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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:48 pm 


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Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 265
Shining wrote:
Yes, HDMI connection and firmware 1.11. What i mean is that some colors become oversaturated and blacks becomes crushed. Here's an example from SMW, look att the missing green color gradients of this bush tree when the Mini is set to output RGB vs YUV:


Mini set to output RGB and the TV to LIMITED (TV is reporting a limited range image) = oversaturated colors
Image

Mini set to output RGB and the TV to FULL (TV is still reporting a limited range image)= Slightly washed out colors but green is still oversaturated
Image

Mini set to output YUV = correct colors
Image


I'm baffled, here's what I get on my side:

Image

and

Image

I tried my best to take pictures but no matter what I do (macro/no macro/ AutoAFL or not) the pics are way off versus reality.
In any case I do see the 3 shades of green with both RGB & YUV.
I'm not sure this is a rgb limited versus full problem.. more like the saturation (indeed) presets being different between RGB and YUV inputs on your TV ?

Edit: Using all default settings on the Mini, A/D level at 128.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:12 am 


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@Shining: seems really weird indeed. You're sure that you have the A/D setting somewhere around its standard level ?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:29 am 


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A/D level is always set between 126-128 depending on the game, 126 in this case. I'm quite positive the issue is with my TV being unable to display a correct limited RGB range picture. I get the exact same issue with the Wii U (limited range only console). Oversaturation and colors being displayed in a wrong shade. In both these cases, the TV is also reporting a limited range picture. Of course i always set the TV itself manually to the corresponding setting just to make sure (FULL or LIMITED).

However, with the PS3, PS4 and PC i get a correct FULL RGB picture (that's what the TV is reporting as well as my own eyes) and everything looks great. Funny thing is, on the Mini, if i switch over to DVI mode and 1280*1024 i do get a FULL RGB picture (which the TV is also reporting). So there is definitely some HDMI handshake/mismatch issue or whatever it's called going on here. Therefore i would like a setting to force FULL RGB on the Mini :)


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:56 pm 


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Shining wrote:
A/D level is always set between 126-128 depending on the game, 126 in this case. I'm quite positive the issue is with my TV being unable to display a correct limited RGB range picture. I get the exact same issue with the Wii U (limited range only console). Oversaturation and colors being displayed in a wrong shade. In both these cases, the TV is also reporting a limited range picture. Of course i always set the TV itself manually to the corresponding setting just to make sure (FULL or LIMITED).

However, with the PS3, PS4 and PC i get a correct FULL RGB picture (that's what the TV is reporting as well as my own eyes) and everything looks great. Funny thing is, on the Mini, if i switch over to DVI mode and 1280*1024 i do get a FULL RGB picture (which the TV is also reporting). So there is definitely some HDMI handshake/mismatch issue or whatever it's called going on here. Therefore i would like a setting to force FULL RGB on the Mini :)

Yeah, hopefully they will fix the status info in the next firmware - it'd be quite trivial thing to change. Interesting that you get full range detected with PS3. With my fat 60GB US model and full range selected from XMB, PS3 still generates limited/default status.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:43 am 


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Joined: 07 Nov 2014
Posts: 24
Location: Texas, USA
austin532 wrote:
Shifted wrote:
Could someone explain or point to a site that explains the different modes like "Under", "Normal2", "LB", "LB2" "GAME_LB1" and "GAME_LB2" modes? I think I know what X1 and X2 do because of the Wiki but I am not really sure what the others do exactly. They appear to be different levels of Zoom. "Under" mode for instance. Is that actually showing 960 lines when the Framemeister is outputting 1080p which seems like it would be better to use for scaling 240p content?

Thanks.

As far as I can tell the X1 displays the source's native resolution. Meaning 240p will look very small on a 1080p TV. I believe X2 is just double the size of X1 but it does not divide evenly while in 720p and won't work. The LB modes just Zoom In the picture and are pretty useless while gaming. Normal 2 slightly stretches the sides of image, and I think Under is for Underscan. I am not the expert though so don't hate me if I'm wrong :mrgreen: .


