Analogue 3D - new N64 console

[kamiboy]

Looks like those dastardly fellows are back at it again:
https://www.analogue.co/3d

This is certainly a more challenging system to recreate than anything they’ve tried so far. Honestly I think a lot of people might start to get miffed if they keep announcing new projects without giving some of their previous projects some long awaited features first.

Things to note on this newest hardware of theirs though, 4K output! Finally!

Given the complexity of N64 FPGA implementation and the long overdue 4K output, it seems that they are likely going with a new FPGA chip in this generation of their hardware offerings. Likely one they could spin other console recreations from the 32 bit generation. This could also mean a hefty price increase compared to their previous console hardware offerings?

One worrying thing to note, the small print says no OpenFPGA 2 support. In other words this new toy will not become every owners new 4K misterFPGA replacement it seems. A shame and waste of potential.

Given that stock N64’s come sans RGB output without modifications, and the blurry pixel filtering shenanigans that haven’t aged too well and can only be “remedied” with modern hardware mods, I’d say this new piece of kit is going to hit a nice sweet spot for many.

I certainly am interested, but cautiously apprehensive regarding the prospects of how long it will take before the firmware side of things reaches a satisfactory level of maturity.

[ZellSF]

With the MiSTer as an alternative, not sure they can risk a hefty price increase. Also think the N64 is the console where you're the least likely to see the difference between 1080p and 4K.

[kamiboy]

I have a feeling they are going to sell out in no time in spite of these facts.

I am mildly enthusiastic to experience the CRT emulation 4k display output mode they tout on their site. If they are as well implemented as what they offer on their Pocket then I his might just be the retro console I would actually want to use via HDMI, instead of exclusively via analogue RGB on a CRT.

[Hoagtech]

The name suggests it will be an era of console support and not just the N64.

The brief description leaves a lot of questions like is the 4k going to be upscaled 240p or sharp high resolution polygons in 4k like emulators?

If its only 4k upscaling then I'm not interested as I've already had the chance to test the Retrotink 4k in person and am looking forward to purchasing one.

Exciting someone to take a stab at it though

[bobrocks95]

The brief description leaves a lot of questions like is the 4k going to be upscaled 240p or sharp high resolution polygons in 4k like emulators?

I doubt it but you know, I never thought about that enhancement coming to an FPGA system. I'd think if it was straightforward though that MiSTer would have some higher-res rendering options on some 3D systems' cores- does it?

[orange808]

I would prefer authentic video output, but fully progressive 480p output (instead of 480i) in high res mode would welcome, assuming the framebuffer holds a complete 480p frame that can be easily displayed.

N64 software is often chuggy, so overclocking and improved frame rates would be a nice feature, but it might not be feasible on an affordable FPGA console without rom mods (to throttle the game loop appropriately while overclocking).

You'd need rom modifications for any meaningful visual enhancements as well. The original muddy textures look really awful with high res polys.

[Rulumi]

Given that stock N64’s come sans RGB output without modifications, and the blurry pixel filtering shenanigans that haven’t aged too well and can only be “remedied” with modern hardware mods, I’d say this new piece of kit is going to hit a nice sweet spot for many.

You can "de-blur" 320-wide games with optimal sampling on devices like the OSSC or the RetroTINK-5X. There's also the software patches and cheat codes that removes another part of the AA for people that wants even more unfiltered image.

[kamiboy]

Yes, I am aware of these approaches, but I am thinking since this will be a hardware recreation mitigation of the unnecessary blur could be implemented on a hardware level, not in software or after the fact like with the OSSC or other scalers. This should in theory enable a more elegant and clean looking result. Time will tell. Solutions closer to the hardware are already available via internal HDMI mods for the 64, but those are expensive and demand a high level of expertise to install.

As usual the Analogue offering is going to target a sweet spot of cost/convenience/elegance which appeals to a certain demographic that values those specific things. People who do not want to waste time fiddling with the a million choices and options in retro scalers, who do not want to pay hundreds to mod their N64 with internal HDMI mods and who do not want to own a CRT, and do not care for software emulation.

In regards to Analogue 3D being a new platform for 3D console offerings from them, that is what I suspect, but from the email it almost seems like they are specifically naming their N64 console Analogue 3D, which I thought was quite strange. Maybe they want to avoid 64 in the name to not anger the Nintender powers that be.

