20th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

[parodius]

Code: Select all

                    Top 25         Hon.M.          Overall
Konami                 1              2               3

Which Konami game is in the top 25?
Can't see any

Goog job as always btw.
Didn't participate this year, but yeah pretty shocking no Gradius made the top 25 while 2 Darius games did.

[ryu]

Guess I have to play Hishouzame now. And ask Konami to hire M2 and get a Gradius collection under way. Sad times indeed.

Thanks for keeping the tradition going.

[Nifty]

Which Konami game is in the top 25?
Can't see any

Missed updating the row when I copied it, it's fixed now

[Lemnear]

Guess I have to play Hishouzame now. And ask Konami to hire M2 and get a Gradius collection under way. Sad times indeed.

Thanks for keeping the tradition going.

What would be the next M2 non-Toaplan non-Aleste game?
Batrider? Gradius V? Another DoDonPachi? Ibara?...

[Steven]

Gradius 1-3 are all on ACA already. Gaiden and V are stuck on the PS1 and PS2 and deserve rescuing, especially V because it only runs in interlaced! Interlaced sucks. 一緒に全てをlet'sプログレッシブスキャン！！

Hishouzame is extremely fun to play and it's also extremely well-designed. I can't believe that it never showed up until now and I am just as sad that it hadn't as I am happy that it is finally here. Now will people go play it?

Spoiler

No, they won't

I bought my Japanese copy for Switch on the day it came out. I was put off by the difficulty of "Same! Same! Same!" but I'm glad to report I'm now attempting a 1-ALL of Hishouzame, very much inspired by the results of this poll as well as the glowing praise it gets in this forum

Same! Same! Same! is a great game. In some ways I like it more than Hishouzame, but that 1P version is terrifying until you put in a lot of practice.


Hishouzame 1-ALL is not too bad. It's one of the easiest Toaplan 1-ALLs, so with some practice you will get it for sure! I think it took me 7 hours and 2 minutes to get it as a relative beginner with no save state practice or Arcade Challenge. I want to say that enemy bullet speed reaches its maximum speed near the beginning of loop 2. After that enemy HP and possibly enemy firing rate will continue to increase slightly until somewhere in loop 3, after which it stops becoming harder. I think there was an interview where someone who worked on the game said eventually there will be an overflow and the game will revert back to its original difficulty, but you will have to play many loops to get to that point.

I think that some games are pushed high by their influential history (a lot of the top 10), famous STG masterpieces, some votes are more for reverence than liking probably.

Obligatory Namiki on Hishouzame's greatness: https://youtu.be/P-PVtt2L6Hg?si=G-birdBz32-newwc&t=801

I wish I could find that thing Namiki posted on Twitter before he deleted his old account where he said that Hishouzame is the single best vertical shooting game ever created, but that one's probably lost.

Spoiler

This is somewhat enlightening...for the same reason i love the Dark Souls series and Elden Ring...and i don't like Sekiro.

With the exception of Mahjong Sisters (I'm guessing because I don't know how to play mahjong), every 80s Toaplan game is like this, even the non-shooting games like my beloved Horror Story. They are all memorizers but with great care put into designing checkpoint recovery in most cases.

[Angry Hina]

Hishouzame 1-ALL is not too bad. It's one of the easiest Toaplan 1-ALLs, so with some practice you will get it for sure! I think it took me 7 hours and 2 minutes to get it as a relative beginner with no save state practice or Arcade Challenge. I want to say that enemy bullet speed reaches its maximum speed near the beginning of loop 2. After that enemy HP and possibly enemy firing rate will continue to increase slightly until somewhere in loop 3, after which it stops becoming harder. I think there was an interview where someone who worked on the game said eventually there will be an overflow and the game will revert back to its original difficulty, but you will have to play many loops to get to that point.

I needed between 15 and 17 with some save space practice if you want an estimation from someone who is not practicing SSS 1P at the moment

[dmk1198]

Very influenced by current re-releases.

I think that's not a bad thing

[Lemnear]

Gradius 1-3 are all on ACA already. Gaiden and V are stuck on the PS1 and PS2 and deserve rescuing, especially V because it only runs in interlaced! Interlaced sucks. 一緒に全てをlet'sプログレッシブスキャン！！

Obligatory Namiki on Hishouzame's greatness: https://youtu.be/P-PVtt2L6Hg?si=G-birdBz32-newwc&t=801
I wish I could find that thing Namiki posted on Twitter before he deleted his old account where he said that Hishouzame is the single best vertical shooting game ever created, but that one's probably lost.

Spoiler

This is somewhat enlightening...for the same reason i love the Dark Souls series and Elden Ring...and i don't like Sekiro.

With the exception of Mahjong Sisters (I'm guessing because I don't know how to play mahjong), every 80s Toaplan game is like this, even the non-shooting games like my beloved Horror Story. They are all memorizers but with great care put into designing checkpoint recovery in most cases.

Always sensed that, since you suggested Kyukyoku Tiger
Uemura just confirmed.
But even Batsugun that you discredit so much does a similar thing (without checkpoints).

Very influenced by current re-releases.

I think that's not a bad thing

This is a GOOD thing, this means that newer releases have some kind of response and don't completely fall into oblivion.

And for ProGear...i feel like all of a sudden everyone realized that it only costs 1/2 dollars

[NuclearPotato]

I think I mentioned it in the discussion thread, but in my case the Progear vote came from it showing up in the last La Calice Cup tournament and getting to put time into it; same with Raiden DX. I wouldn't necessarily be surprised to see them drop over time in my own vote in a couple years time (but maybe not; they're good games!). Hishouzame's appearance took me by surprise, not because of it showing up, but because I figured with a game as influential as it, it'd have at least shown up in HMs in years previous, and not just be making its debut on the poll in general! The power of recent ports indeed.

[RobHimself]

What makes Hishouzame better than Same! Same! Same! ?

[Steven]

Always sensed that, since you suggested Kyukyoku Tiger
Uemura just confirmed.
But even Batsugun that you discredit so much does a similar thing (without checkpoints).

Batsugun is completely different from all other Toaplan games. Batsugun is a good game, but it lacks the super tight enemy placement and stage design of every other Toaplan game aside from Zero Wing. Batsugun also is contrary to the design of most Toaplan games in that the other Toaplan games were designed with the stages as the main focus of the game and the bosses are a bonus, but Batsugun seems more like the bosses are the main focus. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the first three stages are so short that it almost feels like the first half of the game is a boss rush type of thing.

What makes Hishouzame better than Same! Same! Same! ?

