7th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[incognoscente]

And the results are in...



This year's voting thread.
NEW! This year's vote commentary thread.


Previous Results:
6th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2007
5th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2006
4th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2005
3rd Annual Top 25 Results: through 2004
2nd Annual Top 25 Results: through 2003
Inaugural Top 25 Results: through 2002


External Discussions:
3D Shmups- Will they be accepted as 'true' shmups in 2009?


Voting Campaigns:
Ketsui - is 2009 finally the year?



* * *

In years past, it seems that there have been three main recurring concerns or complaints about the polls. The first was the voting system, particularly j^aws's vote for Stargate. :) The second was regarding the "widely and deeply experienced" text in the voting thread. The third was where lines were to be drawn for the inclusion of exclusion of games for the vote.


Even though I didn't much care for the "exactly 25 games, no more, no less" clause last year, I didn't want to change the scoring system yet again because it would make comparisons between the years' results more difficult. Additionally, most of the response I saw for the voting system changes were positive, so I don't feel an overwhelming need to see it addressed this year.



As a personal exercise to test the "widely and deeply experienced" text, I compiled a list of all Top 25 winners from years past and all Honorable Mention titles (excluding those also in the Top 25) from years past. (These lists are reproduced below for those interested.) I then tried to count as honestly as possible how many of these titles I felt I was reasonably familiar with. Certainly I haven't cleared most of them on a single credit, but I have played and know scoring tricks, default extend settings, stage layouts, release information, and staff information for many of them. I think that's familiar enough for the purposes of this poll. Well, if you apply the old math to these lists, you'll notice that you were only allowed to be unfamiliar with 2 Top 25 games and 4 Honorable Mention games. If I consider personally having played a game as necessary for familiarity, I fail here. (For those curious, I have never played even a single credit of Ibara, Thunderforce V, Under Defeat, Winds of Thunder, Zanac Neo, and Zero Gunner 2 from the Top 25 lists and G.Darius, Giga Wing 2, Imperishable Night, Ketsui, and Mushihimesama Futari from the Honorable Mention lists.)

Even though at this time I have played a higher percentage of the Honorable Mentions than the Top 25, I agree with nullstar's thought that would-be voters would be better served playing a higher percentage of Top 25 titles than Honorable Mention titles. At first, I took my own level of experience with the Top 25 as the effective cutoff, but then I considered the case of my being a bit above average. Ultimately, I decided on 80% for the Top 25 and 70% for the Honorable Mentions.

I hope this may help to shed some light on the numbers part of "widely and deeply experienced," though it doesn't make any clearer what is meant by "familiar." I drafted something for that, but thought it might be met with strong opposition by the players who eschew playing for score in favor of playing for survival. For your amusement, it is also provided below.



The third concern can make or break friendships. It will piss off people that want change while simultaneously pissing off people that want nothing changed. Actually, I don't know. I consider it an experiment. Certainly I would like it to go well, but if not, I'll call it a learning experience. I have provided a chart to aid voters in gauging if their game is eligible for votes. Nothing is cast as shmup because that term means slightly different things to different people. It's easy to see the parts that everyone agrees on (Dodonpachi and Gradius V), but the group shmup has more members than just the easy titles. I do not expect everyone to agree with all of my distinctions. I know one person that will grumble, but two people that will cheer. It will be... interesting.

One goal was to address the more common perennial questions: "Can I vote for OutZone?" "Can I vote for Bangai-O?" "Can I vote for Ikari Warriors?" "Can I vote for Contra?" (spoiler! 3 affirmatives and 1 negative.) Another goal was to address a common arguing point: that the inclusion of Ikari Warriors demands the inclusion of Contra, since both are "run and guns." As I see it, "run and gun" is a conflation of two separate genres: platform-shooters and a subset of vertically scrolling shooter. Thus, the inclusion of Ikari Warriors has no meaningful bearing on the inclusion or exclusion of Contra. After I split the category in two, I found myself facing two new questions.

"Does Contra belong in the category of shmup?" While there is a minority group that sees platform-shooters as shmups, they are a very small minority. If appeasing that minority could be done without annoying other groups, I might be tempted to try. However, platform-shooters as shmups is not an issue on which most forum members are apathetic. I would only serve to annoy the majority of the forum to appease a select few. It is not worth the headache to me. My answer to platform-shooters as shmups for the poll is, "no."

