Convince me to keep DDP DOJ.

[Devil REI]

You may have seen over in the Trading Station that I'm currently selling a bunch of stuff on Ebay. I'm still going through my games and other items, looking for things I never play and don't anticipate playing again in the future to sell. I've started thinking... why am I still holding onto DDP DOJ?

As much as I love Cave, this game has never, ever clicked with me. In fact, I daresay it's probably my least favorite Cave shooter. Don't get me wrong - the aesthetics and enemy shot patterns/designs are fantastic, but the scoring system has always been a major turn-off. I really dislike how unforgivingly strict it is, and how it requires such severe, down-to-the-millisecond rote memorization and timing to actually play and score with some degree of skill. To me, that just isn't fun at all.

I still find myself playing ESPGaluda and Mushihimesama, but I haven't so much as looked at DDP DOJ in over a year. I've given it several chances to hook me, since a lot of other Cave fans absolutely SWEAR by it, and every time I wind up feeling frustrated and angry - and not the good sort of anger a really fun, intense shooter generates.

I'm really close to just selling this off, but there's still this little voice in the back of my head asking me to just give it another go, maybe you'll enjoy it more this time around and you'll finally "get it." (Of course, there's another little voice saying, "hold onto it, it'll double in value in two more years!" but I'm trying to ignore it.) I still don't know what to do with it, at this point.

So maybe you guys can help. Give me some suggestions on how to better enjoy DDP DOJ, or give me good reasons as to why I should keep this game. (Or conversely, you're free to PM me asking me to sell it to you )

[Xexyz]

There's no point in us trying to convince you to keep a game you obviously dislike. Just sell it. I've got the same opinion towards the game as you do. It's too strict and hard core for me to enjoy, and I'm loving Caves other PS2 offerings.

[BulletMagnet]

Well, if you don't like the game enough to play it then there's not a whole lot of a reason to hang onto it "just to have it"...of course, your main gripe is with the scoring system, and I can definitely understand that, but I also tend to think that it, along with most Cave games, still gives you plenty to deal with just to finish the thing, even if you pretty much ignore the score, although others disagree with me.

In any event, I don't know whether you've taken advantage of simulation mode, no bullet mode, or the included superplays to get yourself better used to the game, but if you haven't you might want to try those out, they're good for practice. I'll be the first to admit that this game isn't for everyone (when you get right down to it, I really don't think ANY game is universally appealing, but especially one as challenging as this one), so I don't think you need to be "ashamed" of yourself for not liking it, or feel like you're missing something. If nothing else, there are plenty of other shmups out there for you to enjoy if this specific one doesn't tickle your fancy.

[Dale]

You should sell it althought you may want to wait for the value to go up before you do.

[Rob]

I've given it several chances to hook me, since a lot of other Cave fans absolutely SWEAR by it

Yeah, a lot of people swear by sucking at Cave games. Enjoyment should naturally amount to a little effort and most people suck at these games. REALLY suck.

I've cleared the first round and sold this twice. I bought it the second time to try the scoring system again. Like you, I don't think it is fun and I don't miss it that much. Though just playing for survival is a fun challenge on its own.

[bay]

I've given it several chances to hook me, since a lot of other Cave fans absolutely SWEAR by it

Yeah, a lot of people swear by sucking at Cave games. Enjoyment should naturally amount to a little effort and most people suck at these games. REALLY suck.

actually this makes me respect and want to play the game more. it makes you realize that it isnt just another sporatic left right up down button masher, you need strategy to make it.

.02$

[system11]

I feel the same way about the game. I got to level 4, twice, by using all my bombs in level 3.

[Rob]

actually this makes me respect and want to play the game more.

Why, because people are unable to put their money where their mouth is? The game is not so hard or complex where enjoyment-derived effort should fall well short of the scoring "cap" (<10%).

Please also note every modern shooter requires some degree (usually a lot) of strategy. That is not unique to this game.

[bay]

actually this makes me respect and want to play the game more.

Why, because people are unable to put their money where their mouth is? The game is not so hard or complex where enjoyment-derived effort should fall well short of the scoring "cap" (<10%).

Please also note every modern shooter requires some degree (usually a lot) of strategy. That is not unique to this game.

ah, that came out a bit too general i guess. modern shooters most definately require strategies to get anywhere, i didn't mean to imply other shooters from this same timeframe don't require them.

i like a challenge, i also like having to adapt to the game and accept my shortcomings in such a way that i know i have to work at getting more proficient at the game in question.

admittably, this game is rediculous at times which leads to frustrations =[

.02$

[Neon]

I've gotten to stage 5.