1. It's not borderline insanely difficult in a sinister and sadistic fashion (I like and enjoy the insanity, but most others probably don't)
2. No unwanted powerups to avoid
3. Almost never feels cheap or unfair and recovery is extremely well designed (except for that one section with the two large ships on the second stage on loops where dying is very very bad)
4. It might have a better soundtrack, depending on if you prefer the more energetic music of Hishouzame over the typically more solemn music of Same!, but both are excellent and highly recommended, as usual
5. Almost no randomness, which Same! has a lot of
6. No speed powerups

[Nifty]

The full results are now tabulated and ready for perusal

Code: Select all

###. Game Name                                          Total Score|Votes|HMs|SLs|Total Game Weight
     Top 25:

001. Battle Garegga / Premium Mode                       : 7.930505   42   2   2   2.352910
002. DoDonPachi Daioujou / Black Label / Re:Incarnation  : 7.593857   38   0   0   2.404382
003. Ketsui                                              : 7.565214   39   1   1   2.316753
004. Mushihimesama Futari / 1.5 / Black Label            : 6.614008   35   0   1   2.007050
005. DoDonPachi                                          : 5.608555   29   3   2   1.646643
006. Mushihimesama / 1.5                                 : 5.008903   28   2   1   1.432139
007. Darius Gaiden / Extra                               : 4.647182   27   2   1   1.291021
008. Ikaruga                                             : 4.369999   24   0   0   1.313645
009. RayForce / Layer Section                            : 4.252775   26   2   1   1.134184
010. ESP Ra.De. / Psi                                    : 4.180543   27   1   0   1.107656
011. Batsugun / Batsugun Special                         : 4.025029   27   2   0   1.016460
012. Crimzon Clover / World Ignition / World EXplosion   : 3.786208   26   0   1   0.942647
013. Radiant Silvergun                                   : 3.707152   20   1   0   1.109783
014. G-Darius / HD                                       : 3.485238   20   5   1   0.912803
015. DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu / 1.5 / Resurrection         : 3.445433   18   4   0   1.000341
016. Deathsmiles / 1.1 / Mega Black Label                : 3.434908   20   2   0   0.962455
017. Armed Police Batrider                               : 3.241234   20   3   1   0.828292
018. Cho Ren Sha 68K                                     : 3.099406   19   0   0   0.866769
019. Flying Shark / Hishouzame                           : 2.993582   18   1   1   0.807675
020. Progear no Arashi                                   : 2.960220   18   0   1   0.808044
021. ESPGaluda                                           : 2.909042   18   1   1   0.767021
022. Strikers 1945 II                                    : 2.857193   19   1   0   0.733882
023. Eschatos                                            : 2.761510   16   1   0   0.786344
024. R-Type                                              : 2.632743   15   3   0   0.724423
025. Dangun Feveron / Fever SOS                          : 2.617900   14   2   1   0.741903


     Honorable Mention:

026. Giga Wing                                           : 2.526302   18   1   1   0.582971
027. Raiden Fighters Jet                                 : 2.370887   16   1   0   0.598502
028. Gunbird 2                                           : 2.367628   16   0   0   0.613347
029. Thunder Dragon 2                                    : 2.350477   12   1   1   0.695366
030. Mars Matrix                                         : 2.340514   14   2   1   0.608515
031. ZeroRanger                                          : 2.338142   14   0   0   0.664817
032. DoDonPachi Saidaioujou                              : 2.305327   15   2   0   0.583388
033. Soukyugurentai / Terra Diver                        : 2.295532   14   2   0   0.611502
034. Raiden DX                                           : 2.266784   15   0   0   0.597678
035. ESPGaluda II                                        : 2.200601   15   1   0   0.549440
036. Twin Cobra / Kyukyoku Tiger (ARC/PCE)               : 2.191586   14   2   0   0.561517
037. Gradius V                                           : 2.174672   15   0   0   0.553383
038. Muchi Muchi Pork!                                   : 2.173698   13   1   1   0.577533
039. R-Type Delta                                        : 2.115456   14   2   0   0.524908
040. Mahou Daisakusen / Sorcer Striker                   : 2.018428   12   1   1   0.535692
041. Under Defeat                                        : 1.964857   14   3   0   0.436076
042. Out Zone                                            : 1.963531   13   0   0   0.517499
043. Judgement Silversword                               : 1.914436   12   2   1   0.469273
044. Gradius Gaiden                                      : 1.867605   12   1   0   0.487783
045. GG Aleste 3                                         : 1.766211   12   0   0   0.455437
046. Dragon Blaze                                        : 1.759403   11   2   0   0.452164
047. Blazing Star                                        : 1.640061   08   6   0   0.427599
048. Ibara                                               : 1.623660   06   0   1   0.559216
049. Battle Bakraid                                      : 1.572308   11   0   1   0.370400
050. Darius Burst: AC / EX / Chronicle Saviours          : 1.556383   10   0   1   0.395566
051. Thunder Force IV / Lightening Force                 : 1.505457   10   2   0   0.362871
052. Cotton Rock 'n' Roll / Cotton Fantasy               : 1.497012   11   0   0   0.358810
053. Fire Shark / Same! Same! Same!                      : 1.467831   11   1   1   0.303747
054. Imperishable Night [Touhou 8]                       : 1.442342   08   2   0   0.398169
055. Gradius II: Gofer no Yabou/Vulcan Venture (NES/ARC) : 1.439911   08   1   1   0.388794
056. Shikigami no Shiro II / Castle Shikigami 2          : 1.433953   09   0   0   0.394135
057. Akai Katana                                         : 1.431873   08   1   0   0.409547
058. Raiden Fighters 2                                   : 1.392073   08   2   0   0.373996
059. DonPachi                                            : 1.340284   10   0   0   0.316267


     The Rest:

