Extron Emotia - Downscaling from PC to TV, anyone else using a similar setup?

[Shogun]

Hi all, I got a good setup going downscaling my PC from 480p to 480i to play later gen emulators. Its been mainly PS1, and PS2 so far and its working great. Its like the best of both worlds with the clarity on the CRT with the enhancements of the emulators. I was curious if anyone else is doing something similar? It seems most people just use emudriver to play earlier gen emulators but for those I just use my Mister FPGA. I tested briefly with switch emulation (Aleste Collection) as well and that looked good even in 16:9.

I just thought I'd write a few notes about the experience. I first tried to convert with an HD Fury 2 but I think the sync wasn't working correctly and almost half the screen was cut off vertically. The Emotia I'm using is the first one. It tends to emit glowing vertical elements on the right side of my screen when transitioning but they go away pretty quick. No amount of stretching or moving the image hides this. Could also just be my pc as well. The emotia's screen controls are limited but I'm filling most of the screen with the displayed image. I haven't messed with 240p much. I'm not sure what to try and also the emotia's 240p output isn't that great. It makes me wonder if I were to try a modern pixel game if outputting to 480i would be better? Are there any resources for modern 2D games that actually use 240p assets so it would work on a CRT?

My setup is as follows:
Nvidia GPU HDMI out > Portta HDMI to VGA converter > Extron Emotia > Svideo into tv.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

The PC/Steam port of Crisis Wing has support for 320 x 240p output via vga. Plus CW has tate option as well.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[vol.2]

Can I assume you have exhaustively read Fudoh's pages? https://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

[Fudoh]

refer to MarcoRetro's videos for EVERY single available option you got today.
https://www.youtube.com/@MarcoRetro316

480i is no alternative for pixel based graphics. Excellent options are the RT4K (too expensive though for just that), the RT5X and the OSSC Pro. If you have some money to spare the conversion to 240p is the easiest part today. The harder part is to convert the output signal to whatever kind of signal you need on your display's end. All the newer machines will outupt 240p to HDMI, which you can easily convert to VGA or component (on the OSSC Pro you can use a dedicated RGBHV output board and even an additional add-on for RGBs Scart output). For composite or s-video you need a dig a little deeper though: I don't think anybody offers the Mike Chi-designed VGA2NTSC boards right now. Wakabavideo offers a small HD15 to svideo box, which is working (if I remember correctly).

[orange808]

Looks an OSSC Pro with analog output and case for the board will be about $800usd for Americans?

[Bassa-Bassa]

Are there any resources for modern 2D games that actually use 240p assets so it would work on a CRT?

My setup is as follows:
Nvidia GPU HDMI out > Portta HDMI to VGA converter > Extron Emotia > Svideo into tv.

There are tools to output 240p from Windows. You mentioned CRT Emu Driver (which is what everybody uses today for that purpose, even if an ATI card is needed), but check Win Modelines or CRU for Nvidia.

[Shogun]

Can I assume you have exhaustively read Fudoh's pages? https://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

I have yea. I'm aware of the 240p fix for the extron but those VSC and RGB units are over a $100. Its hard to justify buying that just to shift my output vertically 1 line. I suppose I could sell the extron and buy the VSC/RGB combo but I'll keep messing with what I have for now. It was just a fun project using what I already have. My extron has been collecting dust for years.

There are tools to output 240p from Windows. You mentioned CRT Emu Driver (which is what everybody uses today for that purpose, even if an ATI card is needed), but check Win Modelines or CRU for Nvidia.

My understanding is modern Nvidia gpus can't output interlaced so I'm guessing you mean come up with a custom res in CRU to bypass the emotia for 240p to the tv?

[Bassa-Bassa]

^Yeah, though you'd still need to do an RGBHV to S-video conversion, since seems your TV doesn't support RGB?

Also, I'm not sure if modern Nvidia might have other limitations for custom video mode generation. And then there's the issue of the DAC device - you need to make sure yours is going to work with 240p. It's all much easier with an ATI card with analog video out, though it may be too old for some games. It really depends on what you want to play. Personally, if it's S-video display the best my CRT does, I'd rather use a modern flat screen and some shader.

[vol.2]

Also, I'm not sure if modern Nvidia might have other limitations for custom video mode generation. And then there's the issue of the DAC device - you need to make sure yours is going to work with 240p. It's all much easier with an ATI card with analog video out, though it may be too old for some games.

Yeah, the ability to output 240p of the video card is going to be dependent on the specific card you are using and I believe that, if you are using CRU, it also makes a difference exactly which drivers (from the video card manufacturer) you have installed, so you have to pay attention to that too.

Personally, if it's S-video display the best my CRT does, I'd rather use a modern flat screen and some shader.

A well calibrated TV will display s-video indistinguishably from RGB at a normal viewing distance. Yes, if you snap a macro of the raster from 6 inches away and compare screenshots you can absolutely see the difference, but from 6 feet away on the couch you will not.

The real leap comes from composite to s-video. If you have at least that available to you, there is no reason not to use it.

Then again, some would also say that composite is plainly "good enough" and even preferable to RGB for certain nostalgic reasons, especially on older sets with a softer glow that completely mask color fringing and dot crawl. To each their own.

[Harb1911]

My new discovery in downscaling and probably the most affordable option is: Kramer VP-747 as 288p/240p downscaller optionally chained with VP-438 as HDMI input interface and HDMI audio de-embeder/stereo DAC and Extron Rgb 580rxi (any Extron RGB interface will do the job) as RGBHV to RGBs. VP-438 offers 480i/576i RGBHV/HDMI output out of the box in case if it's needed. VP-747 does custom timings and has two separate video outputs (analogue+digital) operating independently ("preview" and "program") so you can play with custom resolutions without losing OSD functionality if messing modes, also has built-in LCD + Lan interface that can be managed trough PC software. VP-747 can be found on ebay for under 100$ which is a complete steal for video broadcast class pro gear and VP-438 can go as low as 20$.