I think I'm gonna sell it and buy 2 copies of Raiden DX

[sffan]

I like the difficulty of it, which makes it extra special when I actually do get a nice combo + bee. I don't obsess over the scoring, but see I it as a lucky bonus when I do score well.

I also like the difficulty because that makes it a shorter game, and sometimes I'm in the mood for a short, intense shooting experience.

So my advice is to sell the game if you don't like it. Then it will be out of your mind.

[Devil REI]

In any event, I don't know whether you've taken advantage of simulation mode, no bullet mode, or the included superplays to get yourself better used to the game, but if you haven't you might want to try those out, they're good for practice.

Oh believe me, I've spent a good deal of time with all the options and such. If anything, the superplay DVD makes me even colder to the game because I just find myself thinking, "How long and how much would I have to play this damn game to even get HALF this skilled?" I'd rather invest that time in something like Ketsui or ESPGaluda, both of which have scoring systems I find to be more intuitive, easier, and more fun. (For whatever reason, I don't get the same feeling watching ESPGaluda replays.)

Weird thing is, I love Dodonpachi to death. I've really been trying to figure out exactly why I like DDP so much and dislike DDP DOJ, and I can't really put it into words. :\

[ptoing]

I like both DDP and DOJ. But yes DOJ is way more anal about scoring and hence quite a bit more challenging. I guess this is what puts many people off about it.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

I don't like the scoring system on DOJ either. It is annoying not being able to play the game and make use of the scoring system. Why did they even bother to make a scoring system that so few players could get any use of? I'm honestly starting to like Psikyo games more than anyones simply because of the easy to understand scoring. Can't chain (DDP,DOJ) but collecting a flashing coin (Gunbird 2) isn't too big of a deal. At least in that situation it's obvious what went wrong. Take Mars Matrix for example which was one of my favorites that I've found just as difficult to chain on. I like eveything about the game except the scoring system. But it's near impossible to keep a chain going in that one also. At least the pachis offer some satisfaction with being able to make short chains and getting the multiplier on the bee icons. I don't understand why everyone says the pachis have to be restarted if the chain is broken. A missed scoring opportunity seems to be the same to me regardless of the game. Gigawing 2 for example if I miss triggering a volcaonon thats lost points right. Which means I'd have to restart the game and attempt trigger it again. These games are already difficult enough completly ignoring score. Too many bs scoring systems out there.

Sorry for going off topic. If you don't like the game don't keep it. It will just mean more frustration in the long run. I won't deny that I like DOJ alot but only if I ignore the scoring and play for survival. DDP is more fun to me because the extends aren't as difficult to get, chaining is more reasonable, and it's fun to make use of the bomb multiplier bonus. Even if the music in DDP is terrible.

[doctorx0079]

If there is any remote possibility you will ever want to play this game again, keep it. Only sell it if you are absoposolutely sure you will NEVER play it again. Because you will probably not get for it what you originally payed for it. Then 10 years from now you won't be able to play it when you want to. I learned all this the hard way with Super Metroid, Dragon Warrior III, Zelda 3, Super Mario 3 etc. etc.

[Rob]

If there is any remote possibility you will ever want to play this game again, keep it. Only sell it if you are absoposolutely sure you will NEVER play it again. Because you will probably not get for it what you originally payed for it. Then 10 years from now you won't be able to play it when you want to.

Silliness, this is a pack rat attitude. Is it really worth keeping something in the off chance we'll want to play it in 10 years? I don't think so. And you're comparing games you were forced to part with (likely) that you liked (guessing, again) with a game this person doesn't really like to start with. I don't miss NBA Live '97. And look how easy it is to play those games you listed, without tracking down physical copies. It could be in 10 years that playing DOJ is a matter of going to some emulation site and waiting a few minutes - maybe the original arcade ROM as well.

[SAM]

The PS2 version with Demo DVD WILL one day worth more than a Cave PCB. Keep it and trade for a PCB later.

[raiden]

The PS2 version with Demo DVD WILL one day worth more than a Cave PCB. Keep it and trade for a PCB later.

these times are over for good:
http://www.siliconera.com/2006/01/16/th ... -reprints/
this should also apply to all who keep Radiant Silvergun as an investment.

