gud

[Skykid]

Scoring systems usually become more fun when you get better

in other words, git gud

Dis true

[KAI]

Have you triggered it?

Yep.

[Bananamatic]

I'd say that pink sweets has worse things going for it, such as the insane amounts of milking and a sleep inducing stage 6 that takes 10 minutes not counting the boss

[professor ganson]

I'm grateful for this topic-- super helpful! I very recently got a DFK pcb, and I was completely confused by how far I was getting into the game on one credit right at the start. I thought perhaps the pcb had a difficulty setting that I would have to adjust somehow. Glad to realize that all is ok. I expect I'll enjoy the game even more now, knowing my survival runs aren't a complete sham.

[nasty_wolverine]

I am interested to know what makes it so "under par", and what you are considering as "par".

Actually I like DFK vanilla a lot more than I did originally, but even after spending time learning to play it properly I still appreciate some of the criticism regarding it being abstruse and uneven is valid. It's far from a poor game, and the 'par' would of course be other Pachis - I just don't think the many ideas that went into its structuring were necessary, and it would have benefited from a simpler approach.

This made me think back to a recent video i saw on youtube. Its about how gamers dont want innovation. Just think about it.

Donpachi: short burst chaining

DoDonpachi: long chaining + 2 ship styles

DoDonpachi blue label: long chaining + hyper mode + 2 ship styles

DoDonpachi DaiOuJou: long chaining + hyper item + rank + 3 ship styles

DoDonpachi DaiFukkatsu: long xx,000's chaining + hyper bar + rank + bullet cancelling + counter lasers + autobomb + 3 ship styles

DoDonpachi DaiFukkatsu BL: long xx,000's chaining + hyper collection + reddo gauge rank system + bullet cancelling + counter lasers + autobomb choice + shot/laser + 3 ship styles + ultra difficult strong mode + 1 loop only

DoDonpachi SaiDaiOuJou: long xx,000's chaining + hyper collection + hyper rank + 3 ship styles + ultra difficult expert mode + 1 loop only + autobomb choice

Now if you look at the above, it took 4 games to reach DOJ's system. DFK wasnt even given a shot. DFK introduced so many new elements together but it wasnt as well received as DOJ was. I think if DFK did well and they made a few more bullet-cancelling-beam-wars games, I think they could have perfected something on the same level as DOJ. I do agree the DFK isnt perfect, but the system wasnt given a chance to evolve at all.

I am probably sure if DFK was released as a seperate IP, it would have been little more successful. People probably expected a traditional DDP game, were you learn to chain entire stages and dodge everything. What they got was something new and didnt like it. If it would have been a different game, like how mushi took the DDP chaining and made it lax and people were okay with it, it probably would have been more successful. Hell, maybe bullet cancelling games could have become a sub-genre of danmaku/bullethells.

System-wise SDOJ is just repackaged DOJ with better graphics and a few thing thrown in from DFK/BL. It doesnt introduce any new elements (dont say dress system is new, its stupid). Its a good game, maybe even a great game, but it just shows that innovation doesnt pay. I guess the same happened to all the YGW games, he made something so different that it wasnt Cave games anymore, Cave fans were dissappointed.

[Squire Grooktook]

Errr, Soj feels quite a bit different than Doj to me in the design department. I mean yeah, it's obviously a love letter to DOJ and an attempt to win back people alienated by DFK, but imo stuff like the larger hitbox in standard mode, various changes to the chaining system, level design, etc. and it's definitely more than just "Doj with a few things from dfk thrown in" IMO. I definitely think it stands on its own apart from Doj, at least.

[nasty_wolverine]

Errr, Soj feels quite a bit different than Doj to me in the design department. I mean yeah, it's obviously a love letter to DOJ and an attempt to win back people alienated by DFK, but imo stuff like the larger hitbox in standard mode, various changes to the chaining system, level design, etc. and it's definitely more than just "Doj with a few things from dfk thrown in" IMO. I definitely think it stands on its own apart from Doj, at least.

obviously, its not a copy. The system has been tweaked, like the way it has been tweaked from Donpachi, each successive game having a more balanced and upgraded system, but the basics remain the same. My point was, its how linear the progression from Donpachi to SDOJ has been, and DFK being an outcast because it tried to do too many new things. It would have done better as a seperate series.

[Special World]

Daifukkatsu is the only Cave game that I really just don't care for at all. Playing for survival is bland, playing for score in infuriating, the graphics are generic and too clean, and the music sucks.

[Skykid]

Its about how gamers dont want innovation. Just think about it.

I appreciate you going to the effort to explain to me the evolution of the Donpachi series, although I regret to inform you I was already aware.

