Rank meter

[D]

So, Ibara Black Label will have a rank meter.
I'd like to have a rank meter that reacts on every bullet shot.
Like THIS

At certain time the rank meter is like this:
RANK: 0,045432

D fires one shot, rank increase of 0,000001
RANK: 0,045433

D fires a BOMB, rank increase of 0,1
RANK: 0,149433

How would you like a rank meter?
It was about time for a damn rank meter. This will limit the gap between pro players and 'normal' players like myself.
Great stuff.
What do others think about a rank meter?
Maybe our suggestions will picked up in future shmups!

[sven666]

It was about time for a damn rank meter. This will limit the gap between pro players and 'normal' players like myself.
!

it will?? how?

i dont mind a rank meter, however i dont like it being added afterwards in a special release.

a re-releaseed garega with rank meter and vibrant pink bullets would be blasphemy.

[zakk]

So, Ibara Black Label will have a rank meter.
I'd like to have a rank meter that reacts on every bullet shot.
Like THIS

At certain time the rank meter is like this:
RANK: 0,045432

D fires one shot, rank increase of 0,000001
RANK: 0,045433

D fires a BOMB, rank increase of 0,1
RANK: 0,149433

How would you like a rank meter?
It was about time for a damn rank meter. This will limit the gap between pro players and 'normal' players like myself.
Great stuff.
What do others think about a rank meter?
Maybe our suggestions will picked up in future shmups!

Except in black label the rank meter is not quite the same as say, having a rank meter in Garegga or even normal Ibara. The rank meter is integral to the scoring system, and is manipulated in a different way than you would manipulate rank in the normal game.

Besides, in games that are rank-heavy, there's always ways to tell when you need to lower/raise rank. Enemies react different, shoot harder patterns etc.

[Neon]

This will limit the gap between pro players and 'normal' players like myself.

Do you think? It doesn't seem like it'll limit the thought process at all, just tells you with a visual representation what does and doesn't increase rank. Basically goes in place of reading an ST.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

Well, the shot thing would certainly be interesting with players who can jam on the buttons faster reaching higher ranks. This might also encourage players to not shoot, choosing their shots and whatnot.

I would've thought that bombs send the rank back down. But if higher rank=higher scoring opportunities then by your system, advanced players are going to be wasting their bombs straight away and risking going through the game without any bombs for max score. Might be interesting.

I like the new Ibara Rank system. If high rank actually hinders progression rather than balances difficulty *coughGradius* then there has to be a worthwhile incentive to reach it.

[Ceph]

a re-releaseed garega with rank meter and vibrant pink bullets would be blasphemy.

Heh, the Saturn port has a nice little option for the bullets. Blasphemy? ;-D

[BulletMagnet]

a re-releaseed garega with rank meter and vibrant pink bullets would be blasphemy.

Says you.

[Icarus]

I wouldn't get too excited. This rank meter is likely to be a one-off, localised to Ibara Kuro only. The meter is only present because there is a rank-based scoring multiplier in the game, and the likelyhood of it appearing in future rank-system games is pretty low. (This is Yagawa-san we are talking about, he thrives on torturing players ^_-)

As for limiting the gap between the normal players and the pro players... you still need to be able to understand the game, first ^_- A rank meter will help you get to grips with the game's inherent systems, but it won't make you a pro overnight.

And Garegga with vibrant pink bullets and a rank meter is blasphemy. Keep the game pure and unsullied, and not tainted by... outside influences ^_-

[BulletMagnet]

And Garegga with vibrant pink bullets and a rank meter is blasphemy. Keep the game pure and unsullied, and not tainted by... improvements ^_-

Fixed.

[Dandy J]

I just hope that black label doesn't increase rank for firing your weapons or grabbing powerups. That never made any sense to me...

"Oh my god this player KNOWS HOW TO SHOOT HIS WEAPON AND GRAB POWERUPS!" "Quick! Make the game more difficult!"

The system in black label makes more sense, in that you raise your rank to get a better multiplier for the roses, and the roses lower your rank again, establishing a flow to the game. A better player will be able to handle a higher rank, and therefore get more points. Instead of practicing moderation and using weaker weapons so that the game isn't too hard.