"Does Ikari Warriors belong in the category of shmups?" I would like to begin with an observation. Guwange and Ikari Warriors are not so far removed, and Guwange and OutZone are even less far removed. Ikari Warriors has two quickly noticeable elements that separate it from Guwange, though both elements can be found in other games we have counted as on-topic. Ikari Warriors contains vehicles (also seen in Boogie Wings) and has push-scroll functionality (also seen in In the Hunt). I do not know precisely what percentage of users want to vote for one of these long-excluded games. I have a hunch it may be a slight majority. I've seen many players wanting to vote for Ikari Warriors or OutZone in the past and have seen new faces pick up either game in recent years. Certainly the group that would vote for these games is larger than the group that would vote for platform-shooters. To exclude these games may annoy a large group of people; contrariwise, to include these games may annoy a large group of people.

To exclude OutZone, Ikari Warriors, et al in a clear, consistent, and codified manner is a difficult feat in game genre gymnastics. If I reject the double-standard that push-scroll should be acceptable in horizontally scrolling games but not in vertically scrolling games, then the means by which to adequately reject OutZone diminish greatly. I do reject such a double-standard. In my opinion, the rules governing horizontally scrolling games should reasonably reflect the rules governing vertically scrolling games. To construct a rule which allows push-scroll in both but still manages to exclude Outzone and Ikari Warriors is not impossible. It requires much effort and attention to detail. I was working on such a rule for a while as an exercise. The most instructive part of the work? A friend saw me playing Guwange, and later, while seeing me playing OutZone, asked me if I was playing another one of "those games." Maybe we're obsessing too much about pedantic (maybe pointless) divisions? If so much effort has to be expended just to keep a proposition alive, maybe the proposition itself is faulty?

"Does Ikari Warriors belong in the category of shmups?" "Yes."





As promised above, a rejected draft of a replacement for the And what constitutes "familiar?" paragraph:

What do we mean by experience? It is not necessary to have completed all of these games on a single credit. However, we expect serious voters to be reasonably informed about the majority of the games that appear on this list without needing to double-check a strategy thread or replay. Direct experience playing the games, as always, is preferred. Is Salamander a horizontally or vertically scrolling game? Do you know the location of 3 or more silos in Raiden DX, 2 or more gemheads in Gunbird 2, 2 or more dog bonuses in Radiant Silvergun, or the location of all bees in a single stage in the Donpachi series? Can you chain an entire stage in one or more of the games on this list with any type of chaining system? How much do you hate Gradius V's 6th stage? Name 3 titles on this list in which suiciding is a strong tactical option or important for scoring purposes.


2009-04-17 at ~4:40 PM GMT -- Added the first Voting Campaign of the year (Ketsui).
2009-04-19 at ~3:07 PM GMT -- Added links to the new Vote Commentary thread and The Coop's discussion thread.

[incognoscente]

All Past Top 25 Games
Armed Police Batrider
Axelay
Batsugun
Battle Garegga
Border Down
Dodonpachi
Dodonpachi daioujou
Donpachi
Einhänder
ESPGaluda
ESPra.de.
Gate of Thunder
Giga Wing
Gradius III (SNES)
Gradius Gaiden
Gradius V
Gunbird
Gunbird 2
Gunhed
Guwange
Ibara / Ibara Black Label
Ikaruga
Mars Matrix
MUSHA Alesta
Mushihime-sama
Radiant Silvergun
Raiden DX
Rayforce
R-Type
R-Type Delta
Salamander
Sengoku Blade
Shikigami no Shiro II
Soldier Blade
Soukyugurentai
Strikers 1945 II
Thunderforce III
Thunderforce IV
Thunderforce V
Under Defeat
Winds of Thunder
Zanac Neo
Zero Gunner 2