The problem is you misinterpreted my post. I'm not saying DFK should have been the same as its predecessors, but its multitude of ideas certainlty sullied the vision (whatever it was meant to be.)

I've spent most of my life paying attention to what makes good game design, and simplicity coupled with depth seems to be a winning combination.

SDOJ only maintains DOJ's immediacy and sense of urgency. It goes back to asking you to dodge bullet patterns rather than using weaponry to cancel swarms. As a Pachi I think it plays very differently, tonally, mechanically, and largely down to its scoring system.

So where DFK is a muddled attempt to triple the bullet count while simultaneously being noob friendly - an interesting concept - SDOJ manages a genuine evolution by sticking to what makes Cave games so absorbing, but providing new angles of approach.

The best comparative misfire I can think would be SNK's KOF series. '98 was the peak (DOJ's equivalent lets say) and then the following year they tried to reinvent the wheel by introducing Strikers and fundamentally altering the roll manoeuvre. It took from 99 to 2002 before someone realised things were going drastically south and they needed to return to an established winning formula, and reverted back to a '98 template with tweaks.

There's innovation and then there are bad decisions. I'm not saying DFK is awful - Cave are too solid a company to allow that to happen - but it definitely wandered too far from the beaten path to be a resounding success.

[ACSeraph]

I can think would be SNK's KOF series. '98 was the peak (DOJ's equivalent lets say) and then the following year they tried to reinvent the wheel by introducing Strikers and fundamentally altering the roll manoeuvre. It took from 99 to 2002 before someone realised things were going drastically south and they needed to return to an established winning formula, and reverted back to a '98 template with tweaks.

You forgot the part where they shat all over it again the very next year though

[Skykid]

I can think would be SNK's KOF series. '98 was the peak (DOJ's equivalent lets say) and then the following year they tried to reinvent the wheel by introducing Strikers and fundamentally altering the roll manoeuvre. It took from 99 to 2002 before someone realised things were going drastically south and they needed to return to an established winning formula, and reverted back to a '98 template with tweaks.

You forgot the part where they shat all over it again the very next year though

I'm sadly well aware.

[nasty_wolverine]

There's innovation and then there are bad decisions.

So, bullet cancelling is a bad decision and the dress system is innovation? btw the same "winning formulae" thing lead to the gazilliion versions of street fighter 2.

And my entire point was that, the game suffered because it tried new things in an existing IP with tried and tested mechanics. Had it been released as a seperate new IP, It would have been more successful.

[Pretas]

You forgot the part where they shat all over it again the very next year though

But KOF 2003 laid the foundation for XI, easily the best game in the series if you prefer tag battles. I'm not sure why the tag mechanics weren't carried over into XII and XIII, perhaps memory limitations resulting from the HD sprites? There certainly is a lot of loading between rounds, in contrast to XI's near nonexistent loading times on PS2.

[ACSeraph]

We have kinda hijacked this topic lol

Personally I didn't like XI at all and I don't know many people who did. Maybe if the balance had been a little better? Oswald was hella broken. XIII probably intentionally went back to the classic style, because the classic style is damn good fun, and they were also likely trying to mimic the success of SF4's simplicity.

On DFK topic:

I played DFK before I was experienced with the other DDP games, and I still didn't like it much, so I'm not sure being a different ip would have made a ton of difference. Probably it would have just made the game less divisive, as people wouldn't have felt so obligated to play it in the first place.

[Pretas]

and they were also likely trying to mimic the success of SF4's simplicity.

Are you sure you're talking about XIII and not XII? XII was indeed a rather simple and straightforward fighter, XIII is anything but.

XIII has incredibly strict and narrow input windows for combos, considerably moreso than SFIV's frame links. There are many difficult techniques integral to the movesets of certain characters, such as the "braking" of Mr. Karate's specials. Drive Cancels require tightly coordinated, lightning fast inputs to pull off.

And while Oswald is top tier in XI, he's not as overpowering as Kula or Gato. None of them are as utterly broken as Duo Lon in 2003, though. The game may not be a paragon of balance, but it at least holds together.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think the point Wolverine is trying to make is that if DFK had been a separate ip, people would have been more accepting of its flaws and it might have gotten a sequel that ironed out missteps while maintaining a new direction from ddp.

[Illyrian]

I've spent a lot more time with DFK than most other shmups when I think about it, between the IoS port where 1 loop was the exact right length for my bus journey home or the amount of time I spent with Ketsuipachi, or trying to consistently loop 1.5.

