Thinking of adding a 16:9 CRT to my setup

[Nodoyuna]

Hi all!

Right now, I have in my setup a PVM for 15KHz playing at 4:3 and a PC monitor for 31KHZ playing at 4:3 too

I was thinking about adding a 16:9 CRT to my setup...

So I started to search in the internet and found that there are professional 16:9 CRT. The problem is that they are really way too expensive for me and I will have to buy them from USA or something, as here in Spain I never found anything like that and everyone I asked about it tells me the same "those kind of monitors never arrived here"

So the next option will be a CRT HD TV. I heard they add some lag and that they scale everything you connect to them to their maximum resolution of 1080i, so I don't really know if that's a good option

Of course, I have a modern display for HD stuff, but I'd really love to have a CRT for 720p and 1080i.

As far as I know, there is no 1080p capable CRT (except maybe for PC monitors, but they are difficult to find in 16:9 CRT, and they are expensive too) They are selling a Sony FW900 monitor for 9.000$ plus 780$ for shipping)

Right now, I have everything 480i and below covered by the PVM, and 480p and other 4:3 resolutions covered by the PC CRT monitor I have

So the use for this possible 16:9 CRT will be to play the widescreen games available for 6th generation and up to 1080i, leaving the 1080p and up to the modern display

I'd like to ask about what people think here about this option of adding a 16:9 CRT to my setup and which models would be good to get for that

Thanks in advance

[gray117]

The good
Better for 720p than 1080i imho...
Makes this great crt for playing 360 and ps3 games best suited to 720p (most of them).
Probably hassle free via component (mileage may vary if looking to use other input options).

In general
Pretty sure *most* don't just scale to 1080i. But how they look at lower resolutions might be slightly unpredictable - actually in *general* assume not going be best of 240p vs. more regular sets.
They probably did land in Spain - it's just they weren't common tvs anywhere, since they were competing versus plasma or lcd options or just cheaper sdtv crts.


The bad
Old crts - probably a mass of boards and parts if you have to maintain.
Really hard to find - pro sets, or more expensive collector types like B&O, may even be easier to find than more regular consumer sets because at least they were identifiable and often had a distinct advantage colour wise - which was not a big selling point to general consumers who tended to skip these and/or junk them fairly quickly if they did have them.
Probably just not worth the cost, unless you get lucky - which will be one of those things where you'd have to hunt/know exact model and person selling it will probably just think they have an old/large tv they want to get rid of.


...

Upshot

Depending on your use case (massive desire to play a certain game on crt), or if you just want one for collector reasons ... I would probably give this a pass in favour of scaler and more contemporary screen these days.

But if you do have a real specific use case, and hankering for one - good luck and let us know how it goes!

[Josh128]

I'd advise against the 16:9 CRT as well. All of them ever made, even the so called 30" models, are huge and bulky, and they all seem to be more prone to geometry and other picture issues than their 4:3 counterparts, in my experience. Forget about the FW900-- just get yourself a very nice 32" OLED monitor or up to a 48" C4 OLED TV and pair that with an RT4K or OSSC Pro. IMO thats superior to everything else, including the FW900, at much less coss.

[orange808]

If I remember correctly, the Tink4k can accept 1080i or 720p 60Hz input and output 1080p 240Hz with BFI. I would stick to 720p. Use supersampling on a PC. Render at a higher res and downscale. That helps battle shimmering.

The motion clarity will be so good, you'll end up going down a second rabbit hole of microstutters, because there's no motion or persistence blur to smooth it out. Add a Darbee to the chain for a little extra sharpening. The test pattern artifacts won't bother you playing 3d games.

[Lord of Pirates]

I agree with the others that you're probably better off with a newer display and scaler or a scaler into your CRT monitor. If you're set on a dedicated 16:9/1080i CRT then look into TVs. I use a WEGA XBR960 frequently, an XBR800 before that, and I'm content with it. Projectors are an option if you have the money, space, and time and inclination or someone can handle setup for you. Don't spend $10k on an FW900 .

