A sad conclusion

thefox74 · Post by **thefox74** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:54 pm

Yesterday, while playing Gradius V for a while I suddenly came to a conclusion......I suck at shmups! I mean, after spending over a hundred hours on Gradius V, I still usually die when the spider between the two walls shows up. This is sad. I have played Cyvern for who knows how many times and still, I die at the end of level 2.
This, in stark contrast to my teenage years in which I could play Datastorm till I fell asleep because I was just that good. I remember finishing Raystorm on 1 credit.
Do more people find that over the years their skills have completely abonded them?

SuperGrafx · Post by **SuperGrafx** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:56 pm

thefox74 wrote:Yesterday, while playing Gradius V for a while I suddenly came to a conclusion......I suck at shmups! I mean, after spending over a hundred hours on Gradius V, I still usually die when the spider between the two walls shows up. This is sad. I have played Cyvern for who knows how many times and still, I die at the end of level 2.
This, in stark contrast to my teenage years in which I could play Datastorm till I fell asleep because I was just that good. I remember finishing Raystorm on 1 credit.
Do more people find that over the years their skills have completely abonded them?

When I got back into shmups a few years ago, I did notice that my skills were lacking compared to when I was younger. But, you adjust with practice. I'm not saying that I can 1cc all my old favorites, but it's just a matter of reacclimating yourself to the genre.

Ord · Post by **Ord** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:59 pm

I haven't played any shmups in about three weeks. I played Battle Bakraid last night and I was shockingly bad! I guess it is just practise, but as long as you are enjoying it then who gives a toss.

D · Post by D » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:13 pm

I think it's all about age as well (for me)
I am too old to play Raiden Fighters, it's too hectic. 31,5 years old
I will not yet allow myself to admit that I suck though.
Surely I am above average

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:25 pm

I've been wondering about the age thing, myself. One of the reasons I "rediscovered" shmups was concern over my visual abilities.

I know that one of the reasons I have yet to 1cc Perfect Cherry Blossom is because, though I've logged something like 85 hours into the game, those hours are spread out. I need to stop worrying about my physical abilities so much, and work on my discipline.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:49 pm

I am pretty sure I was better at games when I was younger than today, though I don't think it has much to do with age (I am just 23), I think it's more because when I was 14, I could easily spend 50 hours per week playing games. Nowadays I am lucky if I can spend 50 hours per MONTH

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:51 pm

We've already had pretty detailed discussions about what it takes to get good at shmups, could someone link the thread?

If you're not interested in getting good but rather having a group 'hooray, we suck!' type discussion, well, go ahead, but it's pointless and even a bit self-destructive.

Can we stop vaguely titling threads, btw? I don't think it'd be an abuse of mod's powers to rename things to reflect what they contain, also...

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:02 pm

Neon - Did you need to read the thread?
Did you need to get offended by its existence?
Would it be so bad to leave the modding to the mods?

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:08 pm

Well, he sorta had to read at least part of the thread to figure out what it was about (due to the vague subject)

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:12 pm

You have a point, there.

It just seemed to me that at least some people were interested in the thread, and were having a negativity-free discussion, and then things got not-so-negativity free.

ghibli99 · Post by **ghibli99** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:12 pm

I'm with you, man. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say I suck, but I'm certainly not as good at them as I used to be when I played them religiously back around my HS years (for me, that's 1988-1992, which puts my age at 31 (32 next month, yikes)). I do remember one of my friends back then being a bit of a Rainman when it came to shmups, though... the guy had amazing reaction time and the ability to tap the fire button at a ridiculously fast rate. I hated it, because he'd come over and somehow 1cc stuff like TF3, Truxton, etc. with just a couple plays. Meanwhile, I'd be struggling with the later levels. They were his genre, but he didn't realize it. He just liked playing them from time to time.

WarCheese · Post by **WarCheese** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:02 pm

Hello all:

There seems to be an optimal time for me when I take a break from shmup, I actually get better. When I actually break from it for longer than that optimal time, my skill gets rusty...

