CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

This is the main shmups forum. Chat about shmups in here - keep it on-topic please!
gray117
Posts: 1235
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by gray117 »

Cagar wrote: How people value their games and collections is completely subjective, so why are you bringing it up?
Surely, only thinking about the perfectionist collectors, is not very rational viewpoint to rate Cave's business decisions. You know that, right?
Not really, you can tailor an approach to your market. In broad terms cave has attempted to monitize a niche market in what they thought was the most effective way. Clearly though (with the market changing around them) they started to just see what they could get to stick. Once upon a time, cave (at least said) they went through a phase of deliberately avoiding console ports so as not to devalue/cheapen the appeal of their shmups, with arcades more or less gone a couple of years ago they started a very public (and unfortunately belated) push on premium ports, then budget phone ports and budget western licensing efforts...

The rationality of cave's (shmup) business choices has always been suspect - in many ways this is what made them an exciting business, and the biggest player in a small pond. However, especially more recently, as one-offs became series, and single projects became suggestive of 'trends', their behavior has often confused both their own customers and outside observers. In some ways you can appreciate the difficulty in this for a relatively small developer, on the other hand perhaps it was short sighted.

... It's just a shame that anyone who felt the first release boxset was a one-time-tribute-get-it-while-you-can-special may now feel burnt. Should buyers beware and expect something different when cave puts out a single high value boxset - perhaps - but we all can only wish we had the insight of skykid :wink:

So I guess I've got sympathy for those who say it's milking, even if personally I suspect it won't do much, and it was never my bag. (imho 5pb released the 2 best games on 360, and those two kids don't seem to want to play ball together anymore... )
Last edited by gray117 on Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Some-Mist
Posts: 1676
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:20 am
Location: Chicago

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Some-Mist »

already own everything game-wise in the collection.... so I'll be passing on this one just like I did the first one.

I wonder if any resellers/flippers who bought the first one are freaking
a creature... half solid half gas
User avatar
spadgy
Posts: 6675
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:26 pm
Location: Casino Arcade (RIP), UK.

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by spadgy »

Cagar wrote:I wish I didn't own any of the games. :(
I loathe myself for it, but I know how you feel.

And I hate it when Skykid's right. (I love you really Skykid).
User avatar
Skykid
Posts: 17661
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:16 pm
Location: Planet Dust Asia

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Skykid »

Cagar wrote:
Surely, only thinking about the perfectionist collectors, is not very rational viewpoint to rate Cave's business decisions.
That's rather amusing since exploiting perfectionist collectors is exactly how they design their business model.

If there's one thing Japan has always been good at its being respectable about how they court their fanbase with merchandise.

Broke or not - and sadly for me, since I have nothing but admiration for their work - think Cave is one of the most unsavoury game companies I've encountered. I'm willing to bet my right nut they had every plan and intention of superceding the previous collection with one superior well over a year ago, which is exactly why they released it in such small quantities.

I've heard all the yadda about how they need money, I don't care. Don't believe the rape.
but we all can only wish we had the insight of skykid
Honestly, it's staring us all in the face. My predictions are based on trends, as simple as that. While Cave are still in business you can expect several more such occurences.
imho 5pb released the 2 best games on 360
Although I never thought about it in the same terms before, I'd say you're absolutely correct.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned - No zuo no die

User avatar
spadgy
Posts: 6675
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:26 pm
Location: Casino Arcade (RIP), UK.

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by spadgy »

Would be people (including you Skykid) agree with the suggestion that the business approach and practices Skykid details above are just late-Cave in a state of desperation, rather than something that's long been a value of the company? They started to smell a touch exploitative of their fan base when the Cave Shop started stocking more items than Amazon, but even then it felt like a company enjoying serving such an eager player community.

I'm torn between feeling disappointed in the way it's gone, and understanding that business is business, and they've never pretended not to be a capitalist operation (that's also been a creative one).

I guess the fan base's insatiable appetite for the output has been a major factor in turning them that way over time, but then does that really mean we're to blame? Like we shouldn't buy games from a company we love the output of in case they turn a little too money hungry/desperate.
User avatar
CloudyMusic
Posts: 1260
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:22 pm
Location: AZ, US
Contact:

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by CloudyMusic »

I guess I don't really see what's so objectionable about this. The only people who would ever be affected by "double-dipping" on both collections are only the most batshit-insane extreme collectors who have a compulsive need to own every product that has Cave's logo on it. Those people don't need defending; they can burn their money on this if they really want to, and I think they're sort of crazy, but they have the ability to make their own decisions.

