16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread

Nifty · Joined: 15 Aug 2009 Posts: 534 Location: 'Strailya

Nifty wrote:

incognoscente wrote:

To link directly to your ballot (or any other post):

On the post in question, look at the upper right where the date stamp is. (I hope this is consistent across all themes.)
Right-click on the little sheet of paper to the left of the Posted: text and copy the link address.
Make a link in your commentary post using that destination.

chum · Joined: 30 Jul 2011 Posts: 1013

Only played 1 stg for years so this is starting to feel more and more redundant for me haha
Kudos for still doing this tho
My prediction is that the top 25 will be 60% cave

reckon luck · Joined: 31 Jan 2017 Posts: 183

ZeroRanger fan club, reporting in.

Stevens · Joined: 01 May 2014 Posts: 3062 Location: Brooklyn NY

^^^ Count me in too.

I expect Zero Ranger to make some noise this year.

trap15 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:45 am

Vote for Fire Lancer

My list's changed a fair bit recently, wonder what'll change for others.

professor ganson · Joined: 21 Feb 2005 Posts: 5106 Location: OHIO

Cool, I'm looking forward to reading all the lists. I hope we get good participation this year.

Herr Schatten · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 2899 Location: Germany

professor ganson wrote:

Cool, I'm looking forward to reading all the lists.

Agreed. Reading through the lists is almost more interesting than the end result.

Oh, and thanks for doing this again, Nifty.

Bydobasher · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 221 Location: The Bydo Empire

Yes indeed, thanks Nifty!

I missed this last year but I'll try to participate this year. The annual 25 is always my motivation to go play a bunch of shmups after not having played many for several months.

louisg · Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 2897 Location: outer richmond

Oof, I've been so much less of a shmuphead the last decade. But, it's always fun to look at our old lists and see how our tastes change. I think my newest top-5 shmup is from a decade ago though :O getting old...

EmperorIng · Joined: 18 Jun 2012 Posts: 4113 Location: Chicago, IL

Playing the inferior Zero Gunner 2- port on the switch has rekindled my love for the excellent Zero Gunner 2 in general. Call that a positive. If I play it enough in the next few weeks it might remind me why I should put it in my list this year!

I put Blue Revolver in my top 25 a year or so ago, mainly because i considered it the best shmup release of 2016. 2018's best new shmup imo is ZeroRanger. Sorry trap, demos don't count. :wink:

I go back and forth on "greats" vs. "favorites", but it's nice to see more contemporary games on lists if only to keep things fresh and perhaps stealthily force some HM listings.

re: louisg - There are a lot of good/great indie shmups being released these days, from Danmaku Unlimited 3 and Graze Counter, to 'borderliners' like Black Bird and Monolith (2017's best shootemup release, if you open your mind and count it as a shmup :mrgreen:

). Even weird shit like Steel Vampire that some think is p.good.

reckon luck · Joined: 31 Jan 2017 Posts: 183

If Monolith is fair game, it'll make my list.

Bydobasher · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 221 Location: The Bydo Empire

louisg wrote:

Oof, I've been so much less of a shmuphead the last decade. But, it's always fun to look at our old lists and see how our tastes change. I think my newest top-5 shmup is from a decade ago though :O getting old...

A quick look at my prospective list and I think there might only be one game after 1998!

louisg · Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 2897 Location: outer richmond

EmperorIng wrote:

Playing the inferior Zero Gunner 2- port on the switch has rekindled my love for the excellent Zero Gunner 2 in general. Call that a positive. If I play it enough in the next few weeks it might remind me why I should put it in my list this year!
...
re: louisg - There are a lot of good/great indie shmups being released these days, from Danmaku Unlimited 3 and Graze Counter, to 'borderliners' like Black Bird and Monolith (2017's best shootemup release, if you open your mind and count it as a shmup :mrgreen:

). Even weird shit like Steel Vampire that some think is p.good.

I've been thinking of picking that Zero Gunner 2 up, even though it has some issues (that I'm guessing are somewhat minor if you're not super serious about comparing scores across platforms..?)

Yeah, I agree that there are some great shmups these days, though fewer that are close to my favorite styles of shmup, and even fewer that I've sunk the necessary amount of time into. Though, Alltynex Second will probably find a place on my list, and that one's only 9 years old

... well, 5 if you count the Steam release date.

Mark_MSX · Joined: 05 Mar 2018 Posts: 411

I'm looking forward to voting, this should be fun :-)

DietSoap · Joined: 29 Jul 2010 Posts: 190

If I did it wrong let me know.

Mark_MSX · Joined: 05 Mar 2018 Posts: 411

Quick question, not trying to stir up controversy, are touhou games allowed? If so I want to include 1 on my list.