All Past Honorable-Mention-Only Games
19XX: The War Against Destiny
Battle Bakraid
Blazing Star
Cyvern
Dangun Feveron
Darius Gaiden
Dimahoo / Great Mahou Daisakusen
Dragon Blaze
G.Darius
Gaiares
Galaga
Giga Wing 2
Gokujou Parodius
Gradius / Nemesis
Gradius II: Gofer no Yabou / Vulcan Venture
Hellfire
Imperishable Night
Ketsui
Mushihimesama Futari
Parodius / Parodius-Da!
Parsec47
Progear no Arashi
Pulstar
Raiden
Raiden II
Raiden Fighters Jet
Recca
R-Type III: the Third Lightning
R-Type Final
Salamander (FC) / Life Force (NES)
Sexy Parodius
Shienryu / Shienryu Gekioh / Gekioh: Shooting King
Stargate
Strikers 1945
Super Aleste / Space Megaforce (SNES)
Tatsujin / Truxton
Twin Cobra / Kyukyoku Tiger
U.N. Squadron (SNES) / Area 88 (SNES)
Zanac (NES) / Zanac EX (MSX)






Since it may be of use, I shall provide my personal definition of platformer / platform game.
A platform game is a game in which, to progress, the player is required to jump to temporarily counteract gravity and by doing so may arrive at a bit of solid ground of a higher elevation (relative to the axis established by gravity) than the ground from which he or she departed. A simple example would be any of the staircase-looking obstacles in Super Mario Bros. Equally, though, the waterfall stage of Contra is a perfect illustration of this.

I am hard pressed to label a game platformer if it has jumpjets in the place of jumping, especially when the jumpjets have infinite fuel. That is to say, while it could be argued that Mr. Heli no Daibouken is a platformer by loosening the idea of "jump" in the above definition, I do not consider it as such due to its effective infinite supply of fuel for hovering functions. Similarly I do not consider Bangai-O a platformer.

[bucklemyshoe]

seeing as how i actually read the 1st post of the voting thread i'm really not qualified to vote. i hope someone at least mentions Abadox though. That game was awesome.

[Herr Schatten]

Excellent work, Incog. After thinking about it for a while, I'm convinced that opening the guidelines for more sub-types of games was a wise choice. Deciding whether or not a game was eligible proved to be a major pain last year (I tried my best, though), so it's good to have easier to follow rules now. It will be really interesting to see how this experiment turns out, although I don't really think it will change a lot.


There's one thing I'd like to adress though:

In the last years, we always had a rush of new members specifically signing up to cast their vote, who were never seen again after that. Is there any way to prevent this?
I seem to remember that last year someone mentioned that it would be nice if the people who voted showed some dedication to the community they're part of. I don't want to exclude someone, but I totally agree with this statement.

[ST Dragon]

]This year's voting thread.

In years past, it seems that there have been three main recurring concerns or complaints about the polls. The first was the voting system, particularly j^aws's vote for Stargate.

What about my votes?

16777216 points for Thunder Force III (MD)

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=60

[neist]

While I'm oustandingly happy that my beloved multi-directional shooters have made it onto the list, there's no way I could make an unbiased vote in such a top 25.

I'll sit this one out. It'd be unfair of me to curve the vote so. I am interested if any of my picks will show up on anyone's lists though. Very interested, indeed.

[incognoscente]

bucklemyshoe: I thank you for your honesty about your qualifications. Regarding Abadox, it received 2 votes last year, so chances are good that it will get at least one nod this year, too. Who knows, maybe more? :)


neist: If you meet the qualifications detailed in the Background section of the Voting Thread, then you have a right to vote. If we get another 80-90 voters again this year, your "biased" vote will only be a drop in the bucket. If you do stand by your decision to abstain from voting, here's hoping that one of your favorites does well.

In the last years, we always had a rush of new members specifically signing up to cast their vote, who were never seen again after that. Is there any way to prevent this?

I understand the concern, but I think we must be careful not to choose an easy but overly exclusive rule. For example, your suggestion elsewhere that users be registered for a specified number of months sounds good in the context of the forum, but I encourage you to imagine if bloodflowers, DEL, Icarus, or Mills just registered. Are you certain you want to exclude their vote? They might be new, but their level of experience and knowledge would surely add value to the final list.

Unfortunately, the most sound solutions also involve the most work. If every person new to the voting process had to fill out a questionnaire or achieve above a set minimum score on a test, then you could allow the DELs to vote right from the start but prevent others who don't seem to know their way around just yet. If slightly dishonest voters snuck past our earlier Honor System eligibility determination, I have trouble imagining that an Honor System examination would fare much better. The greatest downside to an examination, then, is in the time (and tact) necessary in proctoring.

It is nice to think, though, that if everyone shared bucklemyshoe and neist's candor, our entire mini-discussion here would be rendered moot.

[DJ Incompetent]

Tip of the hat Incog 'n Herr


I wish to campaign for Geo Wars 2, G Darius, and Guardian Legend.
Good day, gentleman.

In the last years, we always had a rush of new members specifically signing up to cast their vote, who were never seen again after that. Is there any way to prevent this?

From my memory, many of them were from #shmups and super-play. Nobody tried to hijack the vote with spam accounts either.

I say do nothing. This community is tasteful, but it ain't perfect. There's enough reason people stay out of here and only chime in on votes 'n tourneys.

[jpj]

my only suggestion for this year's poll would be to only allow people one vote, and to stick with it. in the past, i've seen people edit their posts once they have seen what others have voted for, and strategically change their votes if certain titles they listed didn't get enough support from others. surely if you are knowledgable enough, you can make your own decisions..

[Herr Schatten]

Incog, DJ: I never thought about it that way. I think I have to agree, let's trust in people's honour.

jpj: Has that really been a big problem? I think the current rules prevent single poster's votes from having too high an impact on the overall outcome, even if they choose to vote 'strategically'.

[Sonic R]

my only suggestion for this year's poll would be to only allow people one vote, and to stick with it. in the past, i've seen people edit their posts once they have seen what others have voted for, and strategically change their votes if certain titles they listed didn't get enough support from others. surely if you are knowledgable enough, you can make your own decisions..

How about private voting?
Like how it was done with the STGT?
People could PM there votes to a specific address.

When voting for politicians in the USA, it is a very privatized affair. Perhaps that could be implemented for the voting of shooting game?

[Herr Schatten]

How about private voting?

Reading other people's lists is just too entertaining. I wouldn't want to miss that.

[Sonic R]

How about private voting?

Reading other people's lists is just too entertaining. I wouldn't want to miss that.

True indeed. It helps me to better relate to other members to their tastes and preferences

Nay to private voting.

[Mortificator]

"Does Ikari Warriors belong in the category of shmups?" "Yes."

THIS YEARS A WHOLE DIFFERENT BALL GAME

i hope someone at least mentions Abadox though. That game was awesome.

Yes. Yes it was.

[God]

Some questions:

1) I hate manics, but am becoming more and more familiar with pre-manic traditional hories. Since I don't like manics, I have no incentive to learn them. Does this mean I can never vote unless I learn to like them?

2) If overhead pushscrolling run n' gun are now eligible does this mean Neo-Contra is now ok? Or is it disqualified for being too 3D? (95% of the game is overhead 2D with the ground being angled a little like Silpheed:TLP.)

[icbluscrn]

while i have played everything on the list i don't meet the standards to vote but i do enjoy reading the list and the additional comment section is a nice touch

i have been looking for but not seen on complete list did i miss it

ginga fukei densersu sapphire PCE

i did see on the complete list In the hunt for ps1 at least someone else enjoyed it

[BulletMagnet]

Since I don't like manics, I have no incentive to learn them. Does this mean I can never vote unless I learn to like them?

Isn't it kind of a foregone conclusion that if you don't like a particular type of game then you'll probably not vote for any game of its type anyway? If you've played enough of the sub-genre to know that they don't appeal much to you (not even to the extent that you'd vote for them due to their influence or "out of respect" for how it's made, even if you're not a personal fan), then I don't see a problem.

[neist]

neist: If you meet the qualifications detailed in the Background section of the Voting Thread, then you have a right to vote. If we get another 80-90 voters again this year, your "biased" vote will only be a drop in the bucket. If you do stand by your decision to abstain from voting, here's hoping that one of your favorites does well.

I'll probably still step out of the voting process.

The majority of my play time on shmup-like games goes towards multi-directional shooters, which, if they work up the charts this year, I'll probably be more qualified to vote.

In a lot of ways, I see this year as a year where people need to cast their votes to see where the games that would fall into the broadened definitions place into the overall chart. I see it as the hardcore shmup fans meeting middle grounds with the newly added and potentially charting games.

I'm coming from the other direction. Instead of meeting middlegrounds with the with newly considered games such as Ikari Warriors, I'd be bringing my expertise from the other direction. So, I could probably ramble about my favorite multi-directional shooters till days end, but I couldn't draw fair comparisons to a lot of the games on the previous lists from a sheer experience standpoint.

Still, as I said before, I'm really interested in seeing how things turn out. Some people have already put some pretty good games in their lists! I don't really feel compelled to vote if others who have expertise in both sub-genres are already representative of my opinions, at least in a general sense.

I am really curious if my favorite game will pop up on the list.. I don't think its incredibly popular. Well-known, sure, but not popular.

[szycag]

vote, neist!
Let's see if we can get robotron 2084 on the chart this year!

[MadScientist]

Just a few quick of questions. Since Ikari Warriors is OK, I'm assuming Heavy Barrel and Shock Troopers 1+2 are eligible?

How about games like Cabal, Blood Bros. and Nam-1975?

If voting for Psyvariar, do I need to specify Medium Unit or Revision? I've seen some people have already voted and just said 'Psyvariar'.

[Ed Oscuro]

I like OutZone, but it pains me greatly to see the great Incognoscente losing sleep over such trifles. Therefore, I heartily encourage all games that might have been called "shoot 'em ups" in issues of Amiga Power or Your Sinclair to be considered such today. Okay...I admit this is a much greater gimme than I was expecting, so I'm happy beyond compare.

Oh, how the rules change delights!

In my view, this distinction doesn't promote platform shooters, which certainly are popular here but popularly underrepresented. However, I'm sure we're working on promoting them elsewhere (cough 2dgaming.net). The big issue is that Shmups Forum has always been based on a certain genre-within-the-genre, namely spaceships, or aircraft, or people running / flying over a scrolling landscape. The usual.

MadScientist: I assume S.A.R. - Search and Rescue will be eligible too this year. And Ninja Emaki. Cabal and Blood Bros and NAM 1975 will not be, obviously; if you're looking for a good Vietnam themed game that will fit, try Seta's Caliber .50. Dynamite Duke is closer to NAM 1975 and Beast Busters, which are the closest in this list of choices to "legal" entries, but still a far cry from what's being looked for.

Ninja Commando is certainly permissible if Out Zone is. Ninja Combat, on the other hand, is a steaming pile and should not have been made in the first place.

I don't like these games enough to dedicate precious votes to them, so with the exception of OutZone and Ninja Emaki and possibly Ninja Commando (and Cybattler, but I don't think that game's shmupness was ever in doubt), I will probably vote exclusively traditionally legitimate Top25 vote "shmups." I'll vote Ninja Emaki and Out Zone for sure, but I'll be ranking them appropriately.

[incognoscente]

Replies for jpj, God, and MadScientist.

my only suggestion for this year's poll would be to only allow people one vote, and to stick with it.

While this suggestion is tempting, it would take too much effort to enforce. It would also need to be explicitly declared beforehand, lest empty posts labeled "Placeholder Vote" become a user's actual vote. Sorry, not this year.

Does this mean I can never vote unless I learn to like [manics]?

If overhead pushscrolling run n' gun are now eligible does this mean Neo-Contra is now ok?

I apologize if my wording made you feel that you had to like manics to vote. :) Are you reasonably familiar with them? Can you recognize (and explain, if necessary) the differences between Battle Garegga, Dodonpachi, and Giga Wing? More importantly, have you played and achieved familiarity with most of the other (non-manic) games on the Top 25 and Honorable Mention lists? If your specialty is older shooters, I don't mind you voting if you know your stuff.

I've only had a chance to play Neo-Contra's second stage. Based on that experience and the short videos I've seen of other stages, I call it eligible.

Just a few quick questions. Since Ikari Warriors is OK, I'm assuming Heavy Barrel and Shock Troopers 1+2 are eligible?

How about games like Cabal, Blood Bros. and Nam-1975?

If voting for Psyvariar, do I need to specify Medium Unit or Revision? I've seen some people have already voted and just said 'Psyvariar'.