The first collection could easily be interpreted as milking since most of the people who bought it undoubtedly owned at least a handful of the games that were included, but partially double-dipped to get the full DVD collection, all of the out-of-circulation DLC, etc. For this reprint, though, it just seems like it's intended for people who missed out on the first collection, since its essentially identical to the original one. After the first collection came out, they released SDOJ, so it makes sense that they'd update their collection to add in SDOJ for the truly "authoritative" anthology. People who bought the first collection will undoubtedly already own SDOJ, so they're already set and they have no reason to double-dip. I could see the argument if Cave put some exclusive bonus/port/DLC in this package that wasn't also included in the first one, but that hasn't happened.

To me, this is like a publisher putting out an anthology of an entire book series, and then when a new entry in that series comes out, they also release an updated anthology that includes the new volume so that new readers can just buy one product that contains everything. If someone's a rabid enough collector to pick up both collections despite the identical contents, then they clearly know what they're in for, and they don't need us to defend them.
Erppo
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Finland

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Erppo »

gray117 wrote:... It's just a shame that anyone who felt the first release boxset was a one-time-tribute-get-it-while-you-can-special may now feel burnt.
I think that if you seriously derive your enjoyment only from the fact that other people do not have what you have, then you're kind of an asshole and you deserve that.
Image
User avatar
ptoing
Posts: 1118
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:36 pm
Location: Gurmany
Contact:

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by ptoing »

Erppo wrote:
gray117 wrote:... It's just a shame that anyone who felt the first release boxset was a one-time-tribute-get-it-while-you-can-special may now feel burnt.
I think that if you seriously derive your enjoyment only from the fact that other people do not have what you have, then you're kind of an asshole and you deserve that.
Could not have said it any better myself.
User avatar
Skykid
Posts: 17661
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:16 pm
Location: Planet Dust Asia

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Skykid »

Meanwhile all the guys who bought the collection first time around are oddly silent. :lol:
Always outnumbered, never outgunned - No zuo no die

BubbaMc
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:01 pm
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by BubbaMc »

Erppo wrote:
gray117 wrote:... It's just a shame that anyone who felt the first release boxset was a one-time-tribute-get-it-while-you-can-special may now feel burnt.
I think that if you seriously derive your enjoyment only from the fact that other people do not have what you have, then you're kind of an asshole and you deserve that.
Agreed.
User avatar
Casey120
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:15 am
Location: Holland

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Casey120 »

Skykid wrote:Meanwhile all the guys who bought the collection first time around are oddly silent. :lol:
Probably because they already have this and are not interested any more, you seem disappointed by the lack of rage response :lol:

Image



I bet it's going to be the pauper way with the exact same box and a Sdoj disc in paper sleeve tucked in there .
User avatar
trap15
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:13 am
Location: 東京都杉並区
Contact:

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by trap15 »

I would be absolutely completely unsurprised if that's the case :lol:
@trap0xf | daifukkat.su/blog | scores | FIRE LANCER
<S.Yagawa> I like the challenge of "doing the impossible" with older hardware, and pushing it as far as it can go.
User avatar
chempop
Posts: 3466
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:44 am
Location: Western-MA USA

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by chempop »

Skykid wrote:Meanwhile all the guys who bought the collection first time around are oddly silent. :lol:
Not-so-oddly, the people who missed out the first time are happy they have another chance to get it.

I bought the collection the first time around despite owning pretty much every LE release. I mainly wanted the DVDs and this was the cheapest way, plus I ended up selling my individual releases (at a significant loss) which was somewhat disappointing but made plenty of space on my shelf lol. I had hoped the LEs would have at least retained their value, but that's another story.

I am happy they are releasing the collection again, more people can enjoy these games at a bargain.
"I've had quite a few pcbs of Fire Shark over time, and none of them cost me over £30 - so it won't break the bank by any standards." ~Malc
User avatar
genetik
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 3:27 am
Location: Mtl, Canada

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by genetik »

Skykid wrote:Meanwhile all the guys who bought the collection first time around are oddly silent. :lol:
I'll break the silence then. I bought it the first time, I don't regret the purchase. Paid ~$270US for the boxset (which included the soundtracks CDs). Considering how much that boxset shot up in price, I don't feel bad about the purchase. I got the Super Limited of Saidaioujou, so really, I'm getting more stuff in that super limited than just the game in the new boxset.