060. Einhänder                                           : 1.274020   07   2   0   0.350052
061. Kamui                                               : 1.229331   09   1   0   0.279325
062. Strikers 1945 III / Strikers 1999                   : 1.219828   08   1   0   0.307580
063. Perfect Cherry Blossom [Touhou 7]                   : 1.204130   08   1   0   0.300031
064. Psyvariar Revision / Psyvariar Delta                : 1.153608   06   1   0   0.341385
065. Soldier Blade                                       : 1.125122   06   2   1   0.286656
066. Rolling Gunner                                      : 1.111411   07   1   1   0.263651
067. Sisters Royale                                      : 1.082854   07   0   0   0.290949
068. Gradius / Nemesis (ARC/PCE)                         : 1.073297   06   2   1   0.261735
069. Raiden IV                                           : 1.071789   07   0   0   0.285628
070. Metal Black                                         : 1.054492   07   2   0   0.244486
071. Blue Revolver                                       : 1.045281   08   1   0   0.223644
072. Gunvein                                             : 1.036040   07   0   0   0.268437
073. Guardian Force                                      : 1.016583   06   0   0   0.291905
074. Twinkle Star Sprites                                : 1.009379   06   4   0   0.222792
075. Radirgy                                             : 1.003536   05   1   0   0.302043
076. Salamander / Life Force (ARC/PCE)                   : 0.979429   06   1   0   0.257626
077. Recca [Summer Carnival '92]                         : 0.971635   06   2   0   0.237466
078. Hellsinker                                          : 0.949040   06   1   0   0.243013
079. Sengoku Blade / Tengai                              : 0.936287   06   0   0   0.253292
080. DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu Black Label                  : 0.928085   05   0   1   0.257554
081. Gun Frontier                                        : 0.923475   06   0   1   0.222513
082. Blazing Lazers / Gunhed                             : 0.900193   06   1   0   0.219523
083. Ginga Force                                         : 0.891761   05   1   0   0.248293
084. Harmful Park                                        : 0.871317   06   1   0   0.205638
085. Psyvariar 2                                         : 0.855742   05   0   0   0.247385
086. Guwange                                             : 0.852973   05   4   0   0.180404
087. Xevious                                             : 0.832502   06   1   0   0.186973
088. Salamander 2                                        : 0.831032   06   1   0   0.186265
089. Gokujou Parodius                                    : 0.830957   06   1   0   0.186230
090. Thunder Force III                                   : 0.823327   05   1   0   0.215385
091. 19XX: The War Against Destiny                       : 0.818130   07   0   0   0.163649
092. Strikers 1945                                       : 0.800359   06   1   0   0.171516
093. Zanac Neo                                           : 0.798708   05   2   0   0.187134
094. Darius / Extra (ARC/MD)                             : 0.780682   05   4   0   0.145641
095. P-47 Aces                                           : 0.767905   04   0   0   0.237970
096. Akai Katana Shin / Slash                            : 0.767043   05   1   0   0.188319
097. Border Down                                         : 0.763603   05   0   0   0.203077
098. Musha Aleste / M.U.S.H.A.                           : 0.745582   04   5   0   0.145175
099. R-Type Leo                                          : 0.744715   06   0   0   0.161170
100. Infinos Gaiden / EXA                                : 0.742667   05   0   0   0.193009
101. Tatsujin / Truxton                                  : 0.740427   04   3   0   0.175520
102. Phantasmagoria of Dim.Dream [Touhou 3]              : 0.705243   03   0   0   0.240662
103. Neko Navy                                           : 0.705242   04   1   1   0.166807
104. Raiden II                                           : 0.702612   06   0   0   0.140924
105. Thunder Force V                                     : 0.694625   05   2   0   0.137083
106. Natsuki Chronicles                                  : 0.689981   04   1   0   0.184086
107. R-Type Final 2 / R-Type Final 3 Evolved             : 0.688502   05   0   0   0.166963
108. DeltaZeal / G-Stream G2020                          : 0.669749   04   0   0   0.190769
109. Gun.Smoke                                           : 0.664633   06   0   0   0.122661
110. Giga Wing 2                                         : 0.661995   03   0   1   0.195247
111. V-V [V-Five] / Grind Stormer                        : 0.655336   05   2   0   0.118189
112. Super Spacefortress Macross II                      : 0.640278   05   1   0   0.127361
113. Fantasy Zone II / II DX                             : 0.633124   04   0   0   0.173157
114. Deathsmiles II / IIX                                : 0.627693   05   0   0   0.137721
115. Gradius III (ARC)                                   : 0.597802   04   1   0   0.139759
116. Sexy Parodius                                       : 0.590841   05   0   0   0.120000
117. Zero Gunner 2                                       : 0.586568   03   2   0   0.150769
118. Dimahoo / Great Mahou Daisakusen                    : 0.585499   05   0   0   0.117431
119. Seirei Senshi Spriggan                              : 0.584431   03   1   0   0.166154
120. Pulstar                                             : 0.583469   04   1   0   0.132867
121. Mecha Ritz / Steel Rondo                            : 0.581540   03   2   0   0.148352
122. Parodius Da! / Parodius                             : 0.577871   03   0   1   0.154793
123. Embodiment of Scarlet Devil [Touhou 6]              : 0.573960   04   1   0   0.128294
124. Illvelo / Illmatic Envelope                         : 0.571199   02   1   0   0.192615
125. Great Fairy Wars [Touhou 12.8]                      : 0.568268   03   0   0   0.174794
126. Flame Zapper Kotsujin                               : 0.567633   04   0   0   0.141664
127. GunNail                                             : 0.564177   04   1   0   0.123590
128. RayStorm                                            : 0.562625   04   1   0   0.122844
129. Vasara 2                                            : 0.557191   04   0   0   0.136643
130. Tiger-Heli (NES/ARC)                                : 0.530285   05   0   0   0.090880
131. Shienryu                                            : 0.522594   05   1   0   0.070769
132. Blue Wish Resurrection / Plus                       : 0.521867   03   2   1   0.095038
133. Lords of Thunder / Winds of Thunder                 : 0.505523   04   1   0   0.095385
134. Twinkle Tale                                        : 0.503338   03   0   0   0.143570
135. Undefined Fantastic Object [Touhou 12]              : 0.501826   03   1   0   0.126431
136. Gate of Thunder                                     : 0.499219   03   4   0   0.075941
137. Image Fight                                         : 0.493722   04   0   0   0.106122
138. In The Hunt / Kaitei Daisensou                      : 0.490265   03   0   0   0.137284
139. Hydorah / Super Hydorah                             : 0.488913   03   0   0   0.136634
140. Karous                                              : 0.476078   03   0   0   0.130462
141. Star Force                                          : 0.475642   03   3   0   0.081015
142. Danmaku Unlimited 3                                 : 0.473056   03   0   0   0.129009
143. Space Manbow                                        : 0.468278   03   0   0   0.126711
144. Defender                                            : 0.465119   04   2   0   0.059543
145. Super Aleste / Space Megaforce                      : 0.458862   04   1   0   0.072946
146. Cotton Boomerang                                    : 0.458598   03   0   0   0.122056
147. Super XYX                                           : 0.446878   03   1   0   0.100008
148. Zanac (NES) / Zanac EX                              : 0.441150   02   2   0   0.113666
149. 1941: Counter Attack                                : 0.439848   02   2   0   0.113040
150. Aero Fighters 2 / Sonic Wings 2                     : 0.437385   03   0   0   0.111855
151. Trizeal                                             : 0.436449   03   0   0   0.111405
152. Raiden Fighters                                     : 0.434292   03   0   0   0.110368
153. Apidya                                              : 0.427614   03   0   0   0.107156
154. Nexzr / Nexzr Special                               : 0.405674   03   0   0   0.096606
155. Jamestown / Jamestown+                              : 0.396684   03   1   0   0.075871
156. Seisou Kouki Strania / Strania: The Stella Machina  : 0.394758   03   0   0   0.091357
157. Cyvern: The Dragon Weapons                          : 0.394458   02   1   0   0.107625
158. Power Strike II (SMS)                               : 0.394286   03   1   0   0.074718
159. Shikigami no Shiro / Castle of Shikigami            : 0.390759   02   1   0   0.105846
160. Viper Phase 1                                       : 0.389110   02   0   0   0.121465
161. DoDonPachi II: Bee Storm                            : 0.387799   03   0   0   0.088011
162. Andro Dunos 2                                       : 0.384669   03   2   0   0.053681
163. Aero Fighters 3 / Sonic Wings 3                     : 0.376376   03   0   0   0.082517
164. Game Tengoku                                        : 0.373688   03   2   0   0.048400
165. Hitogata Happa                                      : 0.371377   02   0   0   0.112938
166. Bangai-O                                            : 0.371280   02   0   0   0.112891
167. R-Type Final                                        : 0.371141   03   0   0   0.080000
168. Star of Providence / Monolith                       : 0.363177   03   0   0   0.076170
169. 1944: The Loop Master                               : 0.359699   03   0   0   0.074498
170. Caladrius / Caladrius Blaze                         : 0.359391   03   0   0   0.074350
171. Fantasy Zone (ARC/PS2)                              : 0.357210   02   4   0   0.040477
172. Xexex                                               : 0.352222   03   1   0   0.054490
173. Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius                            : 0.349809   02   1   0   0.086154
174. R-Type II                                           : 0.346793   03   2   0   0.035467
175. Brave Blade                                         : 0.345969   02   1   0   0.084308
176. Phantasmagoria of Flower View [Touhou 9]            : 0.344320   02   0   0   0.099927
177. RayCrisis                                           : 0.337011   02   1   0   0.080000
178. Hyper Duel (ARC/SAT)                                : 0.336281   02   2   0   0.063237
179. Twin Hawk / Daisenpuu                               : 0.334457   02   1   0   0.078772
180. Radirgy Noa                                         : 0.328910   03   0   0   0.059692
181. Mountain of Faith [Touhou 10]                       : 0.327938   01   1   1   0.083843
182. Geometry Wars 3                                     : 0.325734   02   0   0   0.090989
183. Mr. Heli no Daibouken                               : 0.323730   02   0   0   0.090025
184. Mamoru-kun wa Norowarete Shimatta!                  : 0.322659   02   0   0   0.089510
185. Pink Sweets                                         : 0.321301   03   0   0   0.056033
186. Nex Machina                                         : 0.316688   02   0   0   0.086639
187. Gradius III (SNES)                                  : 0.315691   02   3   0   0.036923
188. Resogun                                             : 0.315106   02   0   0   0.085878
189. Detana!! TwinBee                                    : 0.306465   02   1   0   0.065311
190. TwinBee Yahho!                                      : 0.306010   02   1   0   0.065092
191. Triggerheart Exelica                                : 0.305019   02   1   0   0.064615
192. Cotton Reboot                                       : 0.303799   03   1   0   0.031205
193. Cambria Sword                                       : 0.299131   02   0   0   0.078196
194. Raiden III                                          : 0.298620   02   1   0   0.061538
195. Omega Fighter / Omega Fighter Special               : 0.296483   02   0   0   0.076923
196. 1943: The Battle of Midway                          : 0.295422   03   0   0   0.043588
197. Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire                       : 0.294358   02   2   0   0.043077
198. Phoenix                                             : 0.287960   03   0   0   0.040000
199. Thunder Force AC                                    : 0.285823   02   1   0   0.055385
200. Kingdom Grandprix  / Shippu Mahou Daisakusen        : 0.284147   02   1   0   0.054579
201. Gunbird                                             : 0.281843   02   2   0   0.037059
202. Air Buster / Aero Blasters                          : 0.280979   03   0   0   0.036643
203. Never Awake                                         : 0.277287   02   0   0   0.067692
204. X-Multiply                                          : 0.276037   02   1   0   0.050679
205. Darius II                                           : 0.275612   02   0   0   0.066886
206. Tatsujin Oh / Truxton II                            : 0.275281   02   2   0   0.033903
207. Daioh                                               : 0.274088   02   0   0   0.066154
208. Sky Adventure                                       : 0.273695   02   0   0   0.065965
209. Bio-Hazard Battle / Crying                          : 0.271313   02   1   0   0.048407
210. Shikigami no Shiro III                              : 0.271086   02   0   0   0.064710
211. Gekirindan                                          : 0.270889   02   0   0   0.064615
212. XII Stag / XIIZeal                                  : 0.266627   02   1   0   0.046154
213. Dezatopia                                           : 0.263061   02   0   0   0.060851
214. Eden's Aegis                                        : 0.262290   01   0   1   0.068686
215. Beamrider                                           : 0.261064   02   0   0   0.059891
216. Galaga                                              : 0.260229   02   1   0   0.043077
217. Slap Fight MD                                       : 0.257578   01   1   0   0.074627
218. Cardinal Sins                                       : 0.257072   01   2   0   0.057971
219. Fast Striker                                        : 0.253830   02   1   0   0.040000
220. DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu 1.51                         : 0.247530   01   0   0   0.086207
221. Gundemonium Recollection                            : 0.246302   01   0   0   0.085616
222. Graze Counter GM                                    : 0.243893   03   0   0   0.018809
223. Cybattler                                           : 0.242479   02   1   0   0.034542
224. GanaBlade                                           : 0.240481   02   0   0   0.049993
225. Viewpoint                                           : 0.234634   02   1   0   0.030769
226. Revolver360 Re:actor                                : 0.232433   01   0   0   0.078947
227. Power Strike / Aleste                               : 0.228224   01   0   0   0.076923
227. Tempest                                             : 0.228224   01   0   0   0.076923
229. Exzisus                                             : 0.225145   02   0   0   0.042618
230. Slap Fight                                          : 0.223449   01   0   0   0.074627
231. Bangai-O Spirits                                    : 0.217122   01   1   0   0.055172
232. Aero Fighters / Sonic Wings                         : 0.216798   01   0   0   0.071429
233. Psyche Metal: The Bleeding                          : 0.215427   01   0   0   0.070769
233. Crisis Force                                        : 0.215427   01   0   0   0.070769
235. Xevious Arrangement                                 : 0.214706   01   0   0   0.070423
236. RefRain: Prism Memories                             : 0.213302   01   2   0   0.036923
237. Aka to Blue / Type-R                                : 0.213298   01   1   0   0.053333
238. Hidden Star in Four Seasons [Touhou 16]             : 0.209404   01   0   0   0.067873
238. Riverbed Soul Saver                                 : 0.209404   01   0   0   0.067873
240. Exed Exes                                           : 0.209028   01   0   0   0.067692
240. Battle Traverse                                     : 0.209028   01   0   0   0.067692
242. Sturmwind                                           : 0.204766   01   1   0   0.049231
243. Space Invaders Extreme 2                            : 0.203337   01   1   0   0.048544
244. Dogyuun                                             : 0.199121   02   0   0   0.030104
245. Radirgy Swag                                        : 0.198368   01   1   0   0.046154
246. Armed Police Unit Gallop                            : 0.196231   01   0   0   0.061538
247. Zed Blade                                           : 0.195986   02   0   0   0.028596
248. Ikusaaaaaaan!                                       : 0.195913   01   1   0   0.044974
249. Thunder Cross                                       : 0.195087   02   0   0   0.028164
250. Pocky & Rocky / KiKi KaiKai: Nazo no Kuro Manto     : 0.192960   02   0   0   0.027141
251. Darius Burst                                        : 0.189832   01   0   0   0.058462
251. Robotron: 2084                                      : 0.189832   01   0   0   0.058462
253. 1942                                                : 0.189473   02   1   0   0.009052
254. Air Gallet                                          : 0.187090   01   0   0   0.057143
254. Sine Mora                                           : 0.187090   01   0   0   0.057143
256. Kaikan                                              : 0.185399   02   1   0   0.007093
257. Sci-Fi Assault Mothership Beluga                    : 0.184869   01   0   0   0.056075
258. Pink Sweets (Arrange)                               : 0.183434   01   0   0   0.055385
258. Alltynex Second                                     : 0.183434   01   0   0   0.055385
258. Interstellar Sentinel                               : 0.183434   01   0   0   0.055385
261. Bangai-O HD: Missile Fury                           : 0.182992   01   0   0   0.055172
262. Shining Shooting Star                               : 0.182626   00   0   1   0.063202
263. Sengoku Ace / Samurai Aces                          : 0.181610   01   1   0   0.038095
264. Aleste 2                                            : 0.180667   01   0   0   0.054054
265. Akai Katana EXA Label                               : 0.179168   01   0   0   0.053333
266. Steel Empire (3DS)                                  : 0.178391   01   0   0   0.052960
267. Xeno Crisis                                         : 0.177985   02   0   0   0.019940
268. Gratia - Second Earth                               : 0.177709   01   0   0   0.052632
269. Raiden                                              : 0.177047   01   3   0   0.003077
270. Double Dealing Character [Touhou 14]                : 0.173864   00   0   1   0.058989
270. Concealed the Conclusion                            : 0.173864   00   0   1   0.058989
272. Trouble Witches                                     : 0.173606   01   1   0   0.034247
273. Space Moth: Lunar Edition                           : 0.172773   01   1   0   0.033846
274. Giga Wing Generations                               : 0.170735   01   0   1   0.024660
275. Purikura Daisakusen                                 : 0.170637   01   0   0   0.049231
276. Nostradamus                                         : 0.170187   02   0   0   0.016190
277. GHOSTUS                                             : 0.169208   01   0   0   0.048544
278. Chaos Field                                         : 0.168934   01   1   0   0.032000
279. Like Dreamer                                        : 0.168406   01   1   0   0.031746
280. Dead Nation                                         : 0.167285   01   0   0   0.047619
280. Blue Devil in the Belvedere                         : 0.167285   01   0   0   0.047619
282. Asteroids Deluxe                                    : 0.164238   01   0   0   0.046154
282. Super Star Soldier                                  : 0.164238   01   0   0   0.046154
284. Sonic Wings Special                                 : 0.158593   01   1   0   0.027027
285. Eliminate Down                                      : 0.157839   01   0   0   0.043077
286. Z-Out                                               : 0.156127   01   0   0   0.042254
286. Ibara Kuro                                          : 0.156127   01   0   0   0.042254
286. Terra Cresta                                        : 0.156127   01   0   0   0.042254
289. eXceed 3rd - Jade Penetrate Black Package           : 0.156032   01   0   0   0.042208
290. Hellfire                                            : 0.155714   01   2   0   0.009231
291. Graze Counter                                       : 0.152477   01   0   0   0.040498
292. Granada                                             : 0.151441   01   0   0   0.040000
292. Gradius: The Interstellar Assault                   : 0.151441   01   0   0   0.040000
292. Illvelo Swamp                                       : 0.151441   01   0   0   0.040000
292. Varth: Operation Thunderstorm                       : 0.151441   01   0   0   0.040000
296. Pleasure Hearts                                     : 0.150346   01   0   0   0.039474
297. Prehistoric Isle 2                                  : 0.149437   01   1   0   0.022624
298. Sky Force Reloaded                                  : 0.147480   01   0   0   0.038095
299. Hazelnut Hex                                        : 0.147179   01   1   0   0.021538
300. Shoot the Bullet [Touhou 9.5]                       : 0.145279   01   0   0   0.037037
300. TranscendPang                                       : 0.145279   01   0   0   0.037037
302. Black Heart                                         : 0.145042   01   0   0   0.036923
303. Explosive Breaker                                   : 0.141226   01   0   0   0.035088
303. Super Spacefortress Macross                         : 0.141226   01   0   0   0.035088
303. Andro Dunos                                         : 0.141226   01   0   0   0.035088
306. Psyvariar: Medium Unit                              : 0.140970   01   0   0   0.034965
307. Mystic Riders                                       : 0.138644   01   0   0   0.033846
307. Quarth                                              : 0.138644   01   0   0   0.033846
307. Pop'n Twinbee                                       : 0.138644   01   0   0   0.033846
307. P-47: The Phantom Fighter                           : 0.138644   01   0   0   0.033846
307. Operation STEEL                                     : 0.138644   01   0   0   0.033846
312. Senjin Aleste                                       : 0.137809   01   0   0   0.033445
313. Gradius IV                                          : 0.136883   00   1   1   0.024793
314. Axelay                                              : 0.136519   00   4   0   0.000000
315. Gyrodine                                            : 0.135704   01   0   0   0.032432