What are they going to name a potential PS1 console? Analogue Perspective Incorrect 3D? And the Saturn, Analogue Square Polygon 3D?

[ZellSF]

The brief description leaves a lot of questions like is the 4k going to be upscaled 240p or sharp high resolution polygons in 4k like emulators?

I doubt it but you know, I never thought about that enhancement coming to an FPGA system. I'd think if it was straightforward though that MiSTer would have some higher-res rendering options on some 3D systems' cores- does it?

The GBA core supports 2X rendering for scaling effects and the PSX core supports 24-bit rendering for color, but none of the 3D cores allow increasing rendering resolution.

I don't think this will either. They would advertise it if it that was the case.

[Rulumi]

Well, by what you said I guess you don't care much about software emulation.

But you can try playing around ParaLLEl N64 plugin for disabling parts of the VI pipeline and with an internal resolution upscaling with them as well for checking how that looks on a variety of games. And see if it seems like a good difference or not.

[kazuo]

Some outlets have confirmed via interviews of Analogue's founder/CEO that the system will allow you to turn anti-aliasing on and off, and possibly feature other toggle settings for deblur and the like. So that's pretty neat.

No 64DD support is kind of a bummer, though.

[kamiboy]

I guess the extra costs it would bring in terms of, likely, almost impossible to source bottom connectors and extra implementation complexity would not make it worthwhile when factoring in that only a tiny, tiny fraction of users would ever utilise any potential 64DD expansion functionality. Somewhat understandable, especially if they end up only pricing this modestly above their previous offerings, maybe around 300 or so, and completely understandable if they somehow manage to maintain the 250 price point.

[neorichieb1971]

I will get one.

I agree with youtubers though. I don't like the practice that Analogue build a quota that is short of demand. From a business perspective its a bad practice. Just build enough to meet preorders at the very least.

This whole thing about being notified and having to preorder within 30 seconds is just ridiculous.

[ZellSF]

What do you mean it's bad practice from a business perspective? Do you have any data to support that?

I don't like it either (and won't get one), but from a business perspective they appear to be doing quite well.

[kamiboy]

From a business point of view I think what they are doing makes sense. They are a small business, most likely with not much cash on hand. What they get in from pre-orders likely goes directly to pay suppliers for purchase of parts and labor for that batch.

Keeping the batch small no doubt makes things more manageable from a logistics and economical point of view. The FOMO is just a bonus and largely not helped by the fact that the retro scene is very much overrun by collectors whose level of interest is automatically piqued by rarity and limitedness of items.

I can easily imagine that if Analogue were not careful they could easily end up on the path towards potential and imminent insolvency. Consider for a second the chaos of the parts market in the last 3 years, and how just everything has had a pretty hefty price hike. Imagine if they had taken on a large order of units with parts that suddenly underwent a price hike of 10-20%, that would be a quick road to bankruptcy I am sure. Not to mention how some choice parts might just vanish off of the market, with no viable supplier left.

I think it is not trivial to juggle all these aspects, plus whatever else detail that I cannot even imagine in running a business like theirs. Given that they have run it successfully for as long as they have, and they have delivered, albeit some times a but delayed, on their promises, I think we can cut them a bit of slack.

[strayan]

From a business perspective its a bad practice.

I thought the whole point of privately owned business is you can do whatever you want.

When I ran a business I used to tell customers I didn’t want to go away and never come back. They would sometimes complain that the way I treated them was ‘poor practice’ and occasionally tried to lecture me about how they thought I should run my business. I would stand there an listen and then tell them I simply didn’t care about what they thought because I made a killing from my good customers “unlike you”. Sometimes they would email me a complaint and CC in other people. I would “reply all” and explain that not only are they now banned from my store permanently, anyone they’d CC’d in was also banned by mere association.

Consider minding your own business. If Analog want to run their business into the ground that’s their prerogative.

[spmbx]

Guilt by association, did you run a store in Pyongyang?

[neorichieb1971]

If you ask for the money up front which most would do, you could get the investment up front. Its not like they don't have a fan base from which to pull from. What they do, is ask for money up front whilst having a limited batch. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

This Analogue 3D will go up for pre-order and 2 months before release 50 of them will be on ebay for around double the price.

On the current business model, the scalpers probably make more money than the creator, the true fans that missed out will miss out or pay double. Then after the scalpers have had their way charging double Analogue say "we are doing one last run" WTF. If I were Analogue and I had no morals I'd just stick 100+ units to the side and just join the ebay scalpers and make even more money. There is nothing to stop you doing that.