EmperorIng · Joined: 18 Jun 2012 Posts: 4113 Location: Chicago, IL

louisg wrote:

I've been thinking of picking that Zero Gunner 2 up, even though it has some issues (that I'm guessing are somewhat minor if you're not super serious about comparing scores across platforms..?)

Sadly, this is not the case. The issues are more that the Switch remake (demake?) seems to be several grades easier (Arcade is probably the equivalent of Baby, Very Hard = Very Easy in terms of bullet density). I can take downgraded visuals but the lack of challenge is a real killer. Maybe it will be patched but until that point I wouldn't recommend it over a burned CDr in your Dreamcast.

As I said though, it reminded me how good ZG2 was, so it's most likely gunna be back on my ballot! Maybe there's enough time between the steam release of Psyvariar and the end of voting for some people to put it on their list, too? Ha ha.

Mark_MSX wrote:

Quick question, not trying to stir up controversy, are touhou games allowed? If so I want to include 1 on my list.

Plenty of Touhou games have been voted on in the past - Some are on the Honorable Mentions list. They're proper shootemups. Heck you could vote for Tyrian or Raptor if you want, though I don't know why.

DietSoap · Joined: 29 Jul 2010 Posts: 190

EmperorIng wrote:

As I said though, it reminded me how good ZG2 was, so it's most likely gunna be back on my ballot! Maybe there's enough time between the steam release of Psyvariar and the end of voting for some people to put it on their list, too? Ha ha.

One of these days I gotta give ZG2 a deep-dive.

Bydobasher · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 221 Location: The Bydo Empire

Interesting that the first four voters opted for a shortened list of 15, instead of the full 25.

I'm happy to see early votes for Xevious, Cho Ren Sha 68k, and R-Type.

EDIT: And I see the Professor has voted for a couple of the above, and Xevious Arrangement too! Arrangement is such a neat game, because it changes up so many things in the Xevious formula (2P action, the ability to continue, a proper ending to the game), while still being unmistakably Xevious in its gameplay.

EDIT2:

reckon luck wrote:

ZeroRanger fan club, reporting in.

Stevens wrote:

^^^ Count me in too.
I expect Zero Ranger to make some noise this year.

EmperorIng wrote:

2018's best new shmup imo is ZeroRanger.

I've never heard of ZeroRanger until this thread. I just looked it up and it looks really cool! Seems there's only a Windows version right now though(?) . . . I'm on a Linux machine, but wow, I'm impressed with what I've seen so far.

Shepardus · **Posted:** Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:41 am

Mark_MSX wrote:

Quick question, not trying to stir up controversy, are touhou games allowed? If so I want to include 1 on my list.

Yes, including the versus shmups (PoFV, PoDD) and the non-fighting game spinoffs (Shoot the Bullet, Fairy Wars, etc.). Several of them have made the honorable mentions in the past, though I don't think any have made the top 25.

I haven't been playing shmups much recently, but my list will probably shuffle around a bit based on what games still have lasting appeal to me.

There aren't any changes in the rules/scoring methodology this year, are there? I was scanning the voting thread for green text but didn't see any.

Bydobasher · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 221 Location: The Bydo Empire

No, the rules are the same this year as last year.

ReSe2k · Joined: 22 Nov 2011 Posts: 98 Location: Doitsulando

Bydobasher wrote:

Interesting that the first four voters opted for a shortened list of 15, instead of the full 25.

Yeah, i could have easily increased the list with ten other great games, like every Gradius game is great, but i wanted to only include games i'm very familiar with. Hurts me a bit to not include DoDonPachi, Guwange and especially Pink Sweets but there's already enough Cave in there :wink:

Shepardus · **Posted:** Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:49 am

Bydobasher wrote:

No, the rules are the same this year as last year.

Alright cool, I'm not blind!

I just threw together my list. Since I've hardly played any shmups as of late (unless Doom counts as a shmup), I largely based my rankings around asking myself what shmups would make me want to play them again. This means that certain games I've voted for in the past, such as Dragon Blaze, fell off my list this year - I still think Dragon Blaze is a great game for many people, but I honestly have no desire to play it now which makes it difficult to justify placing it on my own list.

This year I gave 3 each of ratings 1-5. I used the same weighting schema as last year, except I gave one fewer 4 and one more 1. Comparing my list this year to last year, along with some notes for each game:

Spoiler: show

Repeats:

Parodius Da! (Arcade) - Same rating this year. I doubt I'll ever 2-ALL this game but that doesn't mean I can't pretend to try.
TwinBee Yahho! - Higher rating. This is mostly based on playing Practice Mode, which makes scoring significantly more fun IMO with its more lenient bell juggling.
Gun.Smoke (Arcade) - Same rating. Still the top of the pack when it comes to fast-paced improvisational dodging.
Detana!! TwinBee (Arcade) - Higher rating. I like bell juggling even more than I did last year. The player hitbox isn't even so bad if you get the red bell shield!
Sexy Parodius - Lower rating. Nothing against this game, just making room for the higher picks. I do find myself drawn to Parodius Da! a bit more, perhaps due to its relative simplicity and restraint.
Great Fairy Wars - Lower rating. Like Sexy Parodius, nothing in particular lowered my rating, it's more of a recalibration. Love the freezing mechanic which plays well with ZUN's creative spellcard design, but the sheer randomness does get to me.
Crimzon Clover: World Ignition - Lower rating. Again, nothing in particular to lower the rating. Easily one of the best bullet hells around - this game sets itself apart by sheer quality rather than any unique aspects.
Cho Ren Sha 68k - Same rating. Simple yet still effective. Having an amazing soundtrack certainly helps.
Out Zone - Same rating. Varied scenarios and fast-paced dodging without the annoyances I face in many other Toaplan games. One of the catchiest soundtracks ever to grace a shmup.
Space Bomber - Lower rating. Can't say I enjoy Psikyo-style dodging as much as I used to, but the unique mechanics and campy style of this game still appeal to me.
Gradius III (Arcade) - Same rating. This game's got some real issues but makes up for it with some serious ambition and a kick-ass soundtrack.

New additions:

Battlantis - Yes, really. This is a super rigid game, arguably to a fault, but I find that it contributes to its character in a positive way. The stages are highly varied, even clever, much more than one might expect from a fixed shooter with one axis of movement. The rigidity emphasizes this quality, forcing the player to fully embrace each stage's dynamics. This pairs well with the brevity of the stages, which divides the game into digestible chunks to learn. The second loop may be beyond me, but I legitimately enjoy the first loop.
Cambria Sword - This game certainly has its fair share of faults that make it somewhat of a guilty pleasure of mine, though I can't say I feel any guilt for enjoying it. I can't in good conscience call Cambria Sword the best shmup ever, but it's a true labor of love, and I admire it. Its utter disregard of the more "hardcore" trappings of the genre may not appeal to many here, but to be honest that's also probably why it's one of the few shmups I still play.

Added but not new (included before but not last year):

Radiant Silvergun - I have not played this game nearly enough (far from a 1CC), but I love its character. It somehow pulls off "dull brown environments set to orchestral music" and turns that into a one-of-a-kind adventure with its pacing and tone. It's a long game (especially Saturn mode), but no part feels repetitive or wasted.
Armed Police Batrider - I have to admit that high-level scoring play is far too strict and milking-heavy for me to really get into, but casual play is great. Picking random characters and seeing what happens, whether I die early or live to regret my poor rank management, is fun even when I don't feel like playing other shmups.

Fell off my list this year:

Gokujou Parodius (Arcade) - I think my near-1CC that failed at the section right before the final boss still leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Best soundtrack of the series IMO, but the middle few stages are really frustrating.
Jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius ~forever with me~ - Compared to the arcade Parodius games, this game drags a bit at times. Stages 3 (the TwinBee stage) and 8 (the final stage) are amazing, though, making this a difficult choice to leave out. Difficulty scaling is easier to stomach than the arcade games, too.
Dragon Blaze - I still consider this the peak of Psikyo's output, but as I said before, the Psikyo style doesn't appeal to me as much as it used to, and I can't bring myself to play this game now. Even when I was actively playing this game, I found learning the stages to be a big pain, and would much rather play the stages I was familiar with.
Progear no Arashi - This barely made it onto my list last year, so not a big change to drop it off, other than that meaning I don't have any CAVE games on my list this year. Still my favorite bullet-canceling system, unless Fairy Wars' ice system counts as bullet cancelling.

Some other games I thought of putting on my list but didn't, in case this sparks anyone's memory (and so I don't feel guilty for not mentioning them):

ring^-27 - Satisfying and not as obtuse as people make it out to be, but boy can it be frustrating to manage the chaos.
Stellavanity - Super polished and high quality, but the complexity isn't for me. Still fun on a casual level, though.
Hellsinker - Consistently interesting systems and levels, but difficult for me to rank when I can't even remember how scoring works.
Battle Bakraid - Scoring is one-of-a-kind, but also difficult to wholeheartedly recommend.
Pink Sweets - I've barely played this game, but I like how silly and screwed up it is, and the soundtrack has some really catchy tunes.
Dangun Feveron - Simple and fun, great soundtrack and theme, but very exhausting to play.
GR3 - Great MSX-style Gradius fangame (by the team that would later make La-Mulana, no less). Has some annoyances (really spaced-out checkpoints, some irritating sound effects, way too many extra lives from bonus stages to milk with) and I can't say it's better than the best official Gradius games, but it is underappreciated.
i-20000 - Not quite grand or special enough to make my list, but with how much its quality surprised me I had to give this a shoutout somewhere.

