Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[XoPachi]

I never played Guardian Heroes. I've only seen it and it didn't terribly appeal to me. It looked...slow. And I didn't find the character designs interesting.

[BIL]

Is no one aware of the actual connection between Guardian Heroes and Panzer Bandit?

Masatoshi Imaizumi and Masaki Ukyo were game designers on a side-scrolling mech game called Mad Stalker at the company Fill-in-Cafe. Mad Stalker has a single plane, but plays somewhat like what was to come. Masaki Ukyo moved to Treasure where he was the director of Guardian Heroes. At Fill-in-Cafe, Masatoshi Imaizumi was the game designer for Panzer Bandit.

Later, Masaki Ukyo left Treasure and was the game designer for Code of Princess. And then Masaki Ukyo and Masatoshi Imaizumi together worked on Phantom Breaker Battlegrounds, at least the initial version. I am not sure if they were involved in the various ports and updated versions.

Unpopular opinion I am sure, but I think all of these are superior to Guardian Heroes, because two planes works far better than three, the overly complex fighthing-game-style inputs have no place in a brawler, and perhaps most importantly the others don't have an AI controlled partner that really doesn't work. But I've never understood the appeal of Guardian Heroes which I feel is a bad game and one of Treasure's worst.

I had no idea whatsoever about the connection between Mad Stalker, Guardian Heroes, and Panzer Bandit. And holy fuck, I feel like I just saw a good movie twist. In hindsight, it makes total sense that all three share that relationship. Stalker is so fuckin rad.

And yeah, I'd go with Stalker and Panzer over GH, too. I like GH in its blunderbuss way, but I've always preferred what would become Double Dragon Advance and The Ninja Warriors Once Again's ethos. Juggles as the accent to efficient, deadly combinations, not the end in themselves. I'll always respect the skill of the 1337 combo maniacs, but when an enemy's getting slapped, punched, set on fire, hooked up to the mains, taunted, then rode around the room like a skateboard, etc, I just feel sorry for them.

I'd rather turn the poor bastard's lights out in three crunchingly well-placed hits, then express mail his earthly remains to his buddies over there. Also, the unskippable dialogue shocked me when I finally got to play it. Stalker is just a cleaner affair all-around. And Bandit feels distinctly refined, while keeping that maximalist ULTRA CHOMBOOO aesthetic.

Excellently described genealogy, cheers bud. Marked for index along with Sumez's Gimmick Exact writeup!

[ExitPlanetDust]

Haha, damn. Some Guardian Heroes slander in this thread.

[Steven]

Good old Fill-in-Cafe, best known for a game series that nobody's heard about: Asuka 120%. Isn't there supposed to be a new Asuka 120% for Mega Drive? It was announced a few years ago, but nothing has been heard since then. Oh well.

Doesn't the name Fill-in-Cafe make you think that it's like a substandard cafe that kind of sucks and you know it sucks but you don't want to admit it but you have to go there anyway because your normal place that's actually good is closed? Maybe it's just me.

[cfx]

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[Kino]

I think all of these are superior to Guardian Heroes, because two planes works far better than three, the overly complex fighthing-game-style inputs have no place in a brawler, and perhaps most importantly the others don't have an AI controlled partner that really doesn't work.

Fighting game inputs are fine in belt scrollers, Nekketsu Oyako handles them tremendously. I'll cosign everything else, though; didn't like Guardian Heroes 12 years ago when I started Saturn collecting, don't like it to this day. Treasure saved all the juice for Nintendo that gen, IMO.

Asuka 120%

I've seen it mentioned a couple places that they re-used the engine from Mad Stalker for the original Asuka. Fill-in-Cafe was truly ahead of the curve, even in the 90's they knew reskinning your giant killer robots as bishoujos was a recipe for success. Far as all-girl fighters from that decade go, Asuka Limit Over was head & shoulders above the rest. (Honorable mention to the later Variable Geos, as well as Toronto's favorite pastime, ArcSys Sailor Moon )

[cfx]

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[Kino]

I can't agree with the bolded though. I still believe Radiant Silvergun is Treasure's best game, and I also like Silhouette Mirage a lot. Yuke Yuke Troublemakers is fun but just sort of fluff. Sin & Punishment is...interesting but greatly hampered by the awful N64 controller and I consider it unplayable because of that.

I can't stand Silvergun's rigid chaining system, and the fact that they basically force you to engage with it to stand a chance at 1CCing doesn't sit right with me. Great Sakimoto soundtrack, though.

Silhouette's decent, but slow-paced and unfocused compared to their Genesis sidescrollers. I did about a half dozen playthroughs when I originally got it ages ago, and never got the urge to touch it again until the english patch came out recently.