For what I've gathered
smart_x1 - gives 1:1 match for the pixels on your screen to the upscaled image.
smart_x2 - pretty much the same just doubled,
Under - stands for Underscanning, useful if your tv overscans a 1080p signal or scales a 720p signal to fill the screen.
Standard - fits to a 4:3 ratio
Normal2 - preserves the source's pixel ratio
LB modes stands for Letterbox, useful for cutting out the black bars on Letterboxed games.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:35 am 


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Location: DFW area, Texas
I got my XRGB-mini a week ago and have been experimenting with the various modes and settings using the Super NES. I've got an original model SNES with the very last board revision of 1-CHIP-03. I had to mod it to restore CSYNC since this isn't hooked up to the multi-out on these -03 board revisions, but it was a relatively simple mod, and the RGB+CSYNC picture quality on it is razor sharp.

At any rate, I didn't have a microSD card, so for the past few days I had been experiment with the 1.08 options. I found that 1080p doesn't properly scale the vertical pixel shape evenly, which results in scaling artifacts when you scroll the screen vertically. The only way around this while still using 1080p output was to use the "Smart_X2" mode. Unfortunately, this widens the image out of correct aspect ratio. So in order to get a good looking correct aspect picture, I had to set the XRGB-mini to output at 720p and let my Sony LED LCD TV interpolate the image into 1080 display. This resulted in evenly shaped pixels at the cost of a very slight loss in sharpness (and maybe an imperceptible amount of lag since my TV is having to interpolate 720p).

So finally my microSD card arrived in the mail and I was able to update the firmware to 1.11. I saw there was the new "ZOOM" feature, and this allowed me to 'dial in' the properly scaled pixels in 1080p mode. The settings that finally netted evenly shaped SNES pixels at 1080p were as follows:

ZOOM_SIZE = 97
ZOOM_OVERSCAN = 86

Unfortunately, this leaves black borders on the top & bottom, even when I have my Sony TV set to zoom in with "-1" on the screen setting. So that's the price to pay for perfect scaling with correct aspect. I can either play with borders at 1080p, or no borders at 720p at the slight cost of sharpness and possibly lag.

Incidentally, I'm sure others have already pointed out that turning auto scaling off and setting the H-Size to 5 instead of 6 increases sharpness without causing any artifacts. Just throwing that out there just in case.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:13 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2014
Posts: 12
The xrgb mini works good with my pal snes and Wii VC, thanks to some advise on this board.
But its clear the xrgb is more tailored towards ntsc systems. I have seen a modded sega Md in fudohs review on YouTube working just fine. Does anybody has more experience with pal/ntsc modded consoles connected to the xrgb? Do they send à real ntsc 240p signal of does the mini still see it as 288p?
The consoles I have in mind are:
snes
Sega Md
Sega saturn
Psone

Thannks again


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:38 pm 


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You will likely see stutter on these modded PAL systems because the resulting output rate is too far off NTSC specifications. That's the case on about any digital display setup, I believe. NTSC games on my modded PAL Playstation also stutter on my F4500 plasma, but look fine on a CRT. Actually this topic has been adressed in the past and the XRGB displays 241p or something for these modded systems IIRC.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:57 pm 


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Location: Ireland
Indeed it depends more on your TV/Monitor than the Mini. PAL Playstations are way off-spec when forced to 60hz and will stutter/cause other problems on most TVs. Megadrives are prone to the problem too, though aren't quite as far out of whack as the PS1. SNES and Saturn are affected, but stay closer to the spec so usually work OK.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:54 am 


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How do I get out out when using the Component D port? I have HDMI as the output but it's not taking the AV audio input for audio when I use the component D-Port adapter.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:05 am 


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Oh Derp,

Never noticed the audio jacks next to the D-Terminal :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:10 am 


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Posts: 214
Pasky wrote:
Oh Derp,

Never noticed the audio jacks next to the D-Terminal :oops:


I've been guilty of that mistake several times lol


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:43 am 


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Joined: 27 Dec 2012
Posts: 174
Location: Chicagoland, IL
just got my framemeister this week and I'm trying to learn all I can about it. This thread is huge and I can't seem to find the preferred SCART cable people are using with their PSX (original playstations)...can someone please point me in the right direction? Any settings recommendations for PSX?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:59 pm 