According to youtubers (I'm not affected myself). Folk have bought analogue pockets and not received them, then you have new pockets being released just after the last one sold out. Then you have the particularly bad practice of charging $70 for shipping costs outside the USA. Of course folk like me get squeezed another $40 on import taxes.

Analogue and Scalpers should marry, have a baby and say "we can do what we like, thats the purpose of free enterprise business practices".

The only reason to do what they are doing, is to work out that selling to scalpers makes more money than selling direct to your customers.

[DejahThoris]

From a business perspective its a bad practice.

When I ran a business

The most important 5 words in this post.

Anyway, Duo pre-orders are still available, so it's possible that Analogue's rounding the corner and we'll see the 3D in large quantities as well.

[bigbadboaz]

Consider minding your own business.

He's certainly got the right as a potential customer to have an opinion/be annoyed. Just as you seem to think Analogue have the right to "do whatever they want".

And no, everyone running a private enterprise does not seem intent to do so in the cavalier way you did. Goals vary, and in general there is certainly something to be said for good customer relations.

[neorichieb1971]

I understand anyone can run a business as they see fit. But there is no reason to change the model of operations which poses no more risk than the way they are doing it and getting happier customers.


As I see it, the price they charge on the outset is say $200, but there must be some sort of extra for shipping for them because USA shipping is about $30 and international is $70. But honestly, I don't care about that so much, I just want to be able to shop and have that "Amazon" type experience. At the moment, its like buying concert tickets, where the touts buy 100,000 units and sell them at a hefty profit.

I am happy with my Duo purchase. Although I am waiting patiently, I went to the site, clicked on "buy" and got one. Happy days.

[DejahThoris]

there must be some sort of extra for shipping for them because USA shipping is about $30 and international is $70.

They've stated before that they outsource all packaging/shipping to a third party and that's why they charge so much.

[strayan]

there is no reason to change the model of operations which poses no more risk than the way they are doing it and getting happier customers.

There is a reason, you just don’t understand what it is.

If I were to speculate it would be this:

Analogue want to sell stuff and minimise the need to deal with returns or customer service/tech support issues. The fact they outsource their shipping and handling strongly points to this. To ensure they always sell their entire batch they do limited runs which makes it attractive to scalpers (who are less likely to return the product).

[ZellSF]

People buy these partially because they're very limited. Not sure how you can say there's no risk in walking away from that.

[neorichieb1971]

So the business model of success for Analogue is making their product limited, rather than rely on the excellent workmanship and product its renowned for?

They are not aliexpress. They make good products.


Anyway, I had a thought. In a FPGA environment will the code from the cartridge be dumped whole like a Hyperkin console, or will it read the data from the cartridge into the 8MB of RAM?

What do you guys prefer? Do you prefer the native resolution upscaled via conventional methods or do you prefer some kind of algorithm method?

[Sumez]

Consider minding your own business. If Analog want to run their business into the ground that’s their prerogative.

People aren't contacting Analogue to tell them it's a bad business practice. They are discussing their business practices on an internet forum, stating that they think they are bad. Whether that's correct or not is a separate issue.
And based on how you explained yourself running your business, I can understand why there were a few sour faces, lol.

If I were Analogue and I had no morals I'd just stick 100+ units to the side and just join the ebay scalpers and make even more money. There is nothing to stop you doing that.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think there's a good chance that kind of dishonest market manipulation is illegal.

In a FPGA environment will the code from the cartridge be dumped whole like a Hyperkin console, or will it read the data from the cartridge into the 8MB of RAM?

If it's not actually using the cartridge, that's not only overcomplicating the hardware unnecessarily (why emulate cartridge hardware when you can stop at emulating the console and have better compatibility for it?) - I think it also largely defeats the purpose of a hardware clone that takes catridges at all. The cartridge slot on the RetroN is just for show, and the company is pretty much famous for making garbage. Analogue is the direct opposite.

As it is, supporting cartridges is like the one ace Analogue systems have over MiSTer.

[neorichieb1971]

Using cartridges gets around lots of legal loopholes.

I don't see many folk using the pocket with real cartridges

[ZellSF]

So the business model of success for Analogue is making their product limited, rather than rely on the excellent workmanship and product its renowned for?

They are not aