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Most underrated Cave shmup?
Poll runs till Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:22 pm
DonPachi 14%  14%  [ 8 ]
ESP Ra.De. 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Ibara 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Ibara Kuro: Black Label 12%  12%  [ 7 ]
Pink Sweets: Ibara Sorekara 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Muchi Muchi Pork! 7%  7%  [ 4 ]
DoDonPachi DaiFukkatsu 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Deathsmiles II 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Akai Katana 24%  24%  [ 14 ]
DoDonPachi SaiDaiOuJou 7%  7%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 58
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 Post subject: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:13 am 


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What in your opinion is they most underrated Cave shmup?

Poll available.

The following titles are not included in the poll.

DoDonPachi
Espgaluda
Dangun Feveron / Fever S.O.S
Guwange
Progear: Storm of Progear
Ketsui: Kizuna Jigoku Tachi
Deathsmiles
Espgaluda II
Mushihimesama Futari
DoDonPachi DaiOuJou

(^) The above titles have been omitted as these titles tend to make the majority of top Cave shmup lists are are by no means underrated.

(Deathsmiles II has replaced Mushihimesama as upon further analysis and critical response I do believe Deathsmiles II to be the more underrated game, Mushihimesama has been ported to many platforms and does receive a lot of praise so it seemed the prime candidate to swop out.

I also retract my statement regarding my initial reasoning of Deathsmiles II not being a good candidate for the most underrated title due to it's dislike by some of the community, as Pink Sweets also revives some very vocal hate, in hind sight is not a strong enough reason to count a game out, as long as those who do praise the title are engaging and state there case for there admiration of said title.

I have also donated my vote to Deathsmiles II, as clearly from the comments not everyone arguing it's case would of actually voted for it but taking into account lurkers I believe my vote for it and the fact I have now enabled the ability to re-vote allows the title to be fairly represented in this poll.)

If a black, blue, death (label) or hack version of a game is your preference or if your desired title is not listed in the poll feel free to elaborate via comment.

(also feel free to include additional info such as why the title it is better then perceived by most and why it may be overlooked, such as it having no console or PC port and so on.)
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Last edited by MrShotia on Fri May 17, 2019 12:28 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:03 pm 


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Based on your message I'd probably stick up for DSII. I think it's quite fun in its finished state. I would say I enjoyed DSII's arcade mode than the original's, which I mainly took to the 1.1 mode.

I do remember version 1.0 - 3.0 being less well received. I'm still disappointed they didn't make it into the port as extra modes, though. I doubt we'll ever see a HDD dump of them unless the code is retained after the 4.0 update.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:29 pm 


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CStarFlare wrote:
Based on your message I'd probably stick up for DSII. I think it's quite fun in its finished state. I would say I enjoyed DSII's arcade mode than the original's, which I mainly took to the 1.1 mode.

I do remember version 1.0 - 3.0 being less well received. I'm still disappointed they didn't make it into the port as extra modes, though. I doubt we'll ever see a HDD dump of them unless the code is retained after the 4.0 update.


I'll give DS2 another try myself, if it gets more comments supporting it then votes for one of the shmups on in the poll then I will swop it with that shmup with the lowest votes in that case (give it a week or two).

Thanks for the response.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:42 pm 


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it's I-BA-RA (さあ, かかってこい!!)
Probably one of the most overrated games in this entire genre.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:10 pm 


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None of these are underrated.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:31 pm 


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GaijinPunch wrote:
None of these are underrated.



Any suggestion on which is they most underrated of the cave shmups as the titles I omitted are often referenced as being favourites or the best Cave shmups (sources below). Some input on which is they most underrated of the Cave shmup titles from your perspective would be great.

Sources

Cave- Best to worst...rank 'em!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27863&start=0

Best Cave Shooter of All Time
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56818

What is the best Cave game, personal opinion
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4578&view=viewpoll

Best CAVE Arcade Games
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOaFojnt4wo
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:31 pm 



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I think 'least talked about today' would probably be more what you were after.... I don't think anyone's going to say they're underrated... Well apart from some ds2 fans ;) (I'd say it was overrated - hater me)


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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:58 pm 



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Akai Katana or Death Smiles II, nobody ever talks about them. It's almost like they don't exist, DS II isn't even in the poll lol.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:00 pm 


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I don't consider any of them particularly underrated compared to many other shmups, but I voted for Pink Sweets. Flawed game deserving much of the criticism it gets, but has plenty going for it as well, and is at the very least an interesting game. Haven't played Deathsmiles 2, Akai Katana, or Dodonpachi Saidaioujou.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:33 pm 


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Funny how the most underrated game, that being Ibara Kuro, has zero votes.