[BulletMagnet]

I don't want to see the whole rank malarkey started up again: I'm not even talking about the rank itself, just giving us a better way to keep track of it than fuzzy estimates based on a mixture of confirmed and unconfirmed factors.

[zakk]

I suspect the rank meter exists in Ibara Black Label only because there is utility in knowing when you've _maxed_ your rank. It would seem the optimal pattern is to max your rank so enemies have "fiercer" attacks (more bullets) and then convert those attacks to roses; collecting those will lower the rank.

All the rank meter allows you to do is figure out when you can't actually get any additional bullets out of enemies. Really all the intermediate levels of rank between 'lowest' and 'max' are sorta irrelevant. You're not going to be shooting for exact levels of rank.

[icycalm]

I think a Rank meter is the wrong way to go. Espgaluda has Rank effects but they are done right, so the meter is unecessary.

I think we need less meters and health bars and icons of all sorts on screen, and not more.

[Icarus]

And Garegga with vibrant pink bullets and a rank meter is blasphemy. Keep the game pure and unsullied, and not tainted by... improvements ^_-

Fixed.

Improvements for scrubs, maybe. -_-;;
Since when was it a prerequisite that any kind of advanced system needed meters and stuff all over the screen, to stop using players from using their brains during play? Is it really that difficult to keep track of your actions as you progress through a game? Or do we need an RPG-style Status screen for shmups now? -_-;;

And like a forum member said earlier in this thread: "Yes, hopefully developers start using things like Auto-Bomb or a button that absorbs all medals on screen. This way players can stop thinking during the 20 minute run through and concentrate on fun things like 'blowing stuff up'."

-_-;;

The game's not even out yet, and the yayrank/fuckrank/wtfisrank threads are popping up already.

[BulletMagnet]

I suspect the rank meter exists in Ibara Black Label only because there is utility in knowing when you've _maxed_ your rank.

The same thing would apply to something like Garegga: from what we know of it, at least, once your rank counter reaches a certain point, it will "roll over" to the next "rank level," and cannot be dropped below that point from then on. As such, the best time to suicide, drop medals, etc. is right before the thing "rolls over," to drop it back farther away from going up another level; if you die or drop right after the rank level has gone up, it'll barely do anything. As it is, it's more or less impossible to tell exactly where the rank is at, the best you can do is estimate and guess.

I think a Rank meter is the wrong way to go. Espgaluda has Rank effects but they are done right, so the meter is unecessary.

It's not even a matter of "right" or "wrong," it's just the fact that in Galuda (and most any Cave games) rank control is much less vital to both scoring and survival than it is in Garegga, so you don't need to devote as much attention to it.

I think we need less meters and health bars and icons of all sorts on screen, and not more.

Less screen clutter is well and good, but whenever you've got something that's absolutely central to playing the game properly which you're required to manipulate but have no way of keeping track of, I'm in favor of sacrificing that bit of screen space for a bit of clarity.

[BulletMagnet]

Since when was it a prerequisite that any kind of advanced system needed meters and stuff all over the screen, to stop using players from using their brains during play?

Since when does requiring a player to guess as to something's status as opposed to being able to keep track of it accurately count as "using one's brain?" If you give someone a task to do and blindfold him before he starts, if he opts to take off the blindfold rather than fumble his way through it, does that make him a "scrub?" Or a "whiner?"

And like a forum member said earlier in this thread: "Yes, hopefully developers start using things like Auto-Bomb or a button that absorbs all medals on screen. This way players can stop thinking during the 20 minute run through and concentrate on fun things like 'blowing stuff up'."

And I refer you to my reply to it:

Or, for gamers who might object, they could always just make enemies, items, bullets, and your craft completely invisible: through trial and error you'll eventually figure things out, if you're manly enough to stick with it.

[zakk]

Holy crap people, just shut up before this spirals into a dumb rank is bad vs rank is good vs I want obvious control over rank vs I like to figure it out myself. We've done this about 35 times before. Please. Fucking. Stop.

icycalm: Galuda has rank? I never noticed...

[Randorama]

*Monitors the thread and readies the holy forces of shmups inquisition*

[Ghegs]

The game's not even out yet, and the yayrank/fuckrank/wtfisrank threads are popping up already.

To turn that around, the game's not even out yet and several people have already condemned (and others have welcomed) the visible rank meter.

Instead of doing either it should first be considered how this design decision actually works in-game. Which we don't completely know yet. The context is important. Just like Mushi Arrange autobomb. That specific game mode is aimed more at beginning shmuppers instead of the "hardcore" crowd, so the autobomb makes sense in that context. It's not like the forcibly added the autobomb/rank meter to normal Mushi/Ibara modes.

Or that "button that absorbs all medals on screen". Really now. There are shmups where there are ways to collect all falling items on screen, like by releasing the fire button or destroying enemies a certain way. Same difference.

Saying "function X sucks in every and all occasion" is stupid. Knowing the context, that is, how this function works with the rest of the game design is the key here.

[icycalm]

Holy crap people, just shut up before this spirals into a dumb rank is bad vs rank is good vs I want obvious control over rank vs I like to figure it out myself. We've done this about 35 times before. Please. Fucking. Stop.

icycalm: Galuda has rank? I never noticed...

I found it very noticeable. Even the 2nd Stage mid-level boss has 3-4 different attack patterns depending on your rank.

Apparently, all Cave games have Rank effects, although I can't vouch for that since I've only played about half of them.

[Icarus]

In my opinion, the added rank meter has shifted focus from actually requiring knowledge of the system and experience in its manipulation, to viewing it as something arbitrary, something that is a side effect that doesn't have to be bothered with or studied if you just want to play. Whereas in the original Ibara, you had to know how to work the rank system in order to progress, my theory is that you don't even have to bother in Arranged/Black Label, and just bomb your way through the game. Especially considering that Rose Medals now DECREASE rank. Look ma! No need for suicides. -_-;;

(I guess that'll please the traditionalists somewhat.)

I wait with baited breath to experience just how chopped up the integral systems are in Arranged Mode. Just a few more weeks to go.

Holy crap people, just shut up before this spirals into a dumb rank is bad vs rank is good vs I want obvious control over rank vs I like to figure it out myself. We've done this about 35 times before. Please. Fucking. Stop.

You knew it was going to happen sooner or later. Right now we are just getting warmed up. ^_-

Apparently, all Cave games have Rank effects, although I can't vouch for that since I've only played about half of them.

All Cave games do have rank, usually based on survival time, plus a secondary factor (Kakusei Overmode in Espgaluda, Hyper usage in Daioujou etc). Nothing near as complex as the Raizing style, though.

[zakk]

Holy crap people, just shut up before this spirals into a dumb rank is bad vs rank is good vs I want obvious control over rank vs I like to figure it out myself. We've done this about 35 times before. Please. Fucking. Stop.

icycalm: Galuda has rank? I never noticed...

I found it very noticeable. Even the 2nd Stage mid-level boss has 3-4 different attack patterns depending on your rank.

Apparently, all Cave games have Rank effects, although I can't vouch for that since I've only played about half of them.

Those patterns are semi-random. There may be some factor no one has figured out; but I certainly did a variety of experiments with differing levels of gems/gold/points/lives/power levels/etc and there was no obvious pattern. I think they do it just to keep you on your toes. Much like the first poss of Ketsui, it just picks a pattern to use regardless of how well or badly you're doing in the game.

[Icarus]

In Espgaluda, Kakusei Overmode affects the speed of bullets fired, and the total number of bullets per pattern. With a faster bullet speed, patterns tend to cycle faster, increasing the chance of more vicious patterns appearing. Bullet patterns are denser, increasing both risk and scoring rewards.

There is a big difference to scoring in games with high rank and low rank in Galuda. Stage 4's train boss can give you a few million points more at high rank and the correct Kakusei kill timing, for example.

Rank also affects the amount of Seireiseki gained from enemies as well.

[zakk]

Interesting, because I never once noticed a difference in bullet speed, bullet density or patterns based on if i one-lifed to any part of galuda or not (and I max my overmode out on the first boss). It was all the same. I never fudged and died because the patterns were different or harder to deal with, I died because I'm a spaz and I just run into easy bullets sometimes.