I have only gotten to level 4 twice on one credit in DOJ. Both times, I put away the game for at least a few days, and then got back at it and got my best performance. Any subsequent plays kill my record.

Cheers.

WarCheese

subcons · Post by **subcons** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:10 pm

What version of Gradius V were you playing?

I used to own a US copy. That got stolen with all my other PS2 shooters a while back and I replaced it with a Korean version. WAY harder than the US release. I'm actualy thinking about selling it and going with a cheapo' US one agian. Simply more enjoyable with my inferior skills.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:18 pm

You sure the default difficulty wasn't placed higher or something, or that you played differently and somehow got the rank angry at you? Seems odd that it'd be that much harder, it's the first I've heard of it...

Fenrir · Post by **Fenrir** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:19 pm

I've looped Gyruss almost 3 times with a single cc when I was a kid. In an arcade, to boot. I now can barely loop it more than once. Yeah, aging is bad for shmups and time reduces drastically

OneEyedJack · Post by **OneEyedJack** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:33 pm

I am MUCH better at games than when I was a kid. MUCH better.

Stormwatch · Post by **Stormwatch** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:35 pm

D wrote:Surely I am above average

Yeah, nowadays most gamers are wimps that can't handle any shmup.

And stop calling me Shirley.

Ex_Mosquito · Post by **Ex_Mosquito** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:33 am

I dont see how you can get worse with age, surely with experience under your belt you'd be better? Sure, reflexes get slower with age but in shooters they are not a major requirement, creative ideas and a gameplan and acurrate execution go alot further.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:53 am

I'm pretty terrible at shmups as well. The only shmup I can 1CC that was released this century was (NOT ZERO GUNNER 2 BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL RELEASE DATE WAS 2000 WHICH WAS NOT THE YEAR OF THE NEW MILLENIUM) The Embodiment of Scarlet Devil.

Zweihander · Post by **Zweihander** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:53 am

I haven't played Ikaruga in a few weeks... I love the game and hate it at the same time. It's an abusive relationship...

rib · Post by **rib** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:56 am

i absolutelly feel the same as i had the same problem with gradius v and ultimatelly every other shmup more or less.
after a playing it for more than 30 times and using all the continue i still just managed to get killed by the cage boss.
sad is the right word in this case and the only thing that keeps me from loosing all my hope with shmups is that i tell myself that if i would have a tated tv and a hori arcade stic instead of a pad i would be much better but you know the true and its not the age!
my skill works against logical learning curves, it increases fast at the beginning but then begins to decrease unstopable, this includes any game but is only noticeable in games you need to get better as you proceed though it which are minly shmups or counterstrike.
most other games become easier as longer you play them because your character becomes stronger in some way.
a good example is that in most shmups i play again after a long time im great at the first few rounds but after a short time my skill goes down to nothing, even the next day play wont be as good as the day before where i started it.
i think its like at the beginning im mostly using spontaneous skills but as i play the game i automatically play more and more calculating and here is the point, i suck at calculated playing and i think those of you who increase their skill are great at calculated playing.

GateofThunderforceIII · Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:06 am

I don't know...I suck at shooters too. Probably my peak is reaching the 4th level on DDPDOJ on 1 credit like someone else in this thread. But it seems that the more I play DOJ (or really Cave games in general), the slightly better I get with everything else. I can swear that playing Ibara improved my Garegga game a bit, also.

But then again, I toyed with Arrow Flash about a couple weeks ago and this is what happened:

(During the first level)
Arrow Flash: Here.
Me: Huh? What's this?
Arrow Flash: It's your ass, son!!!!!
Me: Oh yeah...ouch!!

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:07 am

Ex_Mosquito wrote:I dont see how you can get worse with age, surely with experience under your belt you'd be better? Sure, reflexes get slower with age but in shooters they are not a major requirement, creative ideas and a gameplan and acurrat execution go alot further.

Ha, nicely put. Plus, as I get older and the reflexes diminish, I'll probably turn more and more to memorizers. Perhaps I'll make it my goal to 1cc R-Type.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:38 am

Ex_Mosquito wrote:I dont see how you can get worse with age, surely with experience under your belt you'd be better? Sure, reflexes get slower with age but in shooters they are not a major requirement, creative ideas and a gameplan and acurrat execution go alot further.

I think thats the difference between being a gamer as a kid and an adult. I'd say that I'm better now than I was as a kid, being that I'll be better at pretty much any game I pick up when I start to play it. I know I didn't have half the skill I have now where I could pick up a game and do decently on the first few tries. My comprehension and understanding has increased considerably. As a kid, memorizing paths and things in games wasn't a big deal, I just wound up playing the games more and it taking me longer to do the same thing.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:50 am

I like how Neon put it, self-destructive.

You know when you see world record replays, you are only seeing that world record replay. You don't see the countless hours and dedication needed to get there.

But hey, if you think that you can't, then you never will. And lets be realistic here. If you play a game for 30 minutes once a month, never think about what you need to do to improve, and push yourself, you will suck ass.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:05 am

It's of my opinion that no matter how good you are, there will always be someone better than you, even if your handle is VTF-INO or even Ben Shinobi for that matter.

I've always played shmups with the idea that I will always be challenged and put to the test in terms of my gaming skill. Even if I've practiced a thousand times in a shmup, and get a reasonably high score as a result, there's always the possibility of failure.

When my ship crashes, all that tells me is that I have much to learn, not that I suck, but that I have the capacity to improve. More gamers should think in these terms. When you lose, it isn't because you're a loser, it isn't because you suck. You lose because you don't know what to anticipate or how to deal with the next enemy wave.

Eps · Post by **Eps** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:05 am

Hmm, this thread appears to be veering dangerously close to "shoot-em-ups as a metaphor for life" territory

I have relatively recently got back into shoot-em-ups. Not recently enough not to have been lurking on here for a while before I registered, but recently enough that it's fair to say my skills have not yet recovered, or anything near. Can't even blame the equipment; I have a TATEd monitor and a nice joypad. A stick would be nicer, but it wouldn't make a difference right now, because the reason I'm dying in the games right now isn't because of the difference in accuracy and response between a nice stick and a pad. It's because, shall we say, I need to put some more practice in.

subcons · Post by **subcons** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:00 am

BulletMagnet wrote:You sure the default difficulty wasn't placed higher or something, or that you played differently and somehow got the rank angry at you? Seems odd that it'd be that much harder, it's the first I've heard of it...

Really? Hmm... I'll have to double check that.

Difficulty was definitely different. I had put in over 20 hours on the US release. I knew the game fairly well and could get pretty far without losing a ship. In the Korean version I couldn't kill the first boss before rotation and I was seeing bullets coming out of the last form of the second boss I hadn't ever seen before.

BUHA · Post by **BUHA** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:40 am

I hadn't played dodonpachi for like 2-3 weeks, and then i finally broke 50 million.

and i also beat my old pac-man score and got 108,880 after not playing it for months!

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:59 am

howmuchkeefe wrote:You have a point, there.

It just seemed to me that at least some people were interested in the thread, and were having a negativity-free discussion, and then things got not-so-negativity free.

I guess I could have phrased it a bit more like Valgar, I'm not so much offended as pointing out the obvious, though.

The mods do a fine job, I was simply suggesting that they (as they have in the past with port announcements etc) occasionally rename such threads to reflect the actual content, seeing as this is becoming kind of an epidemic in the shmups and OT forums. I.e., they could have renamed the 'PSP vs. DS' thread 'Stupid Bullshit' and saved everyone a lot of time

I hadn't played dodonpachi for like 2-3 weeks, and then i finally broke 50 million.

and i also beat my old pac-man score and got 108,880 after not playing it for months!

Oh, don't encourage people.

I've noticed this in a few cases with myself as well, it means either your plan was poor (and you forgot it) and you were setting up arbitrary goals for yourself which actually decreased your performance (and forgot them). It's always better to play things when not frustrated by a lack of progress. Congrats on the new scores.

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A sad conclusion

A sad conclusion

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