(i voted dp go away)
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:44 pm 


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Surely you mean least overrated CAVE shmup, OP?
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Last edited by MathU on Wed May 15, 2019 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:26 am 


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Despatche wrote:
Funny how the most underrated game, that being Ibara Kuro, has zero votes.

(i voted dp go away)


I think Ibara Kuro having zero votes kind of makes it they least overrated by default, clearly DS2 needs to be added, I had no idea it was so loved - that has comes as a shocker.

The question is which game do i take off the list to replace with DS2 (?) as the game with the least votes is clearly underrated have no votes and some of the games with most votes, especially AK are genuinely overlooked (the poll only allows 10 titles).
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:24 am 


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Despatche wrote:
Funny how the most underrated game, that being Ibara Kuro, has zero votes.

(i voted dp go away)

So underrated everybody forgets about it even when asked about underrated games.

MrShotia wrote:
The question is which game do i take off the list to replace with DS2 (?) as the game with the least votes is clearly underrated have no votes and some of the games with most votes, especially AK are genuinely overlooked (the poll only allows 10 titles).

I would say Mushihimesama, that's got to be one of CAVE's most-loved games after its sequel and Dodonpachi. It even placed 11th in this year's top 25 shmups vote. Espgaluda is also fairly well-liked, though not as much.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 8:18 am 


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MrShotia wrote:
The question is which game do i take off the list to replace with DS2 (?) as the game with the least votes is clearly underrated have no votes and some of the games with most votes, especially AK are genuinely overlooked (the poll only allows 10 titles).

I would say Mushihimesama, that's got to be one of CAVE's most-loved games after its sequel and Dodonpachi. It even placed 11th in this year's top 25 shmups vote. Espgaluda is also fairly well-liked, though not as much.[/quote]

I'm not sure if Mushihimesama was originally more popular then Espgaluda (?) but the fact Mushihimesama has by now been ported to several very popular platforms, been relatively popular on them and well received has also made people much more aware of it, I originally included it because futari is widely considered superior but your rite Mushihimesama is not really underrated at all and I agree you could argue a stronger case for Espgaluda even though that also is one of the more popular games on the list to.

So, swapping out Mushihimesama for Deathsmiles II.

If anyone disagrees with this just leave a rational debate as to why and I'll look at the evidence and add it to my informed decision.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:07 pm 


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I just want to vote for my favorite game in the list muchi muchi pork, but I'll refrain from voting since I can't help myself :P
out of that list probably donpachi
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:47 am 


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I feel like you could possibly swap Espgaluda and ESP Ra.De., since the former generally gets much more praise and attention than the latter. My vote goes to DP as well.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:25 am 


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IBARA

The complexity in how Ibara is designed and how it can be played surpasses everything else. By miles...
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:01 am 


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Ibara


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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:19 am 


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Ibara (only two votes for it tho?)
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:04 pm 


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Square_Air wrote:
I feel like you could possibly swap Espgaluda and ESP Ra.De., since the former generally gets much more praise and attention than the latter. My vote goes to DP as well.


As mentioned Espgaluda is borderline for this inclusion in this list. I will consider it, when I have time tonight I'll cross reference as many top cave shmup lists as I can, ESP does get mentioned a lot though, I've seen it listed as a personal favourite a lot and it does find it's way into top 10s because it is seen as a classic from Caves "golden era".

Espgaluda is also highly rated by many in its own rite.

It is no doubt very close between ESP and Espgaluda so I will definitely give it another look, thanks for bringing this up.

If you have any sources to contribute in regards to this that'd be great, I'm impartial in regards to both games so whichever has more evidence backing it will get the green light.

Thanks.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:49 pm 


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monouchi wrote:
IBARA

The complexity in how Ibara is designed and how it can be played surpasses everything else. By miles...


