Saturn vs MAME

[antron]

I have noticed that a lot of Saturn Shmups exist in Arcade form, and are supported by MAME.

My goal is to set up an arcade shmup cab. Should I just stick to MAME? Or mod a Saturn and burn isos?

Any pluses for the Saturn?

[Acid King]

Shhh! Don't mention burning ISO's. That's enough to get you lynched around here.

[undamned]

My goal is to set up an arcade shmup cab. Should I just stick to MAME? Or mod a Saturn and burn isos?

Are you related to drsmoo?
-ud

[antron]

Shhh! Don't mention burning ISO's. That's enough to get you lynched around here.

But rom dumps for MAME are OK?

[raiden]

technically speaking, the Saturn path will give you games which look worse, are better playable (more precise controls), but suffer from loading times. The Emulation path will require more money to get acceptable results, give you a much bigger selection of games without loading times, but control precision suffers. Or you could choose either path to find out which games you like best and buy those as PCB, which means a lot of hassle, spending more money (probably), but gives you the best in-game experience.

[antron]

thank you.

If I took the Saturn path I would hack the controllers to my panel. So the controls would be the same. I don't really like gamepads.

I just want to experience something like Radiant Silvergun on a cab. I am an old shoot'em up fan, but I have only played old ones like Truxton.

Sorry about the backup references.

[antron]

I just searched Radiant Silvergun on ebay. $150 with two days to go! $450 buy it now?

I don't want to invest in shmups, I want to play them. Apologies retracted.

Edit:
OK, $220 BIN
$450 for "FACTORY SEALED"

[antron]

Well I am reading now that Radiant Silvergun emulation in MAME is not quite perfect, and it slows down on bosses, even with a fast P4. And the sound is lacking.

If I used a Saturn, I would do a SCART/RGB hack and feed it to the arcade monitor.

I bet that would look pretty good.

[it290]

The ST-V cart of Radiant can be had for cheaper than the Saturn version, however it does lack the Saturn mode found on the console version.

[elvis]

The Emulation path will require more money to get acceptable results, give you a much bigger selection of games without loading times, but control precision suffers.

"control precision suffers" - care to expand on that? I don't quite understand what you mean by this, especially when referring to shmups that were mostly digital input, with the exception of a few that needed spinners or optical gear (both of which are easily implemented).

[it290]

Pretty much any kind of input to a PC, whether through keyboard, a keyboard encoder, or a gamepad, is going to suffer from a little bit more input lag than a PCB, especially when emulation is being used.

edit -- although using a gameport based pad, for example, and running an emulator under a non-multitasking OS like DOS is going to be darn close to the PCB.

[raiden]

the loss of precision is on a time-scale. Looking at the way input is handled and picture is rendered on a PC, especially in emulation, there are several tiny random factors involved. For starters, a cleanly installed Windows XP has about 20 processes running in the background. They usually don´t take up any serious amount of processing power to handle, but you can´t control when they are handled, it might be just the moment an emulator wants to switch its framebuffer, before or after an input signal is checked, and so on. Then there is the problem of signal transformation. When you look at your keyboard cable, you can see clearly there isn´t a wire for each key, like it is present on old consoles or in an arcade setup. Instead, all keyboard inputs are bundled by an algorithm transforming them into an analog signal, which the mainboard decodes to find out which key was pressed. USB joypads function very similarly.
What this boils down to is when you´re trying to play a modern shmup with a lot of bullets, you need a reliable input system to negotiate tight patterns precisely. You need to be sure when you move your hand for a certain fraction of a second, your spaceship will move 9 pixels in one direction, not 6 or 12. And in that regard, emulation fails to deliver. It´s not too bad when you´re playing old shmups with only a handful of bullets, where precision isn´t that necessary. Still, the more directly and reliably inputs are handled in your gaming setup, the more intuitively you can play.

[raiden]

although using a gameport based pad, for example, and running an emulator under a non-multitasking OS like DOS is going to be darn close to the PCB

yeah, but this is pretty theoretical. Remember DOS only gives you 640k of memory? Now look at the size of some romfiles. Modern HD sizes are another issue, if DOS can adress them at all, it´ll only be a fraction of their size. Same goes with modern processor architecture like 64bit, hyperthreading, and you need a fast processor for emulation of modern games.
I´m not so sure the gameport really makes much of a difference, either. Although sharing the connector type with Neo Geo joysticks, PC gameports are designed for analog input mainly. You won´t find a PC joypad without a converter chip inside.

I´m pretty curious to see "the perfect MAME cab", but I doubt it exists. And as old PCBs continue to lose their functionality, this issue worries me quite a bit.

[elvis]

the loss of precision is on a time-scale. Looking at the way input is handled and picture is rendered on a PC, especially in emulation, there are several tiny random factors involved. For starters, a cleanly installed Windows XP has about 20 processes running in the background. They usually don´t take up any serious amount of processing power to handle, but you can´t control when they are handled, it might be just the moment an emulator wants to switch its framebuffer, before or after an input signal is checked, and so on.

Whoah whoah whoah! Slow down there cheif...

1) Modern computers are interrupt driven. When you type on a keyboard, do you see/feel a lag between pressing a key and what aoppears on screen? No. Why? Because inputs and outputs (I/O) request an "interrupt" which stops the CPU doing other things before I/O is complete. This is the same reason why your PC feels slow when the hard disk is busy - I/O overrides CPU. It is NEVER the other way around!

[edit]
Going further, each major device on your PC has an IRQ (Interrupt Request) Address. Notice how your USB, keyboard and video card all have interrupts? Well, this is so that they may interrupt the kernel at any time to do what they need to do free from lag and/or higher priority events.
[/edit]

2) In an emulated setup, you use a dedicated machine. Either strip back windows and turn off services you don't need, or use Linux (or DOS). If you have 30 running programs then turn the suckers off! I use Linux + AdvanceMAME + SVGALib for arcade-perfect (and I mean PERFECT) modelines, which in turn guarantee arcade perfect timing (as the majority of lag/faults people find in MAME is because they force everything to 60Hz with vsync which breaks the game).

3) DO NOT use a keyboard! There are interrupt driven keyboard encoders out there that will not ghost like a keyboard. These have 30+ unique and independant inputs which will not block each other. Here are the two most popular:
http://ultimarc.com/ipac1.html
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/inde ... cts_id=199

4) Likewise, USB inputs are also interrupt driven, non-ghosting, and fast. You will not get input lag with these.

If you have indeed played MAME and felt some sort of laginess, blame the end user and not the system. I can guarantee you I could set up two cabs side by side - one with MAME and one with a PCB, and you couldn't tell them apart. How do I know this? Because I've done it before with folks who preach the same sort of thing as above (particulary picky ones too, like the SRK kids who before seeing a correctly set up emulator had no doubt that it was impossible).

[elvis]

yeah, but this is pretty theoretical. Remember DOS only gives you 640k of memory? Now look at the size of some romfiles. Modern HD sizes are another issue, if DOS can adress them at all, it´ll only be a fraction of their size.

Oh dear....

MAME under DOS uses DOS4GW to address more than 640k of memory. It becomes more and more evident to me you are preaching some serious misinformation here. Please stop.

[raiden]

Modern computers are interrupt driven. When you type on a keyboard, do you see/feel a lag between pressing a key and what aoppears on screen? No. Why?

because the timeframes we are talking about aren´t noticeable in that context. Science tells us conscious reaction time is about 1 second. How could anyone play a shmup when a whole second was needed to react to what is happening on screen? By exercise, the brain learns to handle the challenge subconsciously, bypassing the slow conscious decision-making parts of the brain.

In an emulated setup, you use a dedicated machine. Either strip back windows and turn off services you don't need, or use Linux

this reduces the number to about 12 processes running in the background. Turning off more will render Windows unable to run.
By the way, on a dedicated machine you need a frontend to control everything without keyboard or mouse. Another background process. Linux has background processes as well, btw.

DO NOT use a keyboard! There are interrupt driven keyboard encoders out there that will not ghost like a keyboard. These have 30+ unique and independant inputs which will not block each other. Here are the two most popular:

yeah, I know these things, pretty overpriced joypads if you ask me, as they don´t do anything a modified joypad can´t do as well.

Likewise, USB inputs are also interrupt driven, non-ghosting, and fast. You will not get input lag with these

I´ve used several kinds of USB joypads on several kinds of computers, and input lag is always present. The fact you deny it just tells me you don´t notice it, probably because you spend more time building your systems than actually playing them.

I can guarantee you I could set up two cabs side by side - one with MAME and one with a PCB, and you couldn't tell them apart.

I´d really love to answer that offer, but seing you´re on the other side of the globe, I don´t think it will happen.

MAME under DOS uses DOS4GW to address more than 640k of memory. It becomes more and more evident to me you are preaching some serious misinformation here. Please stop.

So you´re telling me it´s possible to install DOS on a modern computer and still making full use of the hardware? Where do you get your drivers from?

[Thunder Force]

I don't want to invest in shmups, I want to play them. Apologies retracted.

Forum Rules are not pirate-friendly; make sure you have read them.

[zaphod]

Emulator lag is a well documented phenomenon, and while it is mimized by proper setup and good choice of hardware, it is NEVER fully eliminated. nothing beats direct memorymapped IO polled by the real PCB once per vblank.

Timer imprecision is what gets yo umost when playing ashmup on a PC. you try and tap dodge and you either don't go far enough, or go too far.

I've been over it time and again. for many games it's ot enough to worry about. but with some it definitely kills the game.

[elvis]

I´ve used several kinds of USB joypads on several kinds of computers, and input lag is always present.

You're either full of it, or seriously need to invest in some better joypads (or even better, joysticks and proper encoders). The fact that you tell me you DON'T use a proper hardware keyboard encoder immediately raises flags for me that the problem with your setup is apparent. Visit the BYOAC forums and speak with the manufacturers of these devices, and they will show you scientifically collected results as to the true "lag" of these devices, as well as the lag present on real arcade hardware.

The levels of "lag" we are talking about are down to microseconds, and are also present in TTL chips found on arcade PCBs. Your posts above make it sould like there's some sort of horrid half-second lag happening. I say again: if YOUR setup is giving you that sort of lag, the problem lies with YOUR setup. MY setup gives me no measurably different lag to a real PCB, and I've challenged even the fussiest of arcade enthusiests from a wide range of game tastes to see if they can spot the difference between a properly setup emulation box and a real PCB, and thus far they have all failed.

You are what I describe as a "PCB snob". I collect, fix, play and sell PCBs (we have a collection of over 100 at the shop at any one time) and enjoy doing so. But they aren't magically superior to emulation when it comes to input, and all the arguments you've put forward thusfar are urban myths at best.

It is apparent to me your lack of understanding of both how interrupt-driven operating systems works and how MAME works is limiting you in understanding anything different other than your current opinion, and quite frankly short of flying to your location and showing you in person there's not much more I can offer you, so this will be my last post on the matter. At the end of the day as much as I love MAME, one less person playing it is quite probably a good thing.

Emulator lag is a well documented phenomenon

Please, share with me this wealth of documentation. I'm very keen to see scientifically collected evidence to prove this myth.

Again, see the discussion between the encoder manufacturers on BYOAC and the empirically collected data they have compiled to prove it false.

[it290]

this reduces the number to about 12 processes running in the background. Turning off more will render Windows unable to run.
By the way, on a dedicated machine you need a frontend to control everything without keyboard or mouse. Another background process. Linux has background processes as well, btw.

The frontend can easily be killed while the emulation is running and restarted after exit. You're right, even a minimal Linux setup will have a couple of background processes running, but 0.2% CPU load isn't really an issue, especially since the kernel is capable of realtime scheduling for sound and such. DOS is theoretically superior in this respect, though.

I´ve used several kinds of USB joypads on several kinds of computers, and input lag is always present. The fact you deny it just tells me you don´t notice it, probably because you spend more time building your systems than actually playing them.

Agreed, but by and large this lag is caused by the software input layer (ie DirectX). The USB stack is a factor as well. In a dedicated emulation setup, these problems are minimized to the point where they're pretty much not a factor.

So you´re telling me it´s possible to install DOS on a modern computer and still making full use of the hardware? Where do you get your drivers from?

There are video cards that are specialized for this purpose, but all that's really needed is VESA and almost every video card can do a huge variety of video modes this way. Everything else is done in software. Sound can be problematic, but it's trivial to find an old card that has DOS drivers available. USB functionality (which most don't use) can be enabled through DOS as well. That's all you really need.

