RQ: What's the advantage of suicide in Border Down??....

[dave4shmups]

I just got this game yesterday and I love it! I know that each border is harder then the one before it, so what's the advantage of suicide in this game? Couldn't you just conceivably play through the whole game on the same border?

[Ord]

Hi Dave
this might help
http://www.classicgaming.com/shmups/rev ... index.html
but it's nothing compared to Rando's great stratagy that was on the old boards.
Man i'm going to have to pay Rando to write some reviews or stratagys for my site cause they are simply amazing!
I think there is also some not bad faqs in gamefaqs.com that answer your question.

[Zach Keene]

but it's nothing compared to Rando's great stratagy that was on the old boards.

It's still here.

[Ord]

but it's nothing compared to Rando's great stratagy that was on the old boards.

It's still here.

Can't see the forest for the trees....

[dave4shmups]

Wow, a FAQ from the old forum that actually survived! Thanks so much, I'm printing this sucker out now!

[Randorama]

Thanks for appreciating my stuff, i'm glad to be of service.
About the actual request: the ST is tailored after a score-centric approach, whereas bordering down at the right moment will make things easier and less score-focused. In short: every time you border down, you will be closer to the end of the play, but difficulty will also lower. Since, the rank is based on your survival time, the earlier you border dwon, the better. The trick is actually starting at the green border and then bordering down during this stage at least once, and repeat the operation for every stage, as soon as you can. Example: you start at the green border, then border down to red, start the second stage at yellow (if you get the norm clear!), border down immediately, etc. Since you border down at the beginning (very low survival time), the rank will lower a lot. With this trick, you can enter the last stage at a pretty low rank level (roughly 50%), which makes the game quite more manageable (at 90+%, it gets pretty hairy).

[dave4shmups]

Thanks Randorama, that explanation is actually a lot clearer then the one in the FAQ!

[Darkcomet72]

. Example: you start at the green border, then border down to red, start the second stage at yellow (if you get the norm clear!), border down immediately, etc. Since you border down at the beginning (very low survival time), the rank will lower a lot. With this trick, you can enter the last stage at a pretty low rank level (roughly 50%), which makes the game quite more manageable (at 90+%, it gets pretty hairy).

I never understood this strat. Dosen't rank have an absolute minimum(and maximum)? Second, for stage 1 at the beginning, shouldn't bordering down do absolutely nothing because the rank is so low?

[Randorama]

Rank isn't linear, but works in function of your survival time. The earlier you die, the slower rank increases. By dying twice at the first stage, you basically tell to the game that you're a wuss, and the increase will be extremely slow. Once you get past the second stage unscathed, the rank will sky-rocket: Consider that you go from roughly 50% to a full 100% rank by doing the third stage (without the boss) alone.

[BulletMagnet]

That really is weird, in my view...if sacrificing a couple of "lives" at the beginning not only makes the game easier (pretty much making up for the advantages that having those lives would have given you), but allows you to score much higher (which can give you some of those "lives" back, to lose again), than playing any other way through the game really doesn't make much sense...a tad restrictive in my view, especially for newer players who don't know how the system works and try to stay on green border most of the time, but that's just me...

[dave4shmups]

I just read in the FAQ that you shouldn't BD until the third stage. *shrugs*

[Rastan78]

That really is weird, in my view...if sacrificing a couple of "lives" at the beginning not only makes the game easier (pretty much making up for the advantages that having those lives would have given you), but allows you to score much higher...

No, scoring high in Border Down requires keeping the rank high. The way Rando described above (dying as soon as possible) is only for playing if you just want to survive the levels without worrying about scoring a lot.

High rank = lots of bullets for high break laser counts. Low rank = small amount of bullets for easy survival/pathetic break lasers/low score.

[BulletMagnet]

You're right about that, but there's also the fact that playing on red border multiplies everything's value...ideally, I guess, if you wanted the very highest scores you'd hafta play on red border from the beginning and stay there, but that's got to be near impossible...

[Rastan78]

Well level 3 green border at full rank is the route with some serious point rewards. Ideally if you start from red border you want to border up to yellow on level 2 and border up to green on level 3. The level 3 boss can give you a 999 break laser for those who have crazy skills. I always botch it myself. You have to 1 life up to that point.