I like how Rakugaki Showtime is so unmemorable, you forgot to mention it.

As questionably designed as the N64 controller is, Treasure somehow made that thing work flawlessly for S&P (and their other N64 offerings, for that matter!), and they're nothing short of magicians for pulling it off. Much as I prefer the Wii's Classic Controller Pro overall, I found it unusable for this game. Wouldn't dream of playing S&P on anything else than a stock 64 pad. Try to come to grips with the controls, is my advice. It's easily Treasure's best actioner, barring Alien Soldier.

Mischief's the least good of the trilogy, but that's more of a testament to how superb the rest of their output was on that system. Boring early game, but it's a blast once it finally gets going. (Admittedly, it's another one I'm rarely tempted to replay...)

I do think N64 Bangaioh is superior to the Dreamcast game as collecting fruit as 'fuel' is a better play mechanic.

Agreed.

[BIL]

Yeah, I stopped mourning the loss of Gunstar Dynamite Soldier pace on Saturn when I discovered S&P. The flawless attack/evade/counter triad and fiery midboss carnival are 100% Alien Soldier 2. Ram-packed yet sleekly paced, inexhaustibly creative, expertly good-humoured boss parade onslaught. One of my console original triple crown, that gen, alongside Taromaru and Ralph.

I sometimes flirt with designing a custom panel ala Operation Wolf - gun in middle, left/jump/right buttons to side - but yeah, I can't imagine it without the N64 pad either. tbh my hands were well-mongled by Goldeneye long before I discovered that game in the mid 00s, so it was a cinch.

[cfx]

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[XoPachi]

I'm going to be completely honest...



I kind of hate how Treasure drew limbs on their characters. I don't mind bizarre proportions, obviously if I really like Kou in Panzer Bandit. But this just looks very weird to me and I've never liked it.

[Air Master Burst]

Haha, damn. Some Guardian Heroes slander in this thread.

I vastly prefer the GBA Guardian Heroes to the original, but it's a lot less distinct without the shitty plane switching, so I rarely acknowledge it.

I do think N64 Bangaioh is superior to the Dreamcast game as collecting fruit as 'fuel' is a better play mechanic.

The Dreamcast lets you shoot 4 times as many projectiles with the special and the bouncing lasers are way better. Some of the bosses were more fun on N64 but that's a case-by-case thing.

Fighting game inputs are fine in belt scrollers, Nekketsu Oyako handles them tremendously.

This is even worse than belt-scrollers with more than two buttons.

AvP gets a pass on both for being the best game ever made, but it's on thin ice and better watch its ass.

[ExitPlanetDust]

I vastly prefer the GBA Guardian Heroes to the original, but it's a lot less distinct without the shitty plane switching, so I rarely acknowledge it.

My GOD, man.

AvP gets a pass on both for being the best game ever made…

Ok, never mind. I like you.

[Sima Tuna]

I just got the Ninja Saviors (NWOA) 1cc. I booted this up after months of not playing, figured I'd just do a quick credit as Ninja because I like him. Ended up powering through the entire game. The nunchucks are crazy powerful. I already knew that, but hooooly shit... If you're ever stuck as Ninja, just spam the chucks more. The nunchaku hitbox going behind your character is ridiculous. No boss can stand up to nunchucks, not even that fucker Jubei. You spend so much time in i-frames when using the chucks that even Jubei's blatant cheating can't counter it. You can add the up+attack meter burn flourish, or pop out the meter burn in neutral when you need the i-frames ASAP and don't have time to combo into them.

Some other tips, let's see... Remember to blast your ultimate attack whenever you get hit and have full meter. A knockdown drains the meter anyway. Take the screen clear and remove annoying enemies like the big robots. Big robots die in 2 ultimates. You could scum them that way if you wanted (pop your ultimate, then avoid them while it recharges lmao), but generally I find 1 ultimate is more than enough to weaken 'em.

The up throw is Ninja's best throw for crowd control. Down throw is best for damage. I use the down throw on the kunoichi, kunai-throwers and fire-breathers.

Dash up with no button press is a shoulder charge on contact. Use this to clear the chaff and move quickly from choke point to choke point. Knife guys are infinite respawners. Use them as fuel for combos that damage the big guys. If you don't need them, shoulder check or jab and move on. The dash up with no button press shoulder check (henceforth called shoulder check or elbow jab) is extremely useful to mixup on your approach. Ninja is slow when walking and he takes a moment to boost. Shoulder check on your approach when you know the enemy doesn't have time to attack. All enemies have very specific spacing to their attacks and they can't do an attack that doesn't conform to the kinds of attacks they use. If you know an enemy has no fast attack, shoulder check into a mixup. You can go for a throw or a side swap. If you hold the direction -> after contact, you get an automatic grab setup.