I know, myself, I don't hold a grudge that they're redoing a boxset with Saidaioujou. Unless they add more than just the game, I won't buy the new one. But if they included a bunch of extra stuff, not included in the previous boxset, I might triple dip (I also own the original LE for each standalone release).

Shmup market is super extra small. How many new games come out each year, quality ones? Not that many really. Niche games needs as much support as we can give them. When you're waiting 2 years before buying a game used, for sure you ain't helping the company put out another game (ok, ok, I know Cave is dead and all).

Since amazon japan is kinda out of reach for most of us, anyone seen it pop up on other stores?
"When a madman appears thoroughly sane, indeed, it is high time to put him in a strait-jacket."
Edgar A. Poe
gray117
Posts: 1235
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by gray117 »

ptoing wrote:
Erppo wrote:
gray117 wrote:... It's just a shame that anyone who felt the first release boxset was a one-time-tribute-get-it-while-you-can-special may now feel burnt.
I think that if you seriously derive your enjoyment only from the fact that other people do not have what you have, then you're kind of an asshole and you deserve that.
Could not have said it any better myself.
Sure absolutely - but I suppose from a more generous aspect of the fan/patron who will happily pony up a bit more cash, and/or double dip, in exchange for a collectable, or similar, to celebrate the product they like - and far from feeling pressured, instead feel rewarded for that.

Equally you can't expect a publisher to over optimistically put out much more one-off-cost-heavy-non-standard-oversized boxes than they confidently know they can sell. So inevitably there tends to be a close correlation between supply and demand.

It's possibly a bit of a snub to then see another very similar bumper release arguably out-do your purchase with apparently such similar content...

...this being said, it still strikes me personally that these are more just 'good value bundles' than 'desirable tributes'... So arguably it's more of a generous offering than a milking exercise... In all fairness there hasn't really been an outpouring of resentment, just kind of bemusement mixed with some keen buyers who missed out first time.

That other companies don't typically have such large bundles at such prices is really part of the unique, and also confusing, road map of cave game releases, which in turn has produced a passionate fan base that is capable of being put out by such ... er... re-issues?
User avatar
Kollision
Posts: 2605
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:48 am
Location: BRA
Contact:

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Kollision »

Skykid wrote:Meanwhile all the guys who bought the collection first time around are oddly silent. :lol:
I got it.
Great value for games, OSTs, superplays and all those DLCs I would NEVER EVER buy for each particular title.

Mushi 1.5 MAX/NO MAX is absolutely brilliant
User avatar
moh
Posts: 1619
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:26 pm
Location: Canada

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by moh »

I'm going to buy one, keep it sealed for 10 years, get it graded by THE ALMIGHTY VIDEO GAME AUTHORITY, then set that shit on fire.

that will surely piss off cave collectors, and sealed game collectors.

two birds with one stone.
GaijinPunch wrote:Ketsui with suction cup.
User avatar
Casey120
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:15 am
Location: Holland

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Casey120 »

That makes no sense !
Collectors would be happy to see one less on the market and so their investment more rare and valuable .


Oh you Dolphins .....
BlackCoati
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:34 pm

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by BlackCoati »

I couldn't afford this last time so I really don't want to miss it this time around. What are the options for someone in the US? Someone mentioned Nin-Nin, but I do not see a listing on there yet besides the Out Of Stock previous version (and that is listed at $631!!).

Edit:
Found it on play-asia. Expensive, as expected.

http://www.play-asia.com/cave-shooting- ... -7ns9.html

Edit2:
Woah, pre-orders sold out already. Price was US$ 387.99.
Last edited by BlackCoati on Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Cagar
Posts: 2234
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:30 pm

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Cagar »

Skykid wrote:Meanwhile all the guys who bought the collection first time around are oddly silent. :lol:
Why wouldn't they be? They probably already have bought SDOJ, which is the only new thing in this package. :roll:
Skykid wrote:That's rather amusing since exploiting perfectionist collectors is exactly how they design their business model.
I'm willing to bet my right nut they had every plan and intention of superceding the previous collection with one superior well over a year ago, which is exactly why they released it in such small quantities.
Alright, these assumptions explain a lot about the nature of this whole conversation. :lol:
Erppo wrote:
gray117 wrote:... It's just a shame that anyone who felt the first release boxset was a one-time-tribute-get-it-while-you-can-special may now feel burnt.
I think that if you seriously derive your enjoyment only from the fact that other people do not have what you have, then you're kind of an asshole and you deserve that.
This is brilliant
Phellan Wolf
Posts: 851
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:27 am