316. Tsukihime no Shiro                                  : 0.134805   01   0   0   0.032000
316. Sanvein                                             : 0.134805   01   0   0   0.032000
318. Satazius / Satazius Next                            : 0.134382   01   1   0   0.015385
319. Task Force Kampas                                   : 0.132245   01   0   0   0.030769
319. Return of the Invaders                              : 0.132245   01   0   0   0.030769
319. Akkanvader / Space Invaders '95                     : 0.132245   01   0   0   0.030769
319. Fantastic Danmaku Festival II                       : 0.132245   01   0   0   0.030769
323. E.D.F.: Earth Defense Force                         : 0.132105   01   0   0   0.030702
324. Vimana                                              : 0.128016   01   0   0   0.028736
325. Space Invaders Extreme                              : 0.127983   01   1   0   0.012308
325. GG Aleste                                           : 0.127983   01   1   0   0.012308
325. Ordyne                                              : 0.127983   01   1   0   0.012308
328. Steredenn: Binary Stars                             : 0.125847   01   0   0   0.027692
329. Vritra Hexa                                         : 0.123714   01   0   0   0.026667
330. Guxt                                                : 0.122984   01   0   0   0.026316
331. Star Hunter DX                                      : 0.121585   01   1   0   0.009231
332. Razion                                              : 0.119448   01   0   0   0.024615
332. Mad Shark                                           : 0.119448   01   0   0   0.024615
332. eXceed 3rd - Jade Penetrate                         : 0.119448   01   0   0   0.024615
332. Supercharged Robot Vulkaiser                        : 0.119448   01   0   0   0.024615
336. Star Soldier (GC/PS2)                               : 0.118168   01   0   0   0.024000
337. Shock Troopers                                      : 0.117772   01   0   0   0.023810
338. Eco Fighters                                        : 0.115308   01   0   0   0.022624
338. Carrier Air Wing / U.S. Navy                        : 0.115308   01   0   0   0.022624
340. Salamander / Life Force (NES)                       : 0.115186   01   1   0   0.006154
341. Uridium 2                                           : 0.113222   01   0   0   0.021622
342. Centipede                                           : 0.113049   01   0   0   0.021538
342. Super SWIV                                          : 0.113049   01   0   0   0.021538
342. Darius II (MD)                                      : 0.113049   01   0   0   0.021538
345. Raiden V                                            : 0.111886   01   0   0   0.020979
346. U.N. Squadron / Area 88 (ARC)                       : 0.111799   01   1   0   0.004525
347. Halley's Comet                                      : 0.111712   01   0   0   0.020896
348. Senjo no Okami II / Mercs                           : 0.107870   01   0   0   0.019048
349. Vritra                                              : 0.106651   01   0   0   0.018462
349. Earth Defense Force (SNES)                          : 0.106651   01   0   0   0.018462
349. Gyruss                                              : 0.106651   01   0   0   0.018462
352. Star Soldier R                                      : 0.104113   01   0   0   0.017241
352. Assault                                             : 0.104113   01   0   0   0.017241
354. Phantasmagoria Trues                                : 0.103767   00   0   1   0.025281
355. Vasara                                              : 0.102389   00   3   0   0.000000
356. Formation Armed F                                   : 0.100252   01   0   0   0.015385
357. Xevious: Fardraut Saga                              : 0.097549   01   0   0   0.014085
358. Sky Force Anniversary                               : 0.093854   01   0   0   0.012308
358. Gun-Nac                                             : 0.093854   01   0   0   0.012308
358. Steel Empire                                        : 0.093854   01   0   0   0.012308
361. Vacant Ark                                          : 0.088449   01   0   0   0.009709
362. Gorf                                                : 0.088191   01   0   0   0.009585
363. Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth                       : 0.087455   01   0   0   0.009231
363. Sonic Boom                                          : 0.087455   01   0   0   0.009231
363. Galaga '88                                          : 0.087455   01   0   0   0.009231
363. Sky Kid                                             : 0.087455   01   0   0   0.009231
363. Over Horizon                                        : 0.087455   01   0   0   0.009231
368. Raging Blasters                                     : 0.085853   00   0   1   0.016667
369. Otomedius G                                         : 0.082802   01   0   0   0.006993
370. Gemini Wing                                         : 0.082123   01   0   0   0.006667
371. Waifu Discovered 2                                  : 0.081057   01   0   0   0.006154
371. Elemental Master                                    : 0.081057   01   0   0   0.006154
371. Mystic Square [Touhou 5]                            : 0.081057   01   0   0   0.006154
371. Dangerous Seed                                      : 0.081057   01   0   0   0.006154
371. Subterranean Animism [Touhou 11]                    : 0.081057   01   0   0   0.006154
371. Drainus                                             : 0.081057   01   0   0   0.006154
371. Metal Hawk                                          : 0.081057   01   0   0   0.006154
378. StellaVanity                                        : 0.077977   01   0   0   0.004673
379. USAAF Mustang                                       : 0.077669   01   0   0   0.004525
380. Phelios                                             : 0.075381   01   0   0   0.003425
381. L-Dis                                               : 0.074658   01   0   0   0.003077
381. TwinBee Da! (PSP)                                   : 0.074658   01   0   0   0.003077
381. Smash TV                                            : 0.074658   01   0   0   0.003077
381. River Raid                                          : 0.074658   01   0   0   0.003077
381. GG Aleste II                                        : 0.074658   01   0   0   0.003077
386. R-Type III: The Third Lightning                     : 0.068259   00   2   0   0.000000
386. Zero Wing                                           : 0.068259   00   2   0   0.000000
386. Space Invaders                                      : 0.068259   00   2   0   0.000000
386. Grand Cross: ReNovation                             : 0.068259   00   2   0   0.000000
386. Bullet Soul                                         : 0.068259   00   2   0   0.000000
386. Devil Engine                                        : 0.068259   00   2   0   0.000000
386. Gleylancer                                          : 0.068259   00   2   0   0.000000
393. Super Stardust Ultra                                : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Cotton: Fantastic Night Dreams (ARC/PCE)            : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Battle Mania Daiginjou                              : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Schildmaid MX                                       : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Fire Barrel                                         : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Storm Blade                                         : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Shoot 1Up                                           : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Silver Surfer                                       : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Gynoug                                              : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Super Fantasy Zone                                  : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. RefleX                                              : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. ring^-27                                            : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Diadra Empty                                        : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Nemesis (GB)                                        : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Thunder Force II                                    : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Soldner X2: Final Prototype                         : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Ketsui Death Label                                  : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Fire Lancer                                         : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Dr Toppel's Adventure                               : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Gaia Seed: Project Seed Trap                        : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Black Bird                                          : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Platypus                                            : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Graceful Explosion Machine                          : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Marimo -VS- I.A.S.                                  : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Space Dungeon                                       : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Hacha Mecha Fighter                                 : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Berzerk                                             : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Strikers 1945 Plus                                  : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Section Z                                           : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. King & Balloon                                      : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Final Soldier                                       : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Asteroids                                           : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Pocky & Rocky Reshrined                             : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Zangeki Warp                                        : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Project S-11                                        : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Neo Geo Heroes Ultimate Shooting                    : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Tempest 2000                                        : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Assault Shell                                       : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Vastynex                                            : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Thunder Dragon                                      : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Dead End City                                       : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Mega Typhoon                                        : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Sophstar                                            : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000
393. Saint Dragon                                        : 0.034130   00   1   0   0.000000