Spoiler

https://postimg.cc/gallery/GDrkPhk

[orange808]

If I remember correctly the VP-747 was one of the Realta machines. Should be about four frames of lag.

[Harb1911]

I didn't feelt any lag when I connected my av famicom and og xbox directly through it. probably could be worse if you activate it's geometry manipulation stuff. also I don't have any idea who is Realta.

[orange808]

I didn't feelt any lag when I connected my av famicom and og xbox directly through it. probably could be worse if you activate it's geometry manipulation stuff. also I don't have any idea who is Realta.

The Realta was an HQV video processing chip that continued the Silicon Optix line of video processing. Realta was the premium offering.

I don't know of any Realta machines with variable latency. It should have a concrete processing path, so the latency is baked in. I recall it was pretty high for gaming purposes--about four frames. Looks like you have the high end model of the Realta Kramers with the full switching, but the processing is the same as the less expensive Kramer Realtas. (I think those were the VP-72x line (?), but it's been a long time.)

In a partnership with Calibre, Reon (a cheaper HQV chip) was used later on to make a different line of Kramer machines (and identical Calibre boxes) with less latency when the pan, warp, and rotate features are not used. Unfortunately, the Reon is not programmable (no downscaling) and the company didn't deliver the low latency the documentation and marketing promised. I understand Calibre customised the software (beyond the turnkey offering from the chip manufacturer) to bypass some latency in the processing path for the Calibre Reons, but that work wasn't done with for these earlier Realta machines.

[Shogun]

There are a couple of quirks with the Extron Emotia. First and most notable is that only in some scenes there is like this rainbow wavy line effect going across the screen. It seems most notable in dark scenes. If I jiggle the power cord it causes this effect to flicker. Maybe something is going on with the original power supply. Not sure if I can pop it open and repair some aging components there if that would help. I can find some posts of people referring to "solarization" I'm wondering if this is the same thing.

The other quirk is while the horizontal adjust is a smooth adjust the vertical is a notched adjust for some reason. It doesn't allow you to dial things in 100%. Its a shame the controls didn't have both horizontal and vertical size adjustments as well, there is only horizontal size. The adjustments is a minor gripe though.

[vol.2]

Maybe something is going on with the original power supply. Not sure if I can pop it open and repair some aging components there if that would help. I can find some posts of people referring to "solarization" I'm wondering if this is the same thing.

90s Extron devices can suffer from bad electrolytics, so maybe. I had to recap the power supply inside an Extron VSC700 (two of them actually), so it's not impossible.

The other quirk is while the horizontal adjust is a smooth adjust the vertical is a notched adjust for some reason. It doesn't allow you to dial things in 100%. Its a shame the controls didn't have both horizontal and vertical size adjustments as well, there is only horizontal size. The adjustments is a minor gripe though.

It's a shame it isn't a continuous pot, but it should be enough for you to kind of split the difference pretty good with most of your signals, in combination with the TV's internal adjustments.

[Shogun]

I found a good video where they show the color anomalies with the Emotia that I'm trying to describe: https://youtu.be/TjkG0D8V8O0?si=KCVObMpj5s7qjuYJ&t=694

It starts at the linked time, then goes into how it appears in color bars, then shows it in Tony Hawk Pro Skater. The example in THPS is what I see most often. It appears in shaded areas as a tinted color. The fact this happened across multiple models makes me think, like in the video, that this is an issue across all the early Emotia units. Either that or they all have a similar component failing. I can get this tinted coloration to change when jiggling the power supply din plug in the back of the Emotia which initially made me think it was my original power supply, but in the video linked above he is using a third party new power supply and still has the issue.

[vol.2]

I found a good video where they show the color anomalies with the Emotia that I'm trying to describe

This video pretty much tracks with my experience of using my Super Emotia, and reminds me why I sold it. It was never the best picture quality at the end of the day, and it isn't going to hold up really well if you have high quality video monitors that can reveal the issues. It's absolutely fine if you have just any old consumer TV though.

More than just the glimmering, I think you can see pretty clearly that the GBS image quality is a lot sharper to the point that you can make out much of the writing that is illegible with the Emotia.

The reason, I think, that people are still buying the Emotias is because they don't really take any work to setup.

[Shogun]

I might sell mine with the goal of improving picture quality. Not sure what would be a simple-ish high quality replacement.

TVONE Corio2 - Cheap but requires a lot of setup. Picture quality is pretty good from what I hear? Not sure if you have to transcode.

OSSC Pro + Analog output - Seems to be the defacto recommendation. Pretty expensive as a downscaling option though.

Morph4k - Cheaper than OSSC Pro and I don't know anything about it. Might still need to invest in analog output.

The output on these is not very friendly towards 15khz CRT. I'm using S-Video out on the extron right now. I only have HDMI to VGA converters and I don't think there are any good transcoders for s-video or component at the moment. They all seem to have random chips or issues now.

[orange808]

There is no easy, "stand-alone", low lag (less than one frame), and "plug and play" svideo/component 240p/480i downscaler video processor with frame lock. That machine doesn't exist.

[Shogun]

There is no easy, "stand-alone", low lag (less than one frame), and "plug and play" svideo/component 240p/480i downscaler video processor with frame lock. That machine doesn't exist.

I would consider less than 2 frames low lag. I don't know what frame lock is. All I'd be downscaling is my PC's 480p signal to 480i and 240p.