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Phellan Wolf »

I got the strange feeling of a deja vu here, the same discussion all over again.
User avatar
Oniros
Posts: 795
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:13 am

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Oniros »

Does anyone know if AmiAmi or the usual stores will carry this? If Amazon is imposing a limit then I imagine this time around it might be harder to procure this.
Squire Grooktook wrote:
Captain wrote:The future of shmups is the past.
*Yagawa smiles with the teeth of a shark*

*cue Heavy Day*
User avatar
Aleksei
Posts: 838
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:50 am
Location: Dallas

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Aleksei »

I think this thread can be a little more constructive and provide links to all the websites that are offering the updated release and that can be bought outside of Japan.

The only one I know of so far is play-Asia, there may have been something mentioned in the arguments above my post but not everyone should have to read it. I suggest OP list the links.
Image Image
[Cabinet 007]
User avatar
Casey120
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:15 am
Location: Holland

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Casey120 »

You can use a proxy service like SMJ to grab stuff from http://www.amazon.co.jp
User avatar
Kollision
Posts: 2605
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:48 am
Location: BRA
Contact:

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Kollision »

I got the first CSC from Nin-Nin Game.
Fair price, good shipping service, good packaging, escaped from customs. :mrgreen:
Phellan Wolf
Posts: 851
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:27 am

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Phellan Wolf »

Aleksei wrote:I think this thread can be a little more constructive and provide links to all the websites that are offering the updated release and that can be bought outside of Japan.

The only one I know of so far is play-Asia, there may have been something mentioned in the arguments above my post but not everyone should have to read it. I suggest OP list the links.
I've just checked it out and yes playasia has listed the collection for 399$ but can't be preordered yet.
Of course shipping is apart.
Try out for Nin Nin and Nippon Yasan. May be yesasia has it too.
alamone
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:32 pm

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by alamone »

I updated the OP with whatever additional info I could find.

My take is that it's a good opportunity for those who missed the 1st collection.
Here's a chance to get it at a non-inflated retail price.
By the way, it's currently the #3 top seller in videogames, under some super robot wars games.
User avatar
brentsg
Posts: 2303
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:01 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO USA

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by brentsg »

When it comes to Cave games, there are always a bunch of people worried about what other people are doing and spending money on.
Breaking news: Dodonpachi Developer Cave Releases Hello Kitty Game
User avatar
Skykid
Posts: 17661
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:16 pm
Location: Planet Dust Asia

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by Skykid »

Cagar wrote: Alright, these assumptions explain a lot about the nature of this whole conversation. :lol:
Er... I would hope so. If it hasn't sunk in after being reiterated that many times I'd be concerned about your capacity to absorb information.

And those assumptions? Today's reality, as rancor rightly noted on page one.
Erppo wrote:
gray117 wrote:... It's just a shame that anyone who felt the first release boxset was a one-time-tribute-get-it-while-you-can-special may now feel burnt.
I think that if you seriously derive your enjoyment only from the fact that other people do not have what you have, then you're kind of an asshole and you deserve that.
Sorry, that's not what he said at all. You're putting words in his mouth for a few predictable "agreeds" and whatnot.

What he actually said is that punters who buckle to Cave's marketing strategies - which revolve entirely around the notion of exclusivity, scarcity and therefore desirability - may feel hard done by at having their special snowflake boxset reduced to a sliver of water in the cup.

Any fool who thinks scarcity and desirability isn't an enormous part of marketing and an enormous aspect of gaming and collecting doesn't have all their dogs barking. You can get 85% of the entire arcade back catalogue on a PC for zero outlay, but it doesn't stop people wanting the same games in their original formats, no matter the cost.

And yes, exclusivity is part of the attraction. This much is toddler-grade obvious.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned - No zuo no die

User avatar
EmperorIng
Posts: 5240
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:22 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: CAVE Shooting Collection Kan X360

Post by EmperorIng »

Which Cave games were released for the 360 that weren't all-region-compatible/western releases? Isn't it just like, two?

I sorta feel bad for Cave superfans. Just when they think their wallet is safe, Cave makes another super-expensive product to torture them with. :twisted:
Post Reply