B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

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Hoagtech
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B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

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I went to calibrate my B&K 467 before hooking up to a tube.

I tested the Heater Voltage on Pin 1 of the connector and was getting really weird readings.

It was 12.4 Volts most of the time even though I had the Heater Voltage knob set to 6.3 Volts. It would erratically change to 3.4V and 24V.

I tried to dial the R16 pot down to get my 12V to 6.3, but it only had a tolerance of maybe 2.5V.

I changed all the capacitors and got great joints on them. I tested continuity in the traces past the fuses.

I didn't do much in diode testing but I wanted to know if anyone had a similar problem and what you might troubleshoot on the BK467 to begin solving it?

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tongshadow
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

Post by tongshadow »

Did you measure it with a true RMS multimeter? The probes must be connected to the H+ and H- pins.
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

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tongshadow wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:05 pm Did you measure it with a true RMS multimeter? The probes must be connected to the H+ and H- pins.
Thats a great question. I use the Klein Tools MM700 Multimeter. I made sure to connect positive to Pin 1 and ground negative to the face of the BK467 according to the instructions.

What meter do you recommend?
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

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Hoagtech wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:39 amI made sure to connect positive to Pin 1 and ground negative
I seem to remember that the 6.3V tube heater supply is almost always AC, at least for regular (non-CRT) tubes. Was you meter set to measure AC or DC voltage?
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

Post by tongshadow »

Hoagtech wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:39 am
tongshadow wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:05 pm Did you measure it with a true RMS multimeter? The probes must be connected to the H+ and H- pins.
Thats a great question. I use the Klein Tools MM700 Multimeter. I made sure to connect positive to Pin 1 and ground negative to the face of the BK467 according to the instructions.

What meter do you recommend?
Thats a good multimeter, so you're fine on that. Try measuring in AC like Unseen suggested.
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

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Unseen wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:48 am
Hoagtech wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:39 amI made sure to connect positive to Pin 1 and ground negative
I seem to remember that the 6.3V tube heater supply is almost always AC, at least for regular (non-CRT) tubes. Was you meter set to measure AC or DC voltage?
This is true. It's like a lightbulb filament basically. Generally in order to know what the voltage actually is, you have to do some maths. Typical supply is something like a squat sine wave with a short duty cycle that is at some DC potential (either positive or negative), and passes through zero volts.

This makes a square wave component and a sine wave component, of which you would have to calculate the RMS voltage of each and then combine them.

I had someone draw me a image to explain this once.

Image
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

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Unseen wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:48 am
Hoagtech wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:39 amI made sure to connect positive to Pin 1 and ground negative
I seem to remember that the 6.3V tube heater supply is almost always AC, at least for regular (non-CRT) tubes. Was you meter set to measure AC or DC voltage?
It is in AC voltage. I like to test my wall current before hand. 121.4 Volts.

Has anyone had a irregular current when testing this device? Or been able to fix one that measured outside its tolerance? Im kinda stumped as I changed every single cap and reflowed most of the board.
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

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Hoagtech wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:18 pm Has anyone had a irregular current when testing this device? Or been able to fix one that measured outside its tolerance? Im kinda stumped as I changed every single cap and reflowed most of the board.

If you look at the waveform in the picture I posted above, you should be seeing something like that coming out of the heater pin on the B&K. You'll need an oscilloscope or a waveform meter to see it, and you will either need the instrument to be battery powered, or your B&K meter to be hooked up to an isolation transformer to take the reading.

If you try to scope it with a scope plugged into the wall, and your B&K plugged into the wall, you'll blow your breaker.

There are a number of cheap battery powered handheld scopes on amazon or wherever that would work for this purpose. You don't need much bandwidth.


To possibly be a little clearer, the reason your multimeter isn't seeing the voltage "normally" is because the shape of the AC waveform and the duty cycle are probably fairly irregular. Most multimeters are relying on typical frequencies and duty cycles to approximate RMS voltages out of an AC sine wave. They are generally not designed to capture arbitrary components and integrate their RMS components.