Easier answers first:
Heavy Barrel, Shock Troopers, and Shock Troopers 2nd Squad are eligible for votes this year.
Please specify precisely which Psyvariar game you mean, for example, Psyvariar Revision. -- I spoke in error. While stating precisely which game you mean is always a good thing, it isn't strictly necessary here. Votes for Psyvariar, Psyvariar Medium Unit, or Psyvariar Revision will all be counted together.

I could never figure out what to call the specific category of games that includes Blood Brothers and Nam-1975. Do you have a good name I could use?
Sorry to disappoint, but I would prefer you not to vote for these games this year. The addition of pitch (to yaw) for aiming makes the games, even if achieved on sprite and tilemap hardware, effectively experiments in the third-person shooter form that would eventually lead to, for example, Max Payne and Gears of War. Rail shooters are absent from voting for this same reason (pitch + yaw aiming).


2009-04-15 at ~2:20 AM GMT -- Updated the reply to MadScientist about Psyvariar voting.

[Mortificator]

Do I have to like shmups to vote?

[ST Dragon]

What about Raiden Project [PS-1] which includes Raiden 1 & 2? If I want to vote specifically for Raiden 2, do I vote for the whole compilation or for Raiden 2 [PS-1] ?

And if you want to vote for Raiden Project as a whole, does it count as one game or two in the voting system?

[Ed Oscuro]

NAM 1975 and Cabal are called "carnival shooters"

Sometimes, you even get a duck or teddybear.

[Herr Schatten]

What about Raiden Project [PS-1] which includes Raiden 1 & 2? If I want to vote specifically for Raiden 2, do I vote for the whole compilation or for Raiden 2 [PS-1]?

You can't vote for compilations. In your example, you'd vote for Raiden 2 specifically, much in the same way you could vote for Zanac Neo, but not for Zanac x Zanac. Or for R-Types instead of any single R-Type of your choice.

my only suggestion for this year's poll would be to only allow people one vote, and to stick with it.

While this suggestion is tempting, it would take too much effort to enforce. It would also need to be explicitly declared beforehand, lest empty posts labeled "Placeholder Vote" become a user's actual vote. Sorry, not this year.

I agree. Additionally, I doubt there would be less list-editing and strategic voting. People would just edit their lists offline and post it at the latest date possible, which would mean we'd have no entertaining and inspiring lists to read in the meantime.

[VorpalEdge]

which would mean we'd have no entertaining and inspiring lists to read in the meantime

if you find others' lists inspiring, you're doing something wrong

...

yeah, i can't see the point of enforcing a no-edits rule

[Herr Schatten]

if you find others' lists inspiring, you're doing something wrong

Not inspiring for my vote, but inspiring in the sense of being reminded to re-play some old favourites which haven't seen a lot of playtime lately or, to a lesser extent, to try out some obscure lesser known games which might pop up.

[DEL]

incognoscente wrote;

Herr Schatten wrote:
In the last years, we always had a rush of new members specifically signing up to cast their vote, who were never seen again after that. Is there any way to prevent this?

I understand the concern, but I think we must be careful not to choose an easy but overly exclusive rule. For example, your suggestion elsewhere that users be registered for a specified number of months sounds good in the context of the forum, but I encourage you to imagine if bloodflowers, DEL, Icarus, or Mills just registered. Are you certain you want to exclude their vote? They might be new, but their level of experience and knowledge would surely add value to the final list.

I see no problem with people registering to vote and disappearing. If you want to view an experienced list - you can. Just view Icarus' or bloodflowers lists and skim over the rest, if you so choose.
The overall result is always skewed towards general release games like Ikaruga and Gradius V, due to the fact that this is how a lot of people find the genre for the first time. I always check out the rarer titles on players' lists.

[Zaarock]

From the voting thread rules:

as a general guideline: voters should be familiar with 80% or more of the games on previous years' Top 25 lists. Furthermore, they should be equally familiar with 70% of the games on previous years' Honorable Mention lists.
--
And what constitutes "familiar?" Basically, having played it enough to understand the gameplay mechanisms that make it unique, fun, historically important, and/or any number of other things you might take as helping define "top."

So, I take it that you must at the very least have played 80% of the top 25s and 70% of the honorable mentions? I was wondering because I dont have that high percentages (mostly due to not having say, a japanese ps2 or saturn, etc.) Sorry if youve already tried to handle this issue as much as you could