On enemies that move too fast for the shoulder check to reliably hit, going for dash up kick (attack button while dashing) is the better move. You get knockdown and oki, which is helpful on those fast guys anyway.

Down+jump has some niche use, but I didn't find much for it. Jump+attack (spin in the air) is garbage, but you kinda have to use it because Ninja has no (good) air attacks. I ended up swatting most of the flying drones down using nunchucks, but a few of them had to be nailed with the air spin. You could try using the down+jump flying elbow, but I think the spacing needs to be perfect.

Ducking combo is alright. Not even close to as godlike as the nunchucks, but sometimes you have to duck so that rifle dudes won't bullseye you while you're comboing fools.

I consistently found that Ninja was too damn slow to duck+block on reaction when a kunai ninja threw a kunai from the other end of the screen. Either I just suck or you have to predict when they're going to do it. Also kinda not worth doing anyway, considering you're rarely 1vs1 fighting anything in this game. Probably better to burn your ultimate as soon as they spawn and rush them down while they're recovering.

I can't overstate how much all the gatekeeper bosses in this game have no answer for the nunchucks, at all. Cyborg boss? Double Cyborg boss? Mutant guy? Jubei? All cake. The hardest was Banglar because the damn nunchucks won't reach him.

To conclude, Ninja Saviors is a 10/10 game. I love it much more than I did before. I always loved this game, but now I can see new ways to trivialize parts of the game that I thought were kinda bullshit, like the aforementioned Jubei, double cyborgs and Banglar. I was close to death on Banglar, but it's a gimmick fight and I expected that. I still would have been enthused if I'd made it all the way to Banglar on a single life, but I didn't expect to get the 1cc. Ninja is far and away my best character, so I doubt I'll clock any other 1ccs with other characters any time soon.

[Sumez]

And I don't know what this kind of character design is called if it even has a name, but this speaks to me spiritually. These sorts of designs are peak video game characters for me. I instantly wanted to play as him.

Spoiler

It's called "anime". Thank me later

[copy-paster]

I just got the Ninja Saviors (NWOA) 1cc. I booted this up after months of not playing, figured I'd just do a quick credit as Ninja because I like him. Ended up powering through the entire game. The nunchucks are crazy powerful. I already knew that, but hooooly shit... If you're ever stuck as Ninja, just spam the chucks more. The nunchaku hitbox going behind your character is ridiculous. No boss can stand up to nunchucks

Interesting, I recall getting stuck at the twin dudes in stage 5 because they were relentless on me in 1CC setting. Then again I'm probably just bad at bmups and I have yet to 1CC one of these games (I did 1CC of FC Mad City long time ago but that doesn't count I guess, game is that easy).

[ExitPlanetDust]

I just got the Ninja Saviors (NWOA) 1cc. I booted this up after months of not playing, figured I'd just do a quick credit as Ninja because I like him. Ended up powering through the entire game. The nunchucks are crazy powerful. I already knew that, but hooooly shit... If you're ever stuck as Ninja, just spam the chucks more. The nunchaku hitbox going behind your character is ridiculous. No boss can stand up to nunchucks, not even that fucker Jubei. You spend so much time in i-frames when using the chucks that even Jubei's blatant cheating can't counter it. You can add the up+attack meter burn flourish, or pop out the meter burn in neutral when you need the i-frames ASAP and don't have time to combo into them.

Congrats on the 1cc. This is one I work on every once in awhile. I’ve mostly worked out my sticking points and road blocks, but I just need to put the whole thing together for a seamless run. I also recently started experimenting with chuck i-frame abuse and it’s transformative in a few of the boss fights for sure.

[XoPachi]

It's called "anime". Thank me later

Yes, I caught that. Obviously, it's anime.
But it's a specific type of slick action character design with massively stylized, cartoon proportions I tend to appreciate that I don't really see often outside of video games.

[Sima Tuna]

I just got the Ninja Saviors (NWOA) 1cc. I booted this up after months of not playing, figured I'd just do a quick credit as Ninja because I like him. Ended up powering through the entire game. The nunchucks are crazy powerful. I already knew that, but hooooly shit... If you're ever stuck as Ninja, just spam the chucks more. The nunchaku hitbox going behind your character is ridiculous. No boss can stand up to nunchucks

Interesting, I recall getting stuck at the twin dudes in stage 5 because they were relentless on me in 1CC setting. Then again I'm probably just bad at bmups and I have yet to 1CC one of these games (I did 1CC of FC Mad City long time ago but that doesn't count I guess, game is that easy).