The heater on a CRT looks like this because they derive the voltage usually from a winding on the flyback or whatever is convenient and doesn't add unnecessary cost to the design.
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

Post by Hoagtech »

I do have a Siglent SDS1202X 200mhz digital oscilloscope. I have not used it yet.

I also have an isolation transformer for my arcades. Before I Set that up (which I might as well). The videos I've seen on calibration were using somewhat typical looking Multimeters and got stable readings.

Why would need an isolation transformer if I can already takes probing from it being powered in circuit? And would the BK467 need to plugged into the isolation and or both my oscilloscope and 467?
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

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Hoagtech wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:19 pmThe videos I've seen on calibration were using somewhat typical looking Multimeters and got stable readings.
If that's true, then one of 2 things is probably true.

1) the B&K device produces a more consistent AC waveform for the heater (probably a 50% duty cycle square wave or something) and your DMM is not "True RMS" and therefore isn't able to properly get the reading

or

2) there's something still wrong with your B&K unit and it's not outputting anything

The solution either way is still to scope the signal and see what's coming out of there. I would start with it on AC coupling, 50us time base, 10V/div and then slowly sweep through the time back to 50ms and see if there's anything there. My money is on something there.
Why would need an isolation transformer if I can already takes probing from it being powered in circuit? And would the BK467 need to plugged into the isolation and or both my oscilloscope and 467?
The isolation transformer would be necessary only if you are using a testing device that is plugged into the wall. In North America, the neutral line is tied to ground in our breaker boxes. On your scope, the negative lead is connected directly to the neutral line in the wall. If you touch the scopes ground clip to the chassis ground of an electronic device connected to the wall, then it creates a ground loop at the 120V potential that neutral is tied to (our breaker boxes are 240ish VAC, with the neutral line split down the middle). So if you do that, you pull the ground to 120V potential and bang. I've done it before and it just tripped the breaker, but it could potentially blow something up.

The exception to this is something that has built-in isolation and is therefore "floating" anyway.

The "best practices" way to do it is to connect the device under test (DUT) to the isolation and not the scope.

If you're using a battery powered testing device like a DMM or a handheld scope, there is no path for ground to travel back to neutral and so is fine. That's more or less why Tektronix made that series of battery powered field service scopes, because a field tech doesn't have access to an isolation transformer usually.
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

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vol.2 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:18 pm
Hoagtech wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:19 pmThe videos I've seen on calibration were using somewhat typical looking Multimeters and got stable readings.
If that's true, then one of 2 things is probably true.

1) the B&K device produces a more consistent AC waveform for the heater (probably a 50% duty cycle square wave or something) and your DMM is not "True RMS" and therefore isn't able to properly get the reading

or

2) there's something still wrong with your B&K unit and it's not outputting anything

The solution either way is still to scope the signal and see what's coming out of there. I would start with it on AC coupling, 50us time base, 10V/div and then slowly sweep through the time back to 50ms and see if there's anything there. My money is on something there.
Why would need an isolation transformer if I can already takes probing from it being powered in circuit? And would the BK467 need to plugged into the isolation and or both my oscilloscope and 467?
The isolation transformer would be necessary only if you are using a testing device that is plugged into the wall. In North America, the neutral line is tied to ground in our breaker boxes. On your scope, the negative lead is connected directly to the neutral line in the wall. If you touch the scopes ground clip to the chassis ground of an electronic device connected to the wall, then it creates a ground loop at the 120V potential that neutral is tied to (our breaker boxes are 240ish VAC, with the neutral line split down the middle). So if you do that, you pull the ground to 120V potential and bang. I've done it before and it just tripped the breaker, but it could potentially blow something up.

The exception to this is something that has built-in isolation and is therefore "floating" anyway.

The "best practices" way to do it is to connect the device under test (DUT) to the isolation and not the scope.

If you're using a battery powered testing device like a DMM or a handheld scope, there is no path for ground to travel back to neutral and so is fine. That's more or less why Tektronix made that series of battery powered field service scopes, because a field tech doesn't have access to an isolation transformer usually.
I tried my best to setup what you recommended. My MM700 Meter says True RMS in it's model name:

Image

But I have yet to use either my Bench PSU or my Oscilloscope and would like to understand their usage.