I'd advise against the 16:9 CRT as well. All of them ever made, even the so called 30" models, are huge and bulky, and they all seem to be more prone to geometry and other picture issues than their 4:3 counterparts, in my experience. Forget about the FW900-- just get yourself a very nice 32" OLED monitor or up to a 48" C4 OLED TV and pair that with an RT4K or OSSC Pro. IMO thats superior to everything else, including the FW900, at much less coss.

I wouldn't recommend someone a CRT at this point but, I'm not terribly impressed with the monitor I bought (LG 27GR95QE). Benefits already had from LCD with a bunch of tradeoffs for better black levels and ANSI contrast.

[RebeL9]

It all boils down to how much you are willing to spend. if you are willing to spend buck loads I would recommend a BVM D24. I have one and its my favourite monitor. Accepts everything from 240p all the way up to 1080i.
If you can accept an inferior image quality and geometry (and lag) then go for a consumer set.

[BazookaBen]

With most 1080i TV's you can get near lag-free 480p and even 240p with a Retrotink 5x (and maybe 4k?)

The discussion started in this thread but has been expanded to other threads: viewtopic.php?t=68605

Even without this, on 480p signals the input lag is only about 1 frame, on Sony TV's anyway

I'd advise against the 16:9 CRT as well. All of them ever made, even the so called 30" models, are huge and bulky, and they all seem to be more prone to geometry and other picture issues than their 4:3 counterparts, in my experience. Forget about the FW900-- just get yourself a very nice 32" OLED monitor or up to a 48" C4 OLED TV and pair that with an RT4K or OSSC Pro. IMO thats superior to everything else, including the FW900, at much less coss.

60fps won't look as good in motion unless you get an OLED with 60hz BFI. And even then I heard the strobe length adds some blur compared to CRT. And last I checked, does add a frame of lag (with no way to eliminate it like HDPT on a Sony CRT)

Though if you're cool with that extra frame of lag, the extra blur might not be a big deal on balance when you consider the better contrast of OLED

[Nodoyuna]

First of all, thanks for the answers...

As I said in my first post, I've got 15KHz (480i and below) and 31KHz (640x480, 800x600, 1024x768...) in 4:3 aspect ratio already covered with my PVM and a PC monitor.

So, I will not use the 16:9 HD CRT with these sources, as I want it to cover 16:9 resolutions properly (mostly 720p, but also 1360x768 if the TV can handle that resolution) up to 1080i

For 1080p and up I will get an OLED monitor...

I will not try to get the Sony FW900 (way too expensive) or BMV's (as far as I know, they are rare and mostly not available in Spain) I've seen some models on ebay, but again, they are way too expensive

That's why I started to think about adding a consumer CRT HD TV to my setup

Of course, if I can get a good deal on a BVM D24, I will take it, but it will be almost impossible, I think

[BazookaBen]

I think modern 180p, 240p, 270p, and 360p games would also be a very good use-case for a widescreen CRT.

Talking Sonic Mania, Shovel Knight, Blazing Chrome, Bloodstained Circle of the Moon, The Messenger, Sea of Stars, all that stuff. They're all 16:9 (well, 15:9 in Bloodstained case since it's a 3DS game originally)

With the right service menu settings and a Retrotink 5x, you can get all those to display fullscreen with zero latency.

[Nodoyuna]

I think modern 180p, 240p, 270p, and 360p games would also be a very good use-case for a widescreen CRT.

Talking Sonic Mania, Shovel Knight, Blazing Chrome, Bloodstained Circle of the Moon, The Messenger, Sea of Stars, all that stuff. They're all 16:9 (well, 15:9 in Bloodstained case since it's a 3DS game originally)

With the right service menu settings and a Retrotink 5x, you can get all those to display fullscreen with zero latency.

Cool! I didn't thought in that option and I think it will be great use for it and somehow will expand the possibilities

I already have a PC with CRT Emudriver in my setup, so maybe I could connect the output to the 16:9 CRT

Then I will not need the retrotink, right?