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 101
I got a sync on luma cable from retro console accessories for a PlayStation. They seem to be only doing small batches lately. Guess they're having a hard time finding connectors.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:31 pm 


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Location: Arizona, US
I bought some from her to and they work great. The only problem is during a bright screen the color will show up in the overscan area near the top of the screen. Not sure if this is fixable or not. It's kind of annoying.
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Framemeister 240p scanline settings: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450&start=9600


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:31 pm 


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austin532 wrote:
The only problem is during a bright screen the color will show up in the overscan area near the top of the screen.


Wolfsoft's "OPTIMIZED" RGB cables don't have this problem (and also no audio buzz - jepp, that's another problem of the retro console accessories cables), but they are extremely expensive (50 €).


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:38 pm 



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 101
I haven't had any kind of audio problems with any of the cables from her.

What's special about the Wolfsoft's cable? From google translate it seems like a standard composite video as sync cable.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:44 pm 


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Thomago wrote:
austin532 wrote:
The only problem is during a bright screen the color will show up in the overscan area near the top of the screen.


Wolfsoft's "OPTIMIZED" RGB cables don't have this problem (and also no audio buzz - jepp, that's another problem of the retro console accessories cables), but they are extremely expensive (50 €).


None of my cables from Retro Console Accessories have either of those problems.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:45 pm 


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No, they are modded to use luma for sync.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:28 am 


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Location: Arizona, US
broken harbour wrote:
Thomago wrote:
austin532 wrote:
The only problem is during a bright screen the color will show up in the overscan area near the top of the screen.


Wolfsoft's "OPTIMIZED" RGB cables don't have this problem (and also no audio buzz - jepp, that's another problem of the retro console accessories cables), but they are extremely expensive (50 €).


None of my cables from Retro Console Accessories have either of those problems.


Did she fix those problems with the newest batch of cables? To be honest I don't hear any audio buzz until you crank the volume way up. Is it possible that the buzz (even though it's unnoticeable at low volume) can still effect the quality output of the sound? The extra brightness problem in the overscan area is definitely there though and gets annoying with some games.
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Framemeister 240p scanline settings: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450&start=9600


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:11 pm 


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I've got a D-terminal-to-component cable adapter coming in from Japan. I'm going to try that with my slim PS2 and see how PS1 games look on it. If it turns out not to be as razor sharp as I want, I'm thinking about asking retro_console_accessories to make me a coaxial-upgraded sync-on-luma RGB cable for the PS1.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:30 pm 


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Posts: 1400
Shining wrote:
A/D level is always set between 126-128 depending on the game, 126 in this case. I'm quite positive the issue is with my TV being unable to display a correct limited RGB range picture. I get the exact same issue with the Wii U (limited range only console). Oversaturation and colors being displayed in a wrong shade. In both these cases, the TV is also reporting a limited range picture. Of course i always set the TV itself manually to the corresponding setting just to make sure (FULL or LIMITED).

However, with the PS3, PS4 and PC i get a correct FULL RGB picture (that's what the TV is reporting as well as my own eyes) and everything looks great. Funny thing is, on the Mini, if i switch over to DVI mode and 1280*1024 i do get a FULL RGB picture (which the TV is also reporting). So there is definitely some HDMI handshake/mismatch issue or whatever it's called going on here. Therefore i would like a setting to force FULL RGB on the Mini :)


What TV is it that you have?! Perhaps you're encountering some sort of chroma subsampling issue? I don't encounter the problem you described either:

Image

The 3 shades of green are always pretty distinct on my setup. :?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:28 pm 


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Posts: 1150
Location: Germany
Is there a reason why your Minis only output at 8bit? I get 12bit output with my Sony TV, even though the panel can't handle more than 8bit obviously. Do you have the deep color option disabled, or are you just using a display that only accepts 8bit color.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:32 pm 


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I have it disabled. Causes problems with all kinds of infrastructure - starting from my HDMI matrix switches to several VPs.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:33 am 


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blizzz wrote:
Is there a reason why your Minis only output at 8bit? I get 12bit output with my Sony TV, even though the panel can't handle more than 8bit obviously. Do you have the deep color option disabled, or are you just using a display that only accepts 8bit color.

Mine is also set at 12bit output as I don't have any issues with that, even though there's no real advantage unless you're digitizing a high-quality signal from PC.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:16 pm 


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blizzz wrote:
Is there a reason why your Minis only output at 8bit? I get 12bit output with my Sony TV, even though the panel can't handle more than 8bit obviously. Do you have the deep color option disabled, or are you just using a display that only accepts 8bit color.

Strange, I'm always getting 8bit (indicated by the Mini "Status"), regardless if Deep Color is Auto or Disabled, also Sony TV.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:46 am 


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RGB32E wrote:
Shining wrote:
A/D level is always set between 126-128 depending on the game, 126 in this case. I'm quite positive the issue is with my TV being unable to display a correct limited RGB range picture. I get the exact same issue with the Wii U (limited range only console). Oversaturation and colors being displayed in a wrong shade. In both these cases, the TV is also reporting a limited range picture. Of course i always set the TV itself manually to the corresponding setting just to make sure (FULL or LIMITED).

However, with the PS3, PS4 and PC i get a correct FULL RGB picture (that's what the TV is reporting as well as my own eyes) and everything looks great. Funny thing is, on the Mini, if i switch over to DVI mode and 1280*1024 i do get a FULL RGB picture (which the TV is also reporting). So there is definitely some HDMI handshake/mismatch issue or whatever it's called going on here. Therefore i would like a setting to force FULL RGB on the Mini :)


What TV is it that you have?! Perhaps you're encountering some sort of chroma subsampling issue? I don't encounter the problem you described either:
The 3 shades of green are always pretty distinct on my setup. :?


Toshiba 55" LED from 2011. 55wl863 to be exact. I think it's time to buy a new TV.. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:48 pm 



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 54
How should I be setting my color space? My Panasonic ST30 has options for auto, standard (16-235) and nonstandard (0-255). Should I just leave it on Auto when using the XRGB Mini?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:29 pm 


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jamisonia wrote:
How should I be setting my color space? My Panasonic ST30 has options for auto, standard (16-235) and nonstandard (0-255).


In general, if the XRGB-mini is outputting YUV, you'd want to select standard (16-235). If RGB, you'd want to select nonstandard (0-255).

jamisonia wrote:
Should I just leave it on Auto when using the XRGB Mini?


Depends upon what display you're using. You can confirm what color space the mini is outputting in the full status menu.

blizzz wrote:
Is there a reason why your Minis only output at 8bit? I get 12bit output with my Sony TV, even though the panel can't handle more than 8bit obviously. Do you have the deep color option disabled, or are you just using a display that only accepts 8bit color.


I think I get best results on my XBR8 with 12-bit RGB (RGB colorspace, deep color auto). I seem to recall Fudoh doubting that there was such a thing as 12-bit RGB over HDMI. :? :P

The deep color setting on my TV is set to auto (two choices, Auto or Off).

TheShadowRunner wrote:
Strange, I'm always getting 8bit (indicated by the Mini "Status"), regardless if Deep Color is Auto or Disabled, also Sony TV.


Either your particular TV doesn't support deep color, or you have the setting turned off?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:34 pm 


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Posts: 1400
Shining wrote:
Toshiba 55" LED from 2011. 55wl863 to be exact. I think it's time to buy a new TV.. :lol:


Yeah, perhaps! ;)

21 ms input lag on the new Samsung UN(E)64JS9500 seems pretty sweet for a UHD TV! However, I'm not expecting super sharp scaling of 1080p sources, and in all likelihood the dreaded undefeatable auto backlight will remove this TV from my potential purchase list. :lol: And of course the "curve". :roll:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ue65js95 ... 234012.htm

EDIT: Conflicting reports of it having 65ms, but no game/PC mode was mentioned.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/samsung-u ... ict-page-3


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