Bydobasher · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 221 Location: The Bydo Empire

ReSe2k wrote:

Yeah, i could have easily increased the list with ten other great games, like every Gradius game is great, but i wanted to only include games i'm very familiar with.

That's a good point about Gradius . . . reminds me about the original Gradius which I still enjoy playing with some regularity (usually the humble NES version). Man, notwithstanding my praise for Xevious Arrangement above, I think Gradius (NES) will takes its place on my list!

Shepardus wrote:

I just threw together my list. Since I've hardly played any shmups as of late (unless Doom counts as a shmup), I largely based my rankings around asking myself what shmups would make me want to play them again. This means that certain games I've voted for in the past, such as Dragon Blaze, fell off my list this year - I still think Dragon Blaze is a great game for many people, but I honestly have no desire to play it now which makes it difficult to justify placing it on my own list.

This year I gave 3 each of ratings 1-5. I used the same weighting schema as last year, except I gave one fewer 4 and one more 1. Comparing my list this year to last year, along with some notes for each game:

Thanks for the detailed comments, I enjoyed reading them. The Cho Ren Sha soundtrack is amazing, isn't it? You must be as big a Parodius fan as anyone here . . . they play well but I can't get into them as I can the main Gradius games . . . they're just too weird!

trap15 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:45 am

Amusingly (actually, mostly sadly), I can't get into the Parodius games because of the powerup roulette... Really lame reason I know, especially since it's not even that fast, but the entire concept really makes me angry to the point where I just don't care...

I'll try to do a detailed thing about my list at some point, but a bunch of things moved around since last year, and I'm a lot more confident in my list now.

Bydobasher · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 221 Location: The Bydo Empire

trap15 wrote:

I'll try to do a detailed thing about my list at some point, but a bunch of things moved around since last year, and I'm a lot more confident in my list now.

I don't think I've ever been very confident about my list. The majority of my list may be there from one year to another, but several games will come and go, and definitely I have no consistency when it comes to weighting them. I posted my list just hours ago and I've already edited it once!

Anyway, comments on my list for anyone who might care to read them:

Spoiler: show

Shepardus · **Posted:** Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:35 am

Bydobasher wrote:

You must be as big a Parodius fan as anyone here . . . they play well but I can't get into them as I can the main Gradius games . . . they're just too weird!

Of course everybody's different, but the weirdness is what I like, emphasizing the absurdities in tropes we take for granted.

That, and they back up the weirdness with actually solid level design. While we're on the subject, I see the series as kind of an alternate interpretation branching from Gradius 1 - while the Gradius sequels expanded upon the sci-fi adventure, culminating in the epic that is arcade Gradius III, the Parodius games took the hint of absurdity from Gradius and developed its fast-paced scoring by throwing in TwinBee. Except for the MSX Parodius, it all fits neatly in the hiatus between Gradius III and Gradius Gaiden, too.

trap15 wrote:

Amusingly (actually, mostly sadly), I can't get into the Parodius games because of the powerup roulette... Really lame reason I know, especially since it's not even that fast, but the entire concept really makes me angry to the point where I just don't care...

I'm not a big fan of the whole timing + staring at the powerup bar aspect of it, and avoiding them by memorizing their locations isn't easy either, but you do know that auto/semi-auto modes remove the powerup roulette, right? :wink:

Auto mode trashes rank in arcade Da!, but is viable in the others. IIRC you can also disable roulette entirely in Jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius, and maybe in console ports of the other games too. In arcade Da!, I personally make do with abusing the slowdown and going for safer and easier to time powerups (it's easier to get powerups with blank spaces preceding them in the powerup bar since you can press the upgrade button any time in the empty sections).

Bydobasher · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 221 Location: The Bydo Empire

I think MSX Parodius is the only one you didn't mention in your list comments. You don't like that one as much as the others? I haven't played that one in a long time but I recall it was actually quite different from Parodius Da.

Shepardus · **Posted:** Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:09 pm

I've barely played it so it's not going to make my list regardless, but I found it rather clunky (not unexpected for an MSX shmup). As you said, it is quite different from the later games - among other things, the bell powers are different (I think they're based on powerups from the MSX Gradius/Nemesis games), and the bells themselves move differently (shifting up/down significantly when you shoot them, which can be very aggravating). It feels more like an MSX Gradius game, while the other Parodius games bear closer resemblance to arcade Gradius.

donluca · Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 779 Location: Rome

Maybe next year I'll be able to vote as well. Right now I don't have that many 1CCs under my belt and I don't know enough shmups well to be a judge.

Although this year I'll be focussing on Progear and Dodonpachi, I've managed to reach the last stage so far (and then get murdered), I'll try to play other games as well.

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