2a03 wrote:
Ibara


Xyga wrote:
Ibara (only two votes for it tho?)


Ibara is an interesting one, it's kind of taboo it seems to talk trash on any of the earlier Cave shmups, anything before Pink Sweets it seems, politics / respect for the titles that paved the way i guess.

For this reason i guess people tend not to directly bash Ibara or any of the earlier games programmed by Shinobu Yagawa that much including the non Cave ones.

But people do openly bash the metal collecting mechanic in general and when voicing there dislike for Shinobu Yagawa style mechanics they are indirectly bashing Ibara, Battle Garegga, Armed Police Batrider and so on.

People who do this do put people off all games with similar mechanics as they will often state it is the mechanic they dislike even though they usually saying so when criticising Pink Sweets.

Can anyone who appreciates (pre Akai Katana) Shinobu Yagawa's games educate me on what they find great about them and why they maybe turn some people off? For instance is it just a difficult mechanic to master but after you do then it becomes fun - or something along those lines, or did Pink Sweets put people off it and make them less willing to try previous titles? I'm just guessing here but I'd be really interested to know and maybe the answer could sway a few people to give Ibara and other Shinobu Yagawa titles a go.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:11 pm 


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Espgaluda was just #14 on the top 25 list, how can it be underrated?
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:13 pm 


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MrShotia wrote:
Can anyone who appreciates (pre Akai Katana) Shinobu Yagawa's games educate me on what they find great about them and why they maybe turn some people off? For instance is it just a difficult mechanic to master but after you do then it becomes fun - or something along those lines, or did Pink Sweets put people off it and make them less willing to try previous titles? I'm just guessing here but I'd be really interested to know and maybe the answer could sway a few people to give Ibara and other Shinobu Yagawa titles a go.


Ibaras biggest fault is the huge stepping stone it takes to climb over before you see the game.
From personal experience my Ibara pcb just sat on the shelf as I thought it was grey boring graphics and empty gameplay. (Not colorful and throwing tons of gold at you like MFBL for ex.)

Then one day i decided to try to get that 1cc in Ibara and started to dig into the game, watching superplays, trying different ships etc.
When I finally started to see all the secrets hidden in the stages and how different the ship-types where (Shot, bomb style etc etc) then I noticed how free Ibara is, free as in that you can play the game in a ton of different ways.

Ibara Kuro shows all the juicy choices at the start when you select ship, but all those are also present in Ibara...you just cannot see them when selecting.

The first stage seemed empty, grey and boring at first...but when learning the secrets its one of the most active first stages of any shmup.

Well, I could go on and on..

Also, look at the game "Gun Frontier" that inspired many Yagawa mechanics.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:43 pm 


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Stevens wrote:
Espgaluda was just #14 on the top 25 list, how can it be underrated?



I'm aware, it could be swopped for ESP Ra.De soon.

There are also many other lists with ESP Ra.De in the top 15 too.

How recent the latest list was and the fact it's very credible miteb eat out the fact ESP Ra.De is featured in many personal lists, as stated above I'm looking into it, it is very close, ESP Ra.De is also on many list, it is even in many peoples top 3 so bare with me.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:07 pm 


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monouchi wrote:
Ibaras biggest fault is the huge stepping stone it takes to climb over before you see the game.
From personal experience my Ibara pcb just sat on the shelf as I thought it was grey boring graphics and empty gameplay. (Not colorful and throwing tons of gold at you like MFBL for ex.)

Then one day i decided to try to get that 1cc in Ibara and started to dig into the game, watching superplays, trying different ships etc.
When I finally started to see all the secrets hidden in the stages and how different the ship-types where (Shot, bomb style etc etc) then I noticed how free Ibara is, free as in that you can play the game in a ton of different ways.

Ibara Kuro shows all the juicy choices at the start when you select ship, but all those are also present in Ibara...you just cannot see them when selecting.

The first stage seemed empty, grey and boring at first...but when learning the secrets its one of the most active first stages of any shmup.

Well, I could go on and on..

Also, look at the game "Gun Frontier" that inspired many Yagawa mechanics.


Thanks, a PCB is probably my next step, the fact that Ibara has a good entry price to start getting into PCBs and that you really broke down how you grew to love the game is valuable info.