The ultimately frustrating thing for me is that in the end the scoring system in 1.5 never clicked with me, I just never really enjoyed it. As long as I got both score extends on the first loop I wasn't bothered. And normally the vast majority of my overall score came from the same 1 minute section right near the end of stage 5, with the vertical lasers. I could very easily get 5,000-7,000 hits and refill my meter and get the second extend there and then forget about my score. I actually tried to learn the proper stage 1 approach of extending at the midboss, and while I did it a few times it was just so finicky that I didn't think it was worth it. And that's ultimately the problem with DFK for me, it's just to finicky and temperamental a system to be worth the time.

And as previously stated, stages 1-4 become tedious REALLY quickly.

My best ever run got me to the 2-4 boss omote, and I realized I hadn't looked at my score for over half the run.

[Pretas]

I think the point Wolverine is trying to make is that if DFK had been a separate ip, people would have been more accepting of its flaws and it might have gotten a sequel that ironed out missteps while maintaining a new direction from ddp.

More likely, it would have garnered a similar reception as Akai Katana, which was largely met with apathy and disapproval, and failed to receive a sequel (unless you count Shin). Players only persevered with DFK because of their identification with the DDP series, and the solid reputation that series had already built for itself.

I personally haven't touched DFK once since playing SDOJ.

[ACSeraph]

I think the point Wolverine is trying to make is that if DFK had been a separate ip, people would have been more accepting of its flaws and it might have gotten a sequel that ironed out missteps while maintaining a new direction from ddp.

Maybe but I think Pretas' scenario mentioned above is more likely.

Are you sure you're talking about XIII and not XII? XII was indeed a rather simple and straightforward fighter, XIII is anything but.

I try to pretend XII didn't happen so yeah I do mean XIII. Yeah it's a lot more complex than SF4 for sure, but it's also a lot less complex than XI was. It's a bit more inviting to new players where XI was not, and I think that was intentional.

And yeah Duo Lon was definitely fucked, but Oswald was pretty damn bad also. I never once encountered a Japanese player in the arcade who didn't have Oswald somewhere on their team.

[Skykid]

There's innovation and then there are bad decisions.

So, bullet cancelling is a bad decision and the dress system is innovation? btw the same "winning formulae" thing lead to the gazilliion versions of street fighter 2.

And my entire point was that, the game suffered because it tried new things in an existing IP with tried and tested mechanics. Had it been released as a seperate new IP, It would have been more successful.

The dress system + original scoring system + graded challenge is all the innovation required to make SDOJ better than DFK. So yes.

I don't understand the SFII argument - most entries in the series are outstanding in their own right.

[Erppo]

I don't see how SDOJ has the original scoring system, it plays completely differently from DDP and DOJ. DFK is closer to the previous games in that regard. I feel SDOJ is closer to Deathsmiles.

[Skykid]

I don't see how SDOJ has the original scoring system, it plays completely differently from DDP and DOJ.

Someone doesn't understand the word original.

[Bananamatic]

score progression in sdoj is wack
even without the overflow the score is mostly stage 5

[nasty_wolverine]

The dress system + original scoring system + graded challenge is all the innovation required to make SDOJ better than DFK. So yes.

Not sure if you are trying to say that fewer innovations and lolis in swimsuits are better.

I don't understand the SFII argument - most entries in the series are outstanding in their own right.

same cake, more frosting then before.

[Pretas]

score progression in sdoj is wack
even without the overflow the score is mostly stage 5

Nothing new to the genre. Stage 3 of Dogyuun has an insane amount of high-value bonus items.

[Formless God]

the score is mostly stage 5

That's a lot of CAVE games.

Not sure if you are trying to say that fewer innovations and lolis in swimsuits are better.

Strawman harder.
I like how you think the Dress system is the only new thing SDOJ brought to the table. Also, it's just a synonym to "difficulty select".

[nasty_wolverine]

Not sure if you are trying to say that fewer innovations and lolis in swimsuits are better.

Strawman harder.
I like how you think the Dress system is the only new thing SDOJ brought to the table. Also, it's just a synonym to "difficulty select".

I did not say that, the quote clearly says "fewer innovations", not "no innovations" and in the context of comparison to DFK, which was radically different from any DDP game. And also, on it being a synonym for "difficulty select", both DOJ and DFK managed without loli's in swimsuits, I am sure SDOJ could have managed as well. And it was said in context to skykids reply, taken out of context the meaning suffers a bit.

NOTE: I do have SDOJ, I got it about a month back. And I have been switching between SDOJ and DFKBL in the meanwhile. I do think SDOJ is a really good game. But I also think that DFK/BL both are good games that tried to be too different and suffered because of it, and i believe that if cave had decided to follow up with a similar mechanic game, they would have ironed out the flaws in it (the kind of flaws that all pioneering systems suffer). btw just to be clear, my fav in the series is DOJ, which I have played the most since i got into shmups.