[BulletMagnet]

In my opinion, the added rank meter has shifted focus from actually requiring knowledge of the system and experience in its manipulation, to viewing it as something arbitrary, something that is a side effect that doesn't have to be bothered with or studied if you just want to play. Whereas in the original Ibara, you had to know how to work the rank system in order to progress, my theory is that you don't even have to bother in Arranged/Black Label, and just bomb your way through the game. Especially considering that Rose Medals now DECREASE rank. Look ma! No need for suicides. -_-;;

You seem to be sort of lumping together a) the addition of the rank meter "on its own," and b) the apparent changes to the rank system itself in Arrange mode, whereas I'm really only concerned with the former. If, for example, it was possible to add the rank meter into regular ol' Arcade mode, without any further changes whatsoever, how would that somehow make it so that players wouldn't have to even bother with studying the way actions affect rank? They would still need to take notice of which things they did made the rank behave a certain way, and adjust their behavior accordingly: the only difference now would be that they can finally precisely see what's going on, rather than guessing based on trial and (lots of) error. Since when does impromptu vagueness and "theories" equal "real" knowledge, while hard, readily available data, obtained by much the same "basic" means, is somehow "arbitrary?"

As for the more "fundamental" changes made to Arrange Mode, I'm really neither here nor there when it comes to them...I would have been fine with keeping the "regular" play mechanics, more or less, in Arrange mode with the addition of the rank-o-meter and a few other knicknacks, a la Mushi. Having a completely different game, more or less, off to the side, though, doesn't strike me as disagreeable either (as I mentioned elsewhere, it strikes me something like Batsugun's Normal and Special versions). In any event, anyone who'd prefer to play "the old-fashioned way" still has Arcade mode, and can completely ignore Arrange if they wish to...unfortunately, there have already been jeers of "Girly Mode!" "Whiner Mode!" "Scrub Mode!" coming from that crowd. And, as you say, the thing's not even out yet.

[undamned]

Basically goes in place of reading an ST.

Beaten to it.
-ud

[Dandy J]

On the subject of the rank meter itself, I think it's a great idea. Giving the player more information is always good.

Imagine a fighting game that hides your super meter...

As for the concept of rank, I think it's a cool idea. In Black Label it seems like you will be rewarded with score if you can stand a higher rank.

This is also the case in OG Ibara, but correct me if I'm wrong, don't the roses increase/not affect rank there (and also have no multiplier)? So sure you can get a higher score (more bullets), but without multipliers or a way to decrease rank on command other than suicide, the risk/reward isn't worth it. So the solution seems to be moderation and sporadic suicides to keep rank low overall. Case in point, I never see Ibara replays where someone grabs all powerups or uses anything more powerful than rockets to keep their rank up. What use are the powerful weapons when even the elite players don't use them?

Sorry for arguing but I think it's fun~

[Neon]

If, for example, it was possible to add the rank meter into regular ol' Arcade mode, without any further changes whatsoever, how would that somehow make it so that players wouldn't have to even bother with studying the way actions affect rank? They would still need to take notice of which things they did made the rank behave a certain way, and adjust their behavior accordingly: the only difference now would be that they can finally precisely see what's going on, rather than guessing based on trial and (lots of) error. Since when does impromptu vagueness and "theories" equal "real" knowledge, while hard, readily available data, obtained by much the same "basic" means, is somehow "arbitrary?"

Exactly what I was getting across, yes. Though Icarus I'm sure has good reasons, and I'm not being sarcastic...

[Acid King]

In my opinion, the added rank meter has shifted focus from actually requiring knowledge of the system and experience in its manipulation, to viewing it as something arbitrary, something that is a side effect that doesn't have to be bothered with or studied if you just want to play

How does it change the perception of effects? All it does it make apparent to the player what affects rank how instead of effectively blindfolding them and turning it into guesswork. If person picks up a certain power up and sees the rank meter jump, they're going to think "i'd better not pick that up, it increases the rank too much" not "wow, that rank increase sure was arbitrary!" All it does is take the guesswork out of it. Saying that it doesn't require knowledge of the system is ridiculous. if anything it helps people gain knowledge of the system faster, since all it does, like everyone has been saying, is show the effects in an easier to understand way.

[CMoon]

Just to show I go both ways (haha!), I actually think rank meters could be a cool thing, just like visible hitboxes. Of cousre, that doesn't change the fact that the whiners just need to grow a pair But tying it into score multipliers and other things sounds awesome. Definitely dump the number scheme and just have a big 'rank bar' that fills up like a super meter. Hah! Ultimately, we'll get rid of the high score board and replace it with the high rank board.