[Darkcomet72]

Basically, If you try to follow a set path, you have to avoid any premature deaths (When you die, but you don't want to die. This is called Dying in other shmups). This is probably the most demanding part of the game(And which is why I almost gave up... almost)

[Randorama]

Wait, the differences between a "safe" and a proper route are pretty big, a complete 6D route, if you play conservatively (to save your ass) can be as low as 70-80M, against the current record of 375M. Most than everything, the key for big scores lies in going from red to green in the first three stages, we're speaking of potentially 110M (30%, roughly) of your score on one boss.
The ohter peak is the fifth boss, and you seriouly want the rank to go up on these parts, if you want to score. Just to give an idea: if you Border Down after the rank has passed the 80% mark (by rouglhly stage 3.1, Near the end of that section), your rank increase will usually be very fast, roughly,10% per section.
Same discourse for all last bosses: you need to fight them at full rank to get the maximum amount of points, which isn't, of course, the easiest of the tasks.
About the "full red border route" : it doesn't work for all other routes (scores are officially differentiated ), but the whole point about going from red to green is that, with full rank, the third boss on the green border is more rewarding. Another peculiar thing is that some stages are pretty useless (2nd on red border, fourth on red border, third on yellow border), because you literally lack any good scoring opportunities. Red border of stage three is good (you can squeeze off about 70M), but it doesn't compare to the said 110M. Another (relatively) small issue is that, you can get a few more points by repeating sessions, something that has a sense as long as you have the rank going up quickly.

As you can see, strategical aspects of Border Down are pretty complex and ductile, by the way

[BulletMagnet]

I'm still not quite down with the notion of using intentional death as a strategy, though at least in BD it's a little more plausible than in something like Garegga, since dying in BD is a means of getting to a completely different area with different stuff, and not solely making the game lighten up on you...guess that's just my own tastes. Definitely unique if nothing else though...

[Randorama]

In Garegga you should actually play in the same way, i.e. let the rank skyrocket and then playing for points....don't forget that Border Down comes 7 years after Battle Garegga, though, and beside that: you don't die, you Border Down

[BulletMagnet]

In Garegga you should actually play in the same way, i.e. let the rank skyrocket and then playing for points...

Well, technically, if I read the previous posts right, in BD you want to lower it at the start and then build it back up until you get to that certain point in stage 3 (am I the only one who thinks that condensing that many points into one boss is a tad unbalanced?)...I haven't "studied" the "best places to die" in Garegga, but I'd guess that the layout for that one is a bit different...then again, in Garegga (IIRC) the rank increases directly depending on how much you shoot, which in BD how long you survive affects how fast the rank goes up, so the inherent setup in itself is different...

...you don't die, you Border Down

You sure that you don't "pass on" or "claim your reward" instead? Ah, euphemisms...

[Randorama]

Well, technically, if I read the previous posts right, in BD you want to lower it at the start and then build it back up until you get to that certain point in stage 3 (am I the only one who thinks that condensing that many points into one boss is a tad unbalanced?)...
[/quote]

no,no, if you play for score, you will aim at Bordering down only in a few spots and keep the rank high: if you want thave an easy time, you will Border Down a lot, especially in the first stage.
My first post was actually a "survival guide/making the game easier" guide, whereas the routes proposed in the ST are the proper method to score (and of course, they are completely different from a survival-based play). Also, one inherent difficulty is that once you start playing for score in Border Down, it's actually one-lifing the game, all the times you Border Down are very strict and you can't make any mistakes.
Roughly speaking, in Garegga you have to place a few deaths (i'd say half of the total extends) in specific points (depending on the ship too, so go figure), but for the rest, you can be a bit more creative.

I haven't "studied" the "best places to die" in Garegga, but I'd guess that the layout for that one is a bit different...then again, in Garegga (IIRC) the rank increases directly depending on how much you shoot, which in BD how long you survive affects how fast the rank goes up, so the inherent setup in itself is different...

yeah, but in both games you're forced to have the rank go up in order to score a lot:if you just keep it low, your scores will be sedated (much more in Border Down, because of said mechanics).

You sure that you don't "pass on" or "claim your reward" instead? Ah, euphemisms...