Ninja Saviors is pretty good about providing regular health refills, but I'd still say it's not exactly an easy 1cc. Getting the 1cc is the same as getting a 1LC, since the continue screen comes up whenever you hit zero hp. So... Maybe better to think of it as a generous 1LC.

The twin cyborgs can't do anything about nunchucks.

The hardest enemies (including bosses) for Ninja to deal with are the fast little fuckers with ranged attacks. If you just walk forward and punch (into chucks) or dash forward and empty shoulder into circle throw, you can take out almost everything else. Ninja is a wrecking ball.

[Arino]

Are only Japanese games allowed in R2RKMF?

[it290]

Of course not.

[BIL]

Yeah, the only one who could make such a decree is our absent liege Edmond, King Behind The Wall. (sometimes called "The King Who Was Walled," "Lord Waldorf," or simply "Edmond The Mad") And as we all know, he's too angry at Jaquio to turn his ire on anything else, let alone non-Nihongos!

Some of the forum's best Huntdown posts ITT imo. Not including mine own!

[Lander]

There's a thought, did Run'n'Gun and other such actiony genres ever get the Filthy Euro malignment as badly as shmups did?

I don't remember it being so bad, but being weaned on Jean Claude Van Damme's Turrican probably skews the perspective a bit.
And, late realizations, they totally lifted the Contra logo for that backdrop

[Sima Tuna]

I was going to mention Turrican. Other than that one, I don't know if we ever got run and gun eurojank en masse. Certainly not to the same popularity as modern shmup eurojank. A run and gun with too much faffing about is just called a metroidvania nowadays. But metroidvanias usually don't make your character feel like complete ass to play, unlike euroshmups. Base-level Samus or Hollow Knight dude are still fun to jump around and kill things with. They feel reasonably powerful, which is not at all how euroshmups work.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Just dig a bit in ZX Spectrum/CPC softlists - you'll be surprised of how influential Xaind Sleena was.

Aside of Biomechanical Toy, I don't think you'll find much worth mentioning not coming from Japan in those years, though.

[Randorama]

It's been a while. I am tempted to write up my last semester's main effort outside Real Life (TM): a 1-CC of Gaiapolis. I am also tempted to turn it into one of those ridiculously self-indulgent articles I wrote for the The Gamer's Quarter, since:

1. This is the last "Grudge 1-CC" I really aimed at getting. I 1-CC'ed all games I didn't clear back in the arcade. Done, zip, kaputt;
2. The last semester/year has been a prime example of the universe pulling the rug from under my feet and seeing if I can survive that (...and yet I am fine, thank you).

If anyone is interested in the long form, please raise your hands.
I feel that I can make your eyes roll in despair by the third line or so, or your money back.

[Marc]

It's been a while. I am tempted to write up my last semester's main effort outside Real Life (TM): a 1-CC of Gaiapolis. I am also tempted to turn it into one of those ridiculously self-indulgent articles I wrote for the The Gamer's Quarter, since:

1. This is the last "Grudge 1-CC" I really aimed at getting. I 1-CC'ed all games I didn't clear back in the arcade. Done, zip, kaputt;
2. The last semester/year has been a prime example of the universe pulling the rug from under my feet and seeing if I can survive that (...and yet I am fine, thank you).

If anyone is interested in the long form, please raise your hands.
I feel that I can make your eyes roll in despair by the third line or so, or your money back.

Please do, really enjoy posts of that nature!

[Bassa-Bassa]

a 1-CC of Gaiapolis

Mame or PCB?

[Air Master Burst]

There's a thought, did Run'n'Gun and other such actiony genres ever get the Filthy Euro malignment as badly as shmups did?

Besides Turrican there's also Skeleton Krew and Alien Carnage, but most janky western run and guns are american stuff like Alien 3 or Jazz Jackrabbit. It probably helps that these games don't suck as bad as your average euroshmup, even shit like Bio Menace plays ok.

ETA: Pretty sure Dinosaurs For Hire was made by americans too.

[Randorama]

a 1-CC of Gaiapolis

Mame or PCB?

MAME, with some pretty horrible lag/emulation issues. I don't have any PCB set-up at the moment. I would say that part of the experience was just learning how to play some stages with random frame-skipping inconsistent frame rates (e.g. Second Key to Third Key's stages). Patience is the virtue of the strong, even if only Odin/Wodan's patience is infinite.