20th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread

[Nifty]

Break time's over

Voting

Discussion Thread

With the preamble now taken care of, more regular discussion has been restored, i.e. this is where to go for general game talk or anything related to voting that isn't voting itself. There's no lack of material to cover since the event was last held, and with the Annual T25 reaching something of a landmark of its own, any mentions of happenings since are particularly encouraged as everyone gets back up to speed.

Initial category talk

As has been the case more often than not, there are a few things to touch on before we get going. The first point of consideration this year, as brought up last time, would be a mild reassessment of where the eligibility bounds for genre lines lie when it comes to more modern-esque titles, primarily top-down map-based roguelikes/rougelites. It's something that's difficult to attach a flat ruling to as there's often no one particular element that will set a game too far apart, some will fit in with little to no issue while others are likely a step or two beyond the marker. Also to take note of since the previous event is the proliferation of the additional subdivision of top-down autoshooters/"Survivor"-style shooters, which debatably adhere more closely in some ways to standard STG trends than those mentioned previously. I'm not looking to go into exhaustive detail over this, so I'd prefer to keep any discussion decently straightforward; upon some preliminary additional consideration my tendency would be towards a slightly more restrictive stance, if only to avoid potentially complicating the waters over something that's only likely to affect a few participants here at any time.

The other thing to re-mention is the handling of the process itself. My offer from last time

Basically what I want to propose is this: If there's someone(s) else who knows they should have the free time and who'd like to try and get the hang of organising and running this shindig, they can use this year's voting period to set up their own calculation system in their program/language of choice, and then run it in tandem with mine while I finalise the results, to see how much of a safe handle they've got on it and so they get an idea of how much work/time/fiddliness it will take. (I'd prefer any definite offers be set via PM initially, so I can further organise from there.) I'll discuss everything else as I go through, but this will be the major thing I want to see that someone else can do for the time being. Failing that, I will be taking next year off and maintaining bi-yearly runnings from then on.

still stands, should anyone have personal interest in returning to a somewhat more frequent schedule. I've full confidence everyone else is ready to get their lists together and hasn't misremembered the new voting timing during the extended interlude.


Past results:
19th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2021
18th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2020
17th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2019
16th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2018
15th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2017
14th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2016
13th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2015
12th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2014
11th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2013
10th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2012
9th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2010ish
8th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2009
7th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2008
6th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2007
5th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2006
4th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2005
3rd Annual Top 25 Results: through 2004
2nd Annual Top 25 Results: through 2003
Inaugural Top 25 Results: through 2002

To link directly to your ballot (or any other post):

1. On the post in question, look at the upper left where the date stamp is. (I hope this is consistent across all themes.)
2. Right-click on the little sheet of paper to the left of the by Username text and copy the link address.
3. Make a link in your commentary post using that destination.

[Nahar]

Nice to have this going again!

[To Far Away Times]

Thanks for doing this, I'm sure this is a ton of work.

[NuclearPotato]

Ok, I guess I'll be the first one to discuss the topic at hand. I'm don't think I'm super keen on letting in top-down roguelikes/lites or VS-likes onto the poll, but I can at least see an argument for their inclusion; a lot of them tend to be born out of Smash TV and their ilk, which is allowed on the poll per the rules. A blanket exclusion would end up hitting a fair few games (Downwell and Star of Provence come to mind) that I do think could ultimately qualify for the shmup poll, so even if I don't see myself ever voting for anything like that on the poll, I'd be willing to hear the argument.

[Cultstorm]

The Binding of Isaac is one of my favorite games of all time, but I would never consider it a shmup.

I think it's better to stay away from these top-down rogue lites, for the purposes of this project

[Lemnear]

The other thing to re-mention is the handling of the process itself. My offer from last time

Basically what I want to propose is this: If there's someone(s) else who knows they should have the free time and who'd like to try and get the hang of organising and running this shindig, they can use this year's voting period to set up their own calculation system in their program/language of choice, and then run it in tandem with mine while I finalise the results, to see how much of a safe handle they've got on it and so they get an idea of how much work/time/fiddliness it will take. (I'd prefer any definite offers be set via PM initially, so I can further organise from there.) I'll discuss everything else as I go through, but this will be the major thing I want to see that someone else can do for the time being. Failing that, I will be taking next year off and maintaining bi-yearly runnings from then on.

I don't even know how the current system works, so i can't help on that front. If possible i can help in any other tasks Sir.

[To Far Away Times]

Ok, I guess I'll be the first one to discuss the topic at hand. I'm don't think I'm super keen on letting in top-down roguelikes/lites or VS-likes onto the poll, but I can at least see an argument for their inclusion; a lot of them tend to be born out of Smash TV and their ilk, which is allowed on the poll per the rules. A blanket exclusion would end up hitting a fair few games (Downwell and Star of Provence come to mind) that I do think could ultimately qualify for the shmup poll, so even if I don't see myself ever voting for anything like that on the poll, I'd be willing to hear the argument.

When I first played Vampire Survivors I definitely got shmup vibes, rather right or wrong, and thought it was a clever game that found a way to take shmup mechanics and make it into something that had more mass market appeal.

I consider Robotron and Smash TV with their 8 way independent aiming to be their own genre, since tight aiming for shots isn't really a big part of shmups in my mind, and depsite the "shoot em up" moniker, what really sets these games apart is the dodging focus. I would argue Robotron and Smash TV are much more focused on "shooting" than "dodging." And on that front, I might actually consider Vampire Survivors more of a shmup than Robotron or Smash TV since Vampire Survivors takes aiming out of the equation entirely and is all about dodging (and leveling up.)

I also wouldn't consider Star of Providence (AKA the game formerly known as Monolith), to be a shmup for the same reasons as Robotron and Smash TV, thought it is admittedly more of a borderline case since there are some dodging heavy sections and some auto aiming weapons. It is however, a very awesome game that everyone should play.

I am also a bit of traditionalist and I wouldn't vote for games like Vampire Survivors anyway, since I think that even though it has shmup elements in it, it really is it's own thing and part of a new genre. People don't come to this forum to discuss Vampire Survivors, there's a pretty specific old school shmup focus based on games that resemble horizontal scrollers like Gradius or vertical scrollers like DDP. I can go as far as top down "walk 'em ups" with push scrolling (like Pocky and Rocky, Twinkle Tale, and Mamorukun Curse) since those are still very much shmups just without the forced scrolling.

[reckon luck]

Vampire Survivors etc. don't feel like they fit here IMO. I've voted for Star of Providence and Nova Drift in the past but would understand if they were declared ineligible. I strongly feel that straight arcade twin stick shooters should stay in.

[MrChiggins]

Hard no on VS-likes being eligible.
Soft no on roguelikes/lites being eligible.

This year's gonna be my first time voting and I'm so ready and so stoked. I've had a top 25 shmups notepad document going for about a year now, and I've 1-ALLed every game on the list at this point. Feels good.

Raiden Fighters Jet is criminally underrated. <3

edit: I voted in the 10th and 13th polls . But seriously thanks a bunch for doing this Nifty.

[Steven]

I still say Space Harrier should be eligible.

[m.sniffles.esq]

I still say Space Harrier should be eligible.

Wait, I thought Harrier was in, due to it's standing as the 'original'. But then subsequent rails (Star Fox, et al) were out. Did that change?

[Nifty]

Anything historical I can find about Space Harrier suggests it's never been allowed as such, and I can't see any vote results for it either, which I would say means precedent has been maintained in that regard. The most borderline game that would count for that category-ish would probably be something like Buck Rogers where the player is always angled just slightly upwards enough to not slip into a different plane of fire.

I won't be taking away anything already distinctly listed as eligible, and I do believe Monolith/SoP at least should fall on the acceptable side of whatever I do change (Nova Drift definitely does), especially given the amount of support it's already received. Again I do think the issue really lies is which direction a given game is more focussed in, Vampire Survivors itself is probably a bit heavy on the roguery but then I get random games showing up in my Steam queue that look like they may as well just be regular twin-stick shooters. They might be manageable on a per-case basis at least, all the other more well-known examples so far are probably safe excludes now which would prevent anything too out of place showing up on the initial results page, and I'm reasonably confident I've figured out how to go about penning that in now too.

Thanks for the advice everyone, I'll post again soon about the next phase of discussion for while I'm getting the vote thread proper prepared.

[Steven]

Cool, thanks. If its reason for exclusion was the use of the Z axis, Zaxxon, which also uses it, is eligible, so I don't see why Space Harrier/After Burner/etc. can't be. I made my list a few months ago with Space Harrier on it but then checked the rules from last time and was sad to have to replace it with something else. If Space Harrier-likes become eligible, it or After Burner II is absolutely getting a vote from me.

[Lemnear]

Technically in Vampire Survivor you can't shoot on your own, so is not a "shooting" game in that sense...
Games that i don't consider Shoot'Em Up/STG/SHMUPS:

Space Harrier/Rez/Sin&Punishment/Panzer Dragoon/etc. (Rail Shooter)
Out Zone/Binding of Isaac/Chaos Engine/Hotline Miami/Etc. (Top-Down Run and Gun)
Vampire Survivor/20 Minutes Until Dawn/etc. (whatever they are)

Personal modest opinion

[m.sniffles.esq]

Anything historical I can find about Space Harrier suggests it's never been allowed as such

Okay. My eyes sort of glaze while reading the circuitous discussions of what is/isn't a 's h m u p', so I probably stopped reading during the 22 seconds where it was allowed eight years ago, before being immediately disallowed again.

I also seem to remember something similar with tube shooters. In that they weren't allowed, but then Tempest and it's sequels were due to historical significance (but then probably got changed to weren't again when I stopped paying attention)

[qmish]

I don't see why Space Harrier/After Burner/etc. can't be. I made my list a few months ago with Space Harrier on it but then checked the rules from last time and was sad to have to replace it with something else. If Space Harrier-likes become eligible, it or After Burner II is absolutely getting a vote from me.

Isn't it, eh, a different genre? It's called "rail shooter" afaik (do not mistake with "lightgun shooter" like House of the Dead, and "crosshair shooter" like Wild Guns).
Either way, I prefer Rez/Panzer Dragoon over Star Fox, for sure

[Some-Mist]

whoa! glad to have ya back and runnin it nifty.

I took a few of the final years off of voting since I wasn't terribly active, but I'm excited to get a list together again for the first time since 2018

[Steven]

I don't see why Space Harrier/After Burner/etc. can't be. I made my list a few months ago with Space Harrier on it but then checked the rules from last time and was sad to have to replace it with something else. If Space Harrier-likes become eligible, it or After Burner II is absolutely getting a vote from me.

Isn't it, eh, a different genre? It's called "rail shooter" afaik (do not mistake with "lightgun shooter" like House of the Dead, and "crosshair shooter" like Wild Guns).
Either way, I prefer Rez/Panzer Dragoon over Star Fox, for sure

I consider Space Harrier to be a shooting game, and I also consider it to have very much in common with a typical side-scrolling STG like R-Type, so much so that I can't think of any reasons at all that it shouldn't be eligible.

Making it eligible would open up all sorts of questions, like Rez, Panzer Dragoon, and Star Fox like you mentioned, and I have no idea where to draw the line, but I will say that I'd seriously consider Panzer Dragoon and especially Zwei as well should they become eligible. I somehow doubt that anything will change and that Space Harrier/Panzer Dragoon/etc. will remain ineligible, but we'll see. Nothing will ever stop the final list (not my list, I mean the end results after all of the votes are counted) from being the typical CAVE-fest with a few guest appearances from other developers, but I'd like to see Space Harrier make it.

This is also the part where I admit that I prefer After Burner II over Space Harrier, even if Space Harrier is probably the better game.

[Leander]

Soft no on roguelikes/lites being eligible.

Roguelike/lite isn't really a genre, more a subgenre/flavour. You can have a Shmup Roguelike or a Deck Builder Roguelike or a Traditional Roguelike (aka. "Roguelike" as the term originally meant.)
I think it would be hard to argue that Steredenn should not be allowed to be voted upon, especially if Nova Drift is eligible - which I would argue is not very shmup-like at all considering the control-scheme.

[Lemnear]

I don't see why Space Harrier/After Burner/etc. can't be. I made my list a few months ago with Space Harrier on it but then checked the rules from last time and was sad to have to replace it with something else. If Space Harrier-likes become eligible, it or After Burner II is absolutely getting a vote from me.

Isn't it, eh, a different genre? It's called "rail shooter" afaik (do not mistake with "lightgun shooter" like House of the Dead, and "crosshair shooter" like Wild Guns).
Either way, I prefer Rez/Panzer Dragoon over Star Fox, for sure

I consider Space Harrier to be a shooting game, and I also consider it to have very much in common with a typical side-scrolling STG like R-Type, so much so that I can't think of any reasons at all that it shouldn't be eligible.

Making it eligible would open up all sorts of questions, like Rez, Panzer Dragoon, and Star Fox like you mentioned, and I have no idea where to draw the line, but I will say that I'd seriously consider Panzer Dragoon and especially Zwei as well should they become eligible. I somehow doubt that anything will change and that Space Harrier/Panzer Dragoon/etc. will remain ineligible, but we'll see. Nothing will ever stop the final list (not my list, I mean the end results after all of the votes are counted) from being the typical CAVE-fest with a few guest appearances from other developers, but I'd like to see Space Harrier make it.

This is also the part where I admit that I prefer After Burner II over Space Harrier, even if Space Harrier is probably the better game.

At this point i vote for Titanfall 2 and Unreal Tournament III. They are shooting games no?
The reason to ineligibility for Space Harrier/Panzer Dragon Etc.. is that you move in X/Y axis while the auto-scrolling is on Z axis...in a Shoot'Em Up the Z axis doesn't exist..

[Steven]

in a Shoot'Em Up the Z axis doesn't exist.

Then explain Xevious, RayForce, Zaxxon, RayCrisis, RayStorm, Kamui, Soukyuugurentai, and others that use the Z axis.

[Lemnear]

in a Shoot'Em Up the Z axis doesn't exist.

Then explain Xevious, RayForce, Zaxxon, RayCrisis, RayStorm, Kamui, Soukyuugurentai, and others that use the Z axis.

Yes. (i don't know Soukyuugurentai btw)
You move on a X/Y Axis while the scrolling axis is X (like a normal vertical shooter), and not Z.
Technically you can shoot bombs (like Xevious/RayForce) to the "Z" axis, but not moving in that direction. While in a Rail Shooter you can shoot and auto-scroll to Z.
Second difference is the bullet provenience.
In Rail Shooters they come from the Z axis exclusively, while in Xevious/RayForce & Friends, they come as usual (X/Y) , PLUS the Z-background sometimes.
IMO

[reckon luck]

eh, if your definition of shmups excludes Out Zone then I think you're being too strict.

[Lemnear]

eh, if your definition of shmups excludes Out Zone then I think you're being too strict.

But if Out Zone is, also other "top-down run&gun" are. Or the definition should be more "restricted", or anything with a gun is a shooter .
I don't know if Out Zone was among the 350 entries the last year.
I think the general consensus in more in line with what i said °^° (judging by the votes)

EDIT: oh there is [061. Out Zone]..at least in line with "Rail Shooters" ...oh well i think that this year Binding of Isaac will get a lot of votes.

[Steven]

in a Shoot'Em Up the Z axis doesn't exist.

Then explain Xevious, RayForce, Zaxxon, RayCrisis, RayStorm, Kamui, Soukyuugurentai, and others that use the Z axis.

Yes. (i don't know Soukyuugurentai btw)
You move on a X/Y Axis while the scrolling axis is X (like a normal vertical shooter), and not Z.
Technically you can shoot bombs (like Xevious/RayForce) to the "Z" axis, but not moving in that direction. While in a Rail Shooter you can shoot and auto-scroll to Z.
Second difference is the bullet provenience.
In Rail Shooters they come from the Z axis exclusively, while in Xevious/RayForce & Friends, they come as usual (X/Y) , PLUS the Z-background sometimes.
IMO

lol Soukyuugurentai's entire 3rd stage is a descent into the Z axis.

Also Out Zone bitch slaps the shit out of all of those silly CAVE games. Out Zone is so fucking cool that half of those games are said to even use parts of Out Zone's code. That's how badass Out Zone is.

[Lemnear]

lol Soukyuugurentai's entire 3rd stage is a descent into the Z axis.

Also Out Zone bitch slaps the shit out of all of those silly CAVE games. Out Zone is so fucking cool that half of those games are said to even use parts of Out Zone's code. That's how badass Out Zone is.

Let me search for Soukyuugurentai!
I thought you liked CAVE

EDIT: i think you mean the 3rd stage of Kamui?

[Steven]

lol Soukyuugurentai's entire 3rd stage is a descent into the Z axis.

Also Out Zone bitch slaps the shit out of all of those silly CAVE games. Out Zone is so fucking cool that half of those games are said to even use parts of Out Zone's code. That's how badass Out Zone is.

I thought you liked CAVE

They're... okay.

Their scoring systems are annoying and boring and I hate them, so I don't take them too seriously, except for Dangun Feveron, which is the best one. Unfortunately those games are mostly built around the scoring system, so if, like me, you don't like chaining or whatever...

[TransatlanticFoe]

What sets Space Harrier apart from Starwing and Panzer Dragoon is in the latter two you're primarily moving a cursor around to shoot stuff. They're more like Cabal or Dynamite Duke than what's classically seen as a shmup. Hell, Starwing has a first person option and Panzer Dragoon you have 360 aim and can barely move your dragon enough to dodge anything. Space Harrier, you move your dude around the screen as it scrolls - shooting ahead of you and dodging enemies, their fire and environmental hazards. It's R-Type viewed from behind the ship (and coked off its tits). It's a shoot 'em up!

As I see it, if the game is exclusively moving an avatar around in 3rd person while shooting stuff and dodging shit - it's a shmup. If you're mostly running a crosshair around the screen, it's not. The moment you base it around stuff like skill cooldowns (as Vampire Survivors seems to do, not that I'd heard of it prior to this thread), exploration (Operation Logic Bomb), platforming (Metal Slug) or carrying out strategic mission objectives (be it something like Desert Strike or more like Gain Ground), it's no longer primarily about shooting stuff and thus not a shmup.

Basically the existing rules exclude "rail shooters" and Space Harrier seems to have historically been dumped into that category, erroneously in my opinion. I doubt the phrase was even a thing until people worked back to Space Harrier from stuff like Starwing and Virtua Cop (when they should have worked back to something like Dead Angle instead). Space Harrier is no more or less "on rails" than Flying Shark is! Like Zaxxon, it's a shmup that uses a non-standard viewing angle.

[Steven]

What sets Space Harrier apart from Starwing and Panzer Dragoon is in the latter two you're primarily moving a cursor around to shoot stuff. They're more like Cabal or Dynamite Duke than what's classically seen as a shmup. Hell, Starwing has a first person option and Panzer Dragoon you have 360 aim and can barely move your dragon enough to dodge anything. Space Harrier, you move your dude around the screen as it scrolls - shooting ahead of you and dodging enemies, their fire and environmental hazards. It's R-Type viewed from behind the ship (and coked off its tits). It's a shoot 'em up!

As I see it, if the game is exclusively moving an avatar around in 3rd person while shooting stuff and dodging shit - it's a shmup. If you're mostly running a crosshair around the screen, it's not. The moment you base it around stuff like skill cooldowns (as Vampire Survivors seems to do, not that I'd heard of it prior to this thread), exploration (Operation Logic Bomb), platforming (Metal Slug) or carrying out strategic mission objectives (be it something like Desert Strike or more like Gain Ground), it's no longer primarily about shooting stuff and thus not a shmup.

Basically the existing rules exclude "rail shooters" and Space Harrier seems to have historically been dumped into that category, erroneously in my opinion. I doubt the phrase was even a thing until people worked back to Space Harrier from stuff like Starwing and Virtua Cop (when they should have worked back to something like Dead Angle instead). Space Harrier is no more or less "on rails" than Flying Shark is! Like Zaxxon, it's a shmup that uses a non-standard viewing angle.

Thank you so much.

I never even thought about Gain Ground, though. That game is weird and cool! I like it, but I am ultra terrible at it.

[Lemnear]

(Xevious/RayForce/Kamui/etc.)


Enemies and bullets could shoot and spawn from each axis, you can shoot on all 3 axis by the way (Bomb/Lock-On Layer).


and


(Panzer Dragoon/Rez/Sin&Punishment/etc.)


In Rail Shooters there is only ONE direction bullets and enemies can come from, it's in front of you, and they will never spawn or shoot from the sides of the screen. You can shoot only on the Z Axis. (Fire and Lock-On).


The only real exception is Metal Hawk, with movement/enemies on ALL the 3 axis.