Regarding DOJ: the score system didn´t click with me either, and I´ve sold it long ago. However, I´ve noticed an effect of gameplay concepts "clicking" only years after playing a game for the first time. Recently, it happened to me with Mars Matrix. When the game came out, I regarded the handling as too complex and quick to get to grips with. Also sold it long ago. Two months ago, I played it again and it "clicked". Now the game is #1 on my wishlist.
I also played DOJ again after a long break recently, and I had simply ceased caring for a competitive score, which suddenly made the game 3 times as much fun. The patterns also didn´t frighten me as much anymore, after playing Mushihime Ultra they rather seemed peaceful and clearly structured

[Rob]

these times are over for good:
http://www.siliconera.com/2006/01/16/th ... -reprints/
this should also apply to all who keep Radiant Silvergun as an investment.

This is very cool, but I'm not sure they will deal with Japanese imports. Did I miss something?

[chtimi-CLA]

DOJ used to be my least favourite cave game, it only clicked much later.
the comboing isn't as strict as it looks at first, or rather it stops feeling arbitrary over time when you know what you can get away with and what will break your chain. once you get it, and you combo a full stage even once, things get much more interesting.
but it is true DOJ can be especially frustrating, as a beginner you don't even know why your chain broke. you have to accept getting your ass kicked 1000 times in a row to go anywhere in DOJ.

[japtor]

Oh believe me, I've spent a good deal of time with all the options and such. If anything, the superplay DVD makes me even colder to the game because I just find myself thinking, "How long and how much would I have to play this damn game to even get HALF this skilled?" I'd rather invest that time in something like Ketsui or ESPGaluda, both of which have scoring systems I find to be more intuitive, easier, and more fun. (For whatever reason, I don't get the same feeling watching ESPGaluda replays.)

Weird thing is, I love Dodonpachi to death. I've really been trying to figure out exactly why I like DDP so much and dislike DDP DOJ, and I can't really put it into words. :\

i just got galuda, and so i can now say i like both that and ketsui more than doj. the main things i did like about doj are stage 5 and hypers. not that i hate the rest of the game, but its just sorta eh for me. the scoring system doesnt really bother me too much, ive just given in to sucking with it, and have enough enjoyment playing for survival, as opposed to ketsui/galuda where i find it enjoyable to play for points as well.

im not sure whether i like ddp over doj, but one of the things i definitely like about it over doj is the music. i cant stand most of the doj music. stage 5 is awesome, and the boss music is alright, but the rest i could care less for. ddp was cheesy butt rock but it was awesome and somehow just worked.

overall i just sort of have a feeling of indifference for a lot of the game (and hatred for the music), while with ddp i just like more of it.

[GaijinPunch]

"How long and how much would I have to play this damn game to even get HALF this skilled?"

If it makes you feel any better, I asked Zuho how long it took her to clear the 2nd loop of Progear. She just smiled and said, "two years". O_o

[zak]

[Devil REI]

Ehhh, screw it, I've pretty much made up my mind by now that I'm selling it. It goes up on ebay tonight, guys, so if you want it, have at it!

[Triple Lei]

You're DEAD to me, Devil REI!!




(but um... if you ever want to sell Espgaluda, send me a pm, k?)

[Valgar]

"How long and how much would I have to play this damn game to even get HALF this skilled?"

If it makes you feel any better, I asked Zuho how long it took her to clear the 2nd loop of Progear. She just smiled and said, "two years". O_o

Did you ask her to post her scores here?

[TVG]

sell it to someone that will enjoy it.

i like about everything in DOJ, graphics, music and gameplay, but havent played it much since i got the wanted 100m. too damn lazy to flip my TV these days. its sitting there, knowing it will get a lot more playing one day.

yoko shmups rule :p

[doctorx0079]

If there is any remote possibility you will ever want to play this game again, keep it. Only sell it if you are absoposolutely sure you will NEVER play it again. Because you will probably not get for it what you originally payed for it. Then 10 years from now you won't be able to play it when you want to.

Silliness, this is a pack rat attitude. Is it really worth keeping something in the off chance we'll want to play it in 10 years? I don't think so. And you're comparing games you were forced to part with (likely) that you liked (guessing, again) with a game this person doesn't really like to start with. I don't miss NBA Live '97. And look how easy it is to play those games you listed, without tracking down physical copies. It could be in 10 years that playing DOJ is a matter of going to some emulation site and waiting a few minutes - maybe the original arcade ROM as well.

Games take up very little storage space.

[Rob]

Not if you keep everything you might play a decade later.

[GaijinPunch]

Did you ask her to post her scores here?

I think the language barrier is what's scaring her. She mentioned that she spoke zero English, and has never even left Japan. She was very entertaining though. I plan to post a journal of this trip when I get back in a few days.