Thanks for the tip

[BazookaBen]

I already have a PC with CRT Emudriver in my setup, so maybe I could connect the output to the 16:9 CRT

Then I will not need the retrotink, right?

Thanks for the tip

The Retrotink5x would be for eliminated the extra frame of latency for 480p consoles, and maybe clean up image quality if you got unlucky with a Sony that over-processes 31kHz signals (though I think this maybe have a fix in the service menu? can't remember)

On PC, you'll be good to go out of the box with 270p, as you would just run a 540p resolution and add scanlines.

480p signals you'd need to run in a 540p container (33kHz) if you want to eliminate the extra frame of latency, which you'd then need to use the service menu to make them full screen.

So you'd play 240p games on that same 480p signal with a scanline filter overlaid.

180p and 360p are a bit tricky, I'm not 100% you can do them without sending the TV a 31kHz signal, because it will need a pretty serious raster stretch.

That's because 320x180 is the 16:9 middle part of 240p, and 640x360 is the same for 480p. With a 31kHz signal, the TV will easily let you blow these up to fullscreen with the "zoom" fuction.

But on a 33kHz signal... I'm not sure the zoom function is available (you'd have to ask someone that currently owns one). And I'm not sure there's enough leeway in the service menu to zoom them manually

180p, another workaround might be 1:1:0 scanline overlay, since 3x180=540. That would probably look pretty good.

So I guess that just leaves 360p as the only "not sure" about being able to display at 33kHz. Worst case, you have to send it as 31kHz and get used to that frame of lag for those particular games.

Hope all that made sense

TLDR: Don't need the Retrotink5x for PC. Resolutions that multiply to 540 will be lag free (after HDPT enabled). And resolutions that multiply to, or require, 480p will need some custom resolution+service menu tweaking if you want to eliminate the TV's built in frame of lag.

Though that frame of lag at 480p is just for Sony TV's. Other brands have no lag at 480p, some have more lag. So you also have the option to hunt down a TV that has no lag at for either 480p and 540p. You'll have dig deeper to find those brands/models though

[Mikey]

There are only a few widescreen games I play, like HoTD 4 and Razing Storm etc. on PS3, but they're letterboxed on a 4:3 screen. so I keep a widescreen TV for this reason.

I have a couple of 32" widescreen 100Hz TVs. One is a JVC and the other is a Loewe. The image on both is excellent with PS3, even if text is a little blurry. The Loewe looks amazing, even without the benefit of progressive scan. Finding a widescreen CRT TV that's capable of 1080i in Europe is difficult. They're more common in North America.

I also have a 42" widescreen 480p plasma, which is what I use now. Some of the later models from around 2005 have HDMI input, in addition to component, VGA and 3 SCARTS, 2 of which have RGB. I find this the ideal solution.

As for lag, I haven't measured it, but I don't find it a problem. I stopped using the PS3 with an LCD TV because the lag was obvious when calibrating the sight in Razing Storm. The target would visibly lag behind the Gun-Con. It's not noticeable on the CRT or plasma.

[SuperSpongo]

Many people here talk from a north American perspective, but there are no Sony HD CRTs capable of displaying 1080i in Europe. In fact there are virtually no HD CRTs period. So the solutions with lag-free 540p and a Retrotink5X are simply not applicable.
Regarding Sony, the only model that comes to mind is the Sony KV-32FD1E (and 28). It comes with a VGA connector but not much is known from a gamer's perspective (which resolutions work, which don't).

Some random info:
https://www.tvfreak.cz/forum/showthread ... -dispozici

[Fudoh]

In fact there are virtually no HD CRTs period.

While Sony did indeed miss the chance to jump onto the "progressive scan" wagon in the early 00-years, there are quite a few 480p/576p capable from other manufacturers, like Panasonic, Toshiba or Philips. All with component inputs for 480p and 576p.

the only model that comes to mind is the Sony KV-32FD1E (and 28)

I got Sonic Adventure in early 1999 along with a DC VGA box and a friend got a 32FD1 at the same time. Took all my DC stuff, headed over to him and we experienced Sonic Adventure in 480p at his place. Unfortunately the FD1 has no option to display a 480p input at 4:3, but it was still an awesome experience.