[elvis]

A question to all those who still think there is lag apparent under Windows, tell me: what do you think about arcade games such as Raiden 3, Homura, or Shikigami No Shiro III? Do you think these have horrific lag? I'd love to hear your input.

[it290]

I haven't played the arcade versions of any of those. But I will say that I do notice slight lag with Mame32, and also when playing Imperishable Night with the DirectInput option turned on - using a USB pad on both. When I turn DirectInput off, the lag goes away. I don't think input lag is a Windows problem per se, but it can certainly accentuate it, and even more so with emulation, since you're going through hardware interrupt -> input layer -> emulation software -> emulated interrupt (normally happens on vblank). That's how I understand it anyway.

[elvis]

Use powerstrip to create proper modes (or double scanrate modes if you play on a 31KHz+ monitor) and turn vsync OFF! Of course forcing your games to match Windows vblank and arcade-non-standard resolutions will cause lag. That's a no-brainer.

Once again I say, use a proper setup and these problems go away. Use a default Windows setup, and you have no sympathy from me. I stick with a custom-built Linux setup for a reason.

[Edge]

I am not much concerned about the technical stuff, I just like to "play" the games.

And I am pretty sure that I don't feel any lag when I play on Mame. I prefer playing shmups in mame, even when I have the console port. Esspecially for highscores. (because I can easily record my plays)

But the point I want to get at is:
Many people here are playing shmups on Mame, and many great scores are made on Wolf Mame. How can they archieve a two loop DDP clear with chaining all enemies with such bad controls? "unprecise controls that kill the game(?)"

Because they never experienced the "100% arcade"-feeling, they don't feel it?

Seriously, if the emu runs correctly, I don't think that there is any noticable lack. At least not noticable for a normal human beeing...

[it290]

Heh, well DDP is a funny one. It's been discussed before, but for some reason DDP in MAME is noticably easier than the Saturn version. I've never played the original PCB so I don't know how well MAME stacks up in that department, but my MAME DDP score is literally twice my Saturn high score, and I play the Saturn version much more often. It's down to timing differences, although the Saturn port is probably more inaccurate in that respect.

Overall, though, IMO the lag issue is probably more relevant with fighting games because of combos and such. Shooters require very precise inputs too, but a couple ms lag doesn't make as much of a difference.

[japtor]

A question to all those who still think there is lag apparent under Windows, tell me: what do you think about arcade games such as Raiden 3, Homura, or Shikigami No Shiro III? Do you think these have horrific lag? I'd love to hear your input.

beat me to it, sorta. well now that i read it i was thinking of something else, the 'lag' with usb/key encoding.

type-x is jvs, it uses usb for input. naomi is jvs as well. im sure everyone has played a naomi arcade game at least, there are a shitload of them and all. and if you play any regular jamma game on jvs cab, you have the same situation. i dont recall any bitching about lag in the many naomi shooters and fighters (among many other games) available, or about newer cabs being laggy.

[raiden]

don´t know about the newer games, but Raiden III and Gigawing Generations were mentioned to have input lag in their arcade versions some time ago. In Raiden III´s case, I can say it´s still present in the PS2 version. Regarding Naomi, I played Virtua Fighter 4 on Naomi 2, and controls were worse than in the PS2 version (but graphics much better, of course). Anyway, USB alone doesn´t cause as many problems as it does in a Windows setup.
You see, I´m really curious about this perfect emulation setup some people mention. Whenever I have the chance to try out something, I´ll do so. I just haven´t seen one yet, only read people claiming their´s is perfect. But I have seen many setups WITH lag, so when talking about an "average" emu setup, it´s safe to assume lag will be present.
Personally, I just don´t want to invest the money into a dedicated emu setup as long as PCBs are easily availlable. Maybe in 5 or 10 years, when most PCBs from the 80s will stop working, but not now.

[99pence]

technically speaking, the Saturn path will give you games which look worse,

In what way do they look worse?

[raiden]

In what way do they look worse?

it´s only small details of course: things like explosions in Dodonpachi, missing cloud transparencies in Strikers 1945 II, effect details in Layer Section... things hardly noticeable while playing.

[99pence]

In what way do they look worse?

it´s only small details of course: things like explosions in Dodonpachi, missing cloud transparencies in Strikers 1945 II, effect details in Layer Section... things hardly noticeable while playing.

I get ya.


Cheers.