I threw together an isolation transformer setup using this picture:

Image

Image

I plugged in the Oscilloscope and probed the calibration ring, then hit Auto. TBH, I got a little overwhelmed at this point

Image

I have my B&K 467 on the bench plugged into Isolation. I am trying to run it on these settings, but I don't understand where to start: "50us time base, 10V/div"

I have my probe end and and a gator clamp coming off the probe. There is a 1X and 10X slider on the probe.

Can you give me a pointer on how to adjust time base and 10V DIV?

Finally Do I probe PIN 1 Heater Voltage with the probe and clamps to the side of the metal case?

Here is my setup:

Image
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

Post by tongshadow »

Hook it up to a tube at the lowest voltage setting. I dont think there's anything wrong with the heater, you'll see how the neck should normally glow at 6.3v.
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

Post by vol.2 »

Hoagtech wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 9:51 pm
Can you give me a pointer on how to adjust time base and 10V DIV?

There are three knobs you most need to pay attention to.

1- "Vertical"

The voltage knob just changes the range you are displaying. You want to dial it to somewhere around the voltage range you are looking for. I would expect a 6VAC RMS signal to be something like between 10-30V peak-to-peak, which just means the highest it goes and the lowest it goes in the waveform. I guess you could start lower, like 5V per division and if the wave is off the screen, increase the voltage. Volts per division refers to the individual squares on the scope screen; each box is a division, so changes the volts/div changes the scale.

Another important setting here is the AC/DC coupling setting. On your scope, it's found by pressing the probe number button for each probe. In this case you would press the "1" button to get to that menu. The coupling setting would be the first setting (on the left). Press the button to scroll through the options and/or use the scroll wheel to the upper-righthand side of the screen.

Set it to AC coupling to essential "center' the waveform Vertically around the Zero Volts line on the screen. This is useful because it allows you avoid any DC Offset. DC offset is when you have an AC waveform that is held at voltage level higher than or lower than zero volts.

Take for example a square wave that is 5V peak to peak, but it has a 200V DC offset. In order to see that waveform, you would have to set the volts/div at something sensible, like say 2V/div. However, if you did that, your waveform would be way, way up above your screen because it's floating up at the 200VDC line at its center. So you use AC coupling and it removes the DC offset and just shows you the AC "component" of the waveform.

If you want to see a "DC component," then you put it in DC coupling and you crank up the volt/div to a place where you can see the line

2- Horizontal

The time base knob adjusts the frequency range of the scope in the same way that the volt/div effects the voltage, but it's stretching the representation of time/div instead of voltage. If you turn it counterclockwise, you decrease the time (make it slower) and if you turn it clockwise you increase the time (make it faster).

In this case, "faster" means a shorter length of time is represented by each division. It goes from seconds up to nanoseconds. The vast majority of what I usually do is in the milisecond to microseconds range, or bascially in the middle. 50 microseconds seems to be a good place to start for me usually.

I would put it there and then wind it to the left if nothing is there to see if you are just missing a slower signal.

3-Trigger

This sets the voltage level at which the scope will capture data each time it refreshes. I would leave it on auto, and then you can use the level knob to bring it to just above or just below zero. It will show a yellow line to indicate the trigger level while you are moving the knob. You might have to tweak it to stabilize the image when you find a signal.

Image


Your multimeter is RMS, so it should be able to peek the voltage, providing it's not a really weird waveform. I'm not sure how even such a DMM would behave if faced with something very irregular, but if you've seen people do it in videos, then I would believe it's possible.

If that's the case, then there's probably something wacky going on, but you'll still need to look at what's coming out of the heater pin on the BK to know what the deal is.
Finally Do I probe PIN 1 Heater Voltage with the probe and clamps to the side of the metal case?
I would attach the ground clip to a place on the circuit of the BK467 that is labelled ground on the schematic. You can also measure a ground point against the metal case of the 467, and if you have continuity, then it's the same as attaching directly to ground inside anyway.
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Re: B&K Precision 467 calibration issue

Post by tongshadow »

Watch this video, it's about repairing a rejuvenator but he also shows how to measure voltages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD7d9tNMzUE
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