Gun Frontier also looks cool, although I'm more into bullet hell, it is interesting to see the lineage / evolution of branches of different shmups.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 12:07 am 


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Ibara has so many fans to the point where you could make an argument that it's overrated.

Kuro has few fans. Few remember that game exists. Noone talks about it or its prototype, the arrange mode in the PS2 Ibara port. I'm genuinely amazed the thread doesn't just have a pretty decent amount of submissions, but that it passed between multiple hands.

I should have voted Ibara Kuro, even. I only voted Donpachi because people love to bully that game.

Here are the best candidates, in no particular order:

-Donpachi
-Progear
-Ibara Kuro
-Deathsmiles II

Akai Katana got a lot of fans from the port. PinkSweets and especially Muchi Muchi Pork! have strong support.

Ah, and speaking of arrange modes, many of those as well as certain Black Labels should be treated as their own games to be considered...

This is regarding this English community, by the way. Things are very different in Japan, as they always are. Almost every game has solid support there, contrary to popular belief, and every single game has at least one great player for it.
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Last edited by Despatche on Fri May 17, 2019 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 12:20 am 


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MrShotia wrote:
Can anyone who appreciates (pre Akai Katana) Shinobu Yagawa's games educate me on what they find great about them and why they maybe turn some people off? For instance is it just a difficult mechanic to master but after you do then it becomes fun - or something along those lines, or did Pink Sweets put people off it and make them less willing to try previous titles? I'm just guessing here but I'd be really interested to know and maybe the answer could sway a few people to give Ibara and other Shinobu Yagawa titles a go.

I'm no Yagawa expert by any means, but I'd say this:

They're just really fun on a basic level, where you get a thrill from shooting things and seeing them explode. They have hectic energy and a lot of variety. The more you play them the more you like them.

I especially love shooting things in Pink Sweets. I don't know why, but it's immensely satisfying. And I love how Gain works in Battle Garegga--you have so many options and it's really satisfying making them work for you. And there's just cool things going on all the time in that game.

I don't really think you can blanket them. Garegga/Batrider/Bakraid are similar. Ibara's kind of like them too, I think? Pink Sweets feels different. Muchi Pork feels different. Recca feels different. I'm not an expert on any of these games. I think I really enjoy all of them except Recca, which is too caffienated for me.

I would say that the problem people have with them is that they have a reputation, and they don't adhere to a cookie-cutter template for what a shootemup is. They've got idiosyncratic systems, and if you read about them they sound crazy. The games just sound crazy. People read too much into things before trying them, I think. If you just played Garegga and didn't know anything about it (well except the character unlock code maybe), you'd have a killer game with a killer soundtrack and diverse characters and a fast-paced scoring system. You wouldn't really get hung up on rank and suicide and any of that. Probably they can be a pain in the ass if you milk bosses, and people worry about that too. But most of the stuff they wouldn't even need to worry about if they let things unfold naturally. People get hung up on how hard it is to see the bullets. Alright.

But there is a bit of secret shit, which is... frustrating but cool? I personally don't like being expected to know secrets to maximize my score. But you bomb the forest and flamingoes come out. That's cool right? Yeah. It's cool.

Recca: Too spazzy but a hell of an achievement
Garegga: Just a hell of a thing overall
Batrider: Look at those characters, holy shit
Bakraid: Too bland maybe but the game is just fun and I like the chaining
Ibara: Haven't played much of it. Seems like a rough time. Reminds me of a very spartan Garegga but I dunno if that's surface level.
Pink Sweets: The graphics are great and so are the exposions. Love the bullets. Boss milking can probably eat it though. One of the best Cave arrange modes, too.
Muchi Pork: Somewhat hideous but also super delightful with a really balanced blend of Yagawa and general Cave.

Again, not even remotely an expert.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:05 pm 


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In general? Probably ESP Ra.De.

On this forum? Probably Deathsmiles II

Haven't played Ibara. Akai Katana is a polished turd.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 5:29 pm 


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Akai Katana Shin. I can understand people's distaste with original AK but Shin is a gem of a game. It also has the best art direction from all Cave games post-Futari.
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 Post subject: Re: Most underrated Cave shmup?
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 6:31 pm 


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Guwange.
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