[Angry Hina]

1. It's not borderline insanely difficult in a sinister and sadistic fashion (I like and enjoy the insanity, but most others probably don't)
2. No unwanted powerups to avoid
3. Almost never feels cheap or unfair and recovery is extremely well designed (except for that one section with the two large ships on the second stage on loops where dying is very very bad)
4. It might have a better soundtrack, depending on if you prefer the more energetic music of Hishouzame over the typically more solemn music of Same!, but both are excellent and highly recommended, as usual
5. Almost no randomness, which Same! has a lot of
6. No speed powerups

And these are very important things (at least for me). Even if point one doesnt really count because there are many ways to play the game with lower difficulty.

[Lemnear]

Always sensed that, since you suggested Kyukyoku Tiger
Uemura just confirmed.
But even Batsugun that you discredit so much does a similar thing (without checkpoints).

Batsugun is completely different from all other Toaplan games. Batsugun is a good game, but it lacks the super tight enemy placement and stage design of every other Toaplan game aside from Zero Wing. Batsugun also is contrary to the design of most Toaplan games in that the other Toaplan games were designed with the stages as the main focus of the game and the bosses are a bonus, but Batsugun seems more like the bosses are the main focus. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the first three stages are so short that it almost feels like the first half of the game is a boss rush type of thing.

I'm not sure at all...excluding the first stage which is ridiculous (both in Batsugun and Special), from stage 3 onwards they require some memorization.
I prefer shorter stages...i hate how long is the Stage 5.
Surprised that i LOVE the loops .

PS: I also like that the game allows you to improvise a bit.

[Acid]

Thanks for your hard work. These lists have been so useful for many years.

Ginga Force up to 83. Nice.

[Lemnear]

Thanks for your hard work. These lists have been so useful for many years.

Ginga Force up to 83. Nice.

Right! And not only here.
This is the top list with the most recognition on the internet, something that should be in the articles of gaming publications, but instead they write insignificant articles on unfounded rumors lol.

[Some-Mist]

thunder dragon 2 was so close to making it again and you got some other real gems sitting there right at the cusp.

I want to include espgaluda II in my list (my favorite ESP game) but I'm not sure where to fit it in. I've also been sinking time into saidaioujou again the past couple of months and I might try to squeeze that in again next time. the arrange (xbox 360) mode is a real blast and I'm itching to climb that leaderboard. might be my third favorite arrange mode behind pink sweets and espgaluda II.

on the other end of the spectrum, I was messing around with futari arrange a few weeks ago too and it's pretty dang weak tbh

my #1 and #4
038. Muchi Muchi Pork!
048. Ibara

[RobHimself]

my #1 and #4
038. Muchi Muchi Pork!
048. Ibara

Problem with Ibara is there isn't a good modern re-release so it's not likely to gain popularity.

[Technicolor]

- I never really noticed before, but there are relatively few titles that I'd be inclined to consider "accessible" on the list, especially near the very top; opinions obviously vary on what exactly fits that definition, though I imagine few would include the likes of Garegga, DOJ and Ketsui. You do see more "approachable" entries further down, though I find that a bit counterintuitive, as you'd expect the "can be hardcore, but easy to get into" titles to get the most votes overall, since they theoretically appeal to a wider audience. Interesting to wonder how that doesn't quite show up in the final tally.

Is this really that surprising? It feels like common knowledge around here that a lot of the established regulars around here are people who trend older and have been involved with the genre for years by this point. If we're defining accessibility in terms of game difficulty, that matters little when you've been playing a shmup for that long; you've already accessed the things you like about it. (I'd personally call that "approachability" and save "accessibility" for pure disability discussion-- in which case Cave comes out a lot stronger, but Garegga still seems anomalous based on the bullet visibility alone.)

People are pointing out the influence of recent releases, though. Maybe I'm at least a little wrong? The genre does tend to attract a certain hardcore crowd, such is its reputation, and so the newcomers would reflect that too.

[BulletMagnet]

Is this really that surprising? It feels like common knowledge around here that a lot of the established regulars around here are people who trend older and have been involved with the genre for years by this point.

That's surely a significant element at work, and I'm certainly not surprised that titles noted for their challenge appear perennially on the list, but intuitively (for whatever that's worth) I'd still expect the titles that can appeal to both the hardcore and more casual crowds would be the ones to cobble together the votes to appear at the very top of the list; perhaps the x-factor is the variable weight given to individual entries, as more experienced types may heavily favor their longtime top choices while others might spread the proverbial wealth around more evenly. Of course, considering that it's impossible to precisely pin down which games count as "approachable", let alone which players qualify as "hardcore" there's no real way to quantify this, but I still find it kind of interesting to mull over for a bit.

[Lemnear]

- I never really noticed before, but there are relatively few titles that I'd be inclined to consider "accessible" on the list, especially near the very top; opinions obviously vary on what exactly fits that definition, though I imagine few would include the likes of Garegga, DOJ and Ketsui. You do see more "approachable" entries further down, though I find that a bit counterintuitive, as you'd expect the "can be hardcore, but easy to get into" titles to get the most votes overall, since they theoretically appeal to a wider audience. Interesting to wonder how that doesn't quite show up in the final tally.

Is this really that surprising? It feels like common knowledge around here that a lot of the established regulars around here are people who trend older and have been involved with the genre for years by this point. If we're defining accessibility in terms of game difficulty, that matters little when you've been playing a shmup for that long; you've already accessed the things you like about it. (I'd personally call that "approachability" and save "accessibility" for pure disability discussion-- in which case Cave comes out a lot stronger, but Garegga still seems anomalous based on the bullet visibility alone.)

People are pointing out the influence of recent releases, though. Maybe I'm at least a little wrong? The genre does tend to attract a certain hardcore crowd, such is its reputation, and so the newcomers would reflect that too.

I rated Ketsui as 1# and i'm not a pro shmups player of any kind...i rated it high because the game is so incredibly-well-tuned//exquisitely crafted in every millisecond of gameplay...that...is undeniably fun, even for non-pro players or non-extreme hardcore players.
But maybe my parameters are different from yours (Fun, Engagement, Accessibility/Difficulty, Design, Music etc.).

[Technicolor]

I should probably clarify that I didn't vote myself here- I don't feel nearly confident enough in my experience to have a real opinion yet. I do feel well-read enough on the forum thread history to comment on that though, which is more where I come from here.

snip

This does tie into the second possibility I was getting at... which I should probably elaborate on.

I've seen at least a few people here testify that they got into this genre explicitly because they were excited by the genre's reputation for difficulty. Not to assume you're that sort of player (I'm not), but your being here at all would at least imply that it hasn't scared you away from these games. I think that that reputation tends to filter out the sorts of players who find that sort of challenge demoralizing- regardless of whether or not shmups really are that difficult- and thus even the newcomers who do come into the genre are less likely to value approachability as a crucial aspect of it. In which case...yes, the fun factor and overall design chops would become much more important to voting! Ketsui does look super fun and I'm looking forward to playing it someday soon.

There are other factors as well of course, such as your comment about a shmup's legacy possibly swinging votes. The age of this tradition is another thing. I remember conversations around the last few lists about beginner-friendly clears having a lot of currency in the early lists and falling off over time- I think the Thunderforce games were cited as an example?

[Angry Hina]

I voted TF III very high. I think its a remarkable achievement to create an accessable game without feeling lazy designed (like Darius Twin).

Its easy to forget about how great a game felt back then before you dived deeper into the genre but I try to do not^^

[Lemnear]

I should probably clarify that I didn't vote myself here- I don't feel nearly confident enough in my experience to have a real opinion yet. I do feel well-read enough on the forum thread history to comment on that though, which is more where I come from here.

snip

This does tie into the second possibility I was getting at... which I should probably elaborate on.

I've seen at least a few people here testify that they got into this genre explicitly because they were excited by the genre's reputation for difficulty. Not to assume you're that sort of player (I'm not), but your being here at all would at least imply that it hasn't scared you away from these games. I think that that reputation tends to filter out the sorts of players who find that sort of challenge demoralizing- regardless of whether or not shmups really are that difficult- and thus even the newcomers who do come into the genre are less likely to value approachability as a crucial aspect of it. In which case...yes, the fun factor and overall design chops would become much more important to voting! Ketsui does look super fun and I'm looking forward to playing it someday soon.

There are other factors as well of course, such as your comment about a shmup's legacy possibly swinging votes. The age of this tradition is another thing. I remember conversations around the last few lists about beginner-friendly clears having a lot of currency in the early lists and falling off over time- I think the Thunderforce games were cited as an example?

I think a game suitable for beginners can show truly masterful design... but at the same time, the game cannot express its maximum SHMUP potential, because it's tailor-made for beginners (IMO).

[To Far Away Times]

I voted TF III very high. I think its a remarkable achievement to create an accessable game without feeling lazy designed (like Darius Twin).

Its easy to forget about how great a game felt back then before you dived deeper into the genre but I try to do not^^

High five!

Thunderforce III is one of my all time favorite games. It's a comfort game that I can return to time and time again when I just need to blow shit up and feel good doing it. I think the difficulty is perfect for what it is, but also, I think the game is just very engaging and fun to play.

For the games that made my Top 25 list I took difficulty into consideration, not as an overall level of challenge, but how appropriate was the level of challenge relative to what the game was going for. A game like Darius Burst AC got a boost from being a little something for everyone with 10 possible final stages of increasing difficulty - a feature I hope the series keeps going forward. Likewise, Thunderforce III makes sense as an easier game since it's really about the experience and the feel of playing it. DDP DOJ sets out to be a highly challenging "pure arcade experience" and I think it does that very well. A game like R-Type is elevated by it's difficulty, which is designed to force you to interact with its world class stage design. R-Type also rewards memorization while being fair to the player, and once you have a plan it is usually fairly easy and consistent to execute.

Likewise, Garegga is a bit off putting for me because of how much of it is so esoteric. Which I guess must be why people love it, but it definitely feels like an outlier on the list.

[Angry Hina]

I voted TF III very high. I think its a remarkable achievement to create an accessable game without feeling lazy designed (like Darius Twin).

Its easy to forget about how great a game felt back then before you dived deeper into the genre but I try to do not^^

High five!

Thunderforce III is one of my all time favorite games. It's a comfort game that I can return to time and time again when I just need to blow shit up and feel good doing it. I think the difficulty is perfect for what it is, but also, I think the game is just very engaging and fun to play.

Top 5 To Far Away Times:

[25] [Mushihimesama Futari 1.5]
[24] [R-Type]
[23] [Thunderforce III]
[22] [DoDonPachi Daioujou]
[21] [ChoRenSha 68K]

Top 5 Angry Hina:

[25] R-Type Delta
[23] DoDonPachi DaiFukkatsu
[23] Thunder Force III (/AC)
[22] DoDonPachi SaiDaiOujou (inkl. 360 mode)
[22] Deathsmiles (ver 1.1 & MBL)

funny ^^

[To Far Away Times]

Top 5 To Far Away Times:

[25] [Mushihimesama Futari 1.5]
[24] [R-Type]
[23] [Thunderforce III]
[22] [DoDonPachi Daioujou]
[21] [ChoRenSha 68K]

Top 5 Angry Hina:

[25] R-Type Delta
[23] DoDonPachi DaiFukkatsu
[23] Thunder Force III (/AC)
[22] DoDonPachi SaiDaiOujou (inkl. 360 mode)
[22] Deathsmiles (ver 1.1 & MBL)

funny ^^

[ryu]

I rated Ketsui as 1# and i'm not a pro shmups player of any kind...i rated it high because the game is so incredibly-well-tuned//exquisitely crafted in every millisecond of gameplay...that...is undeniably fun, even for non-pro players or non-extreme hardcore players.

I don't get Ketsui. I played it very briefly in mame many years ago and didn't get it. I played it again for a couple of hours last night and this morning, and while I believe to understand it a little better now, I still don't get it. It encourages aggressive play where you can't just hang back in the lower part of the screen any longer, that much I think to understand now. But I keep getting sniped when I play aggressively. When I hang back the bullets get too dense and keep overwhelming me all the time. I thought this one was supposed to be easier to play for survival and I kind of see it in the boss fights, but the stages themselves are hell. The visuals and soundtrack are a bit stale in comparison to the DDP games, even if the ost has its moments. Dodonpachi and Daioujou hit me with their presentations the first time I played them. Ketsui just fails to impress the same way. I can see the game being fun when you've invested many dozen hours into it really know what you're doing, but fail to see how this is a fun game for novice players.
So, I really don't get it.

[Lemnear]

I rated Ketsui as 1# and i'm not a pro shmups player of any kind...i rated it high because the game is so incredibly-well-tuned//exquisitely crafted in every millisecond of gameplay...that...is undeniably fun, even for non-pro players or non-extreme hardcore players.

I don't get Kestui. I played it very briefly in mame many years ago and didn't get it. I played it again for a couple of hours last night and this morning, and while I believe to understand it a little better now, I still don't get it. It encourages aggressive play where you can't just hang back in the lower part of the screen any longer, that much I think to understand now. But I keep getting sniped when I play aggressively. When I hang back the bullets get too dense and keep overwhelming me all the time. I thought this one was supposed to be easier to play for survival and I kind of see it in the boss fights, but the stages themselves are hell. The visuals and soundtrack are a bit stale in comparison to the DDP games, even if the ost has its moments. Dodonpachi and Daioujou hit me with their presentations the first time I played them. Ketsui just fails to impress the same way. I can see the game being fun when you've invested many dozen hours into it really know what you're doing, but fail to see how this is a fun game for novice players.
So, I really don't get it.

Agree on the visual aspect...there are a bit too many helicopters in Ketsui and too few planes/ships (but is also a realistic setting compared to DDP)
Usually i don't care for scoring system and such.....but the scoring system in Ketsui it's like methadone.
A high risk, high reward close combat point-blank playstyle.
I don't know, it's one of the few games if not the ONLY one, where i can totally improvise at any time, and the result wont be death...is really easy to squeeze through bullet patterns, even when it seems impossible.
The only thing i hate about Ketsui is the Ura-Loop, what's the sense?

I never player any DDP outside of the first (PSX) and DonPachi...yet

[BulletMagnet]

IMO the one thing Ketsui offers to more casual players is a scoring system whose basics are fairly easy to get into once you have a general idea how they work; if you're not doing fancy boss techniques and crazy lock-on exploits and such all you need to know is "kill something/a few things up close with your regular shot to make the cubes get bigger, kill some other stuff with the lock-on to get some more big cubes before the timer runs down, repeat". You can pick and choose which occasions are sufficiently safe to go for some bonus points and try for more of them as you learn the game better, and don't have to worry about some oppressive Guwange-style game-long multiplier looming in the background.

Then, of course, there's pretty much everything else, heh.