Eh, it's G.Rev's official definition, don't want to offend them

[BulletMagnet]

Eh, it's G.Rev's official definition, don't want to offend them

Heh, I myself enjoy offending (or at least making meager efforts to offend) developers' sensibilities...you should hear some of the rants I've had on Treasure's bloated storylines. Buddhist doctrines? C'mon, you kill the black and white ships in order for more points, it's more like tic-tac-toe than Tao Te Ching. And no, you DON'T "border down," you DIE! DIE DIE DIE! So THERE!

In any case, thanks for the tips, next time I get the chance to play the thing I'll at least see how some of your survivial tips work...but dang, I don't like playing with one life left, something in the back of my head always tells me I should have saved the last couple that I frittered away...oh well.

[Randorama]

C'mon, you kill the black and white ships in order for more points, it's more like tic-tac-toe than Tao Te Ching. And no, you DON'T "border down," you DIE! DIE DIE DIE! So THERE!

But you don't die, you just switch from controlling in remote one ship to the other, and so [/insert cerebrotic plot which clearly points out G.Rev origins from Taito

At any case, if you, uhm, just play (without minding too much to paths, borders, etc) you shouldn't have any problems, you will probably get 6A as a final stage. Intentional border down in early stages is just a trick to keep rank really low, if for instance you just die at the second stage (lack of skills, i mean), you get almost the same effect...I'd actually say that keeping rank low isn't necessary in the game, if you're not lazy (i.e. you accept to play the game at higher difficulties).
Keeping rank high, on the other end, is necessary to score, and you also have to balance it with the other aspects.

In case anyone wants the "easy" routes, i can post them here, btw.

[BulletMagnet]

But you don't die, you just switch from controlling in remote one ship to the other...

Oh, for the love of...fine then, you BLOW UP. Reeeeal good, I might add.

As for the "easy routes," I wouldn't doubt that I've already traveled 'em and didn't know it, since I'm not very good at the game and "border down" (there! happy? ) pretty frequently...in any case I still can't finish the thing, even if I continue. Ah well...

[Randorama]

As for the "easy routes," I wouldn't doubt that I've already traveled 'em and didn't know it, since I'm not very good at the game and "border down" (there! happy? ) pretty frequently...in any case I still can't finish the thing, even if I continue. Ah well...

Ok, you may want to try this 6A route:

1. G G G/Y 2.G/Y Y Y/R 3.Y/R R R 4.Y Y/R R 5.Y Y Y--> 6A (It should be, not 100% sure).

I know that some parts are scary (whenever you're on the red border), but if you get splatted...ehr, bordered down a lot, the game should not be difficult to handle. The trick is completing the fifth stage at yellow, so you can enter the last stage at green border. Last boss is a wimp, unless you're in the 80%+ rank level

[dai jou bu]

The level 3 boss can give you a 999 break laser for those who have crazy skills. I always botch it myself.

I did that a couple of times successfully. I can never time it just right because I tend to waste more energy than I usually want to once I destroy it and go on to the 2nd form. I guess intentionally bordering down twice during that fight makes me a little edgy.

you BLOW UP. Reeeeal good, I might add.

It lacks the audio confirmation that you did blow up though. In Rayforce, I can hear it loud and clear. Same thing in Raycrisis.

[BulletMagnet]

It lacks the audio confirmation that you did blow up though.

AAAARRRRGGGHHHHH!

[dai jou bu]

AAAARRRRGGGHHHHH!

I guess they wanted you to make your own sound effect for it. ^^

[BulletMagnet]

Well, dang it, they got it.

From now on I'm going to shout "Ka-BOOM!" every time I "border down" when I play that game.

[gameoverDude]

I've dusted off my copy of Border Down, and have gotten things sussed up until the 3rd boss.

I'm gunning for my old 142M record, trying to turn it eventually into 200+. No more messing with the Yellow or Red borders' bosses for ST3.

The first part of the 3rd boss in Green border isn't that hard IMO. It's the second part that gets me at the moment. I'll keep at it.

[EOJ]

I too have picked up BD again. Such a superb game. As much as I love UD, BD is still Grev's best in my eyes. I'm going to try the 'easy' 6A path Rando posted, to try and get a 1CC.