Sony had one more consumer TV before the FD1 which had an input they called "Golden Scart", which was capable to displaying a 31khz HD-MAC signal as well. Without any sources that didn't take them anywhere and the TV was obscenely expensive.... Some other manufacturers implemented this as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-MAC . This was basically the European version of MUSE. Today we should probably be capable of converting an external HD signal to something that golden scart input would understand.

[vol.2]

I would add to the list of people who recommend against 16:9. They tend to lose their geometry and need to be fixed, and if something goes really wrong, fixing them is a nightmare.

There have been various procedures to alleviate some of the more common geometry ills of this era Sony set, but if you don't really repair things yourself, it's not going to be much help to you.

If you really just want a big screen, I would go after one of the massive 40"ers. Though your back may never forgive you

[BazookaBen]

Many people here talk from a north American perspective, but there are no Sony HD CRTs capable of displaying 1080i in Europe. In fact there are virtually no HD CRTs period. So the solutions with lag-free 540p and a Retrotink5X are simply not applicable.

Actually, you guys have the better option, which are 480p/576p CRT's. So you can get by with something like a basic Retrotink 2x or GBS-C or OSSC. Because all you need to do is line double.

And from what I understand (I'm not European, so I might be wrong) these 31kHz TV's are lag-free with 31kHz signals?

[SuperSpongo]

Jupp, that's true. But not many TVs had VGA from the factory. It was a costly add-on card which not many people bought. Some later Grundigs like the Xentia line and high end models like the M95 do come with VGA by default though.

These are the common options:

- Grundig TV with appropriate Chassis and VGA board. There are four types of VGA boards. It depends on the TV's chassis which one is suitable.
- Loewe TV with appropriate Chassis and VGA board. The chassis are Q2400 and Q2500H and Q2500M IIRC. The Q2500B chassis that were frequently used are missing another daughter board and cannot be upgraded to VGA. There's a reproduction VGA board from a user named DJ Calle, but it's not always in stock
- Metz TVs with appropriate Chassis and special VGA to scart cable. This is the easiest route as the cable is DIYable pretty easily. I gathered all info I could find in this thread:
https://circuit-board.de/forum/index.ph ... 3%BCtzung/

All these are German brands and if you take a look at the service manuals, they pretty much all use the same or similar chips from "Micronas". This chip was also used in some Toshiba TVs, but the VGA RGB lines are not populated and I assume that the VGA functionality of the chip has to be enabled via i2c commands.

[SuperSpongo]

Sony had one more consumer TV before the FD1 which had an input they called "Golden Scart", which was capable to displaying a 31khz HD-MAC signal as well. Without any sources that didn't take them anywhere and the TV was obscenely expensive.... Some other manufacturers implemented this as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-MAC . This was basically the European version of MUSE. Today we should probably be capable of converting an external HD signal to something that golden scart input would understand.

I actually had the chance of testing this one. It's called the KW-HD3215. I still have pictures of it somewhere. I built a Component to Scart adapter and we tested it with 1080i (which is very close to 1125i). That worked. I think that 480p also worked, but not 720p. I just googled, there's even a service manual for it now!
https://archive.org/details/sony-kw-hd- ... 9/mode/2up
Haven't seen it ever since.

A friend of mine also had two prototype Philips TVs retrofitted with Golden Scart, but I didn't get the chance to test those. Philips 36HD8999 was the model number.

Yeah, the whole Golden Scart thing was dead in the water, unfortunately.

[Fudoh]

I actually had the chance of testing this one. It's called the KW-HD3215

I remember having the Sony consumer catalogue of that year and I think it was listed at 14,999 DM.

[SuperSpongo]

Wow, that's insane

The tube was a W76KXS010X. Same as in the japanese models KX-32HV50 and KW-3200HD, according to that one japanese TV tech on twitter
https://x.com/hn12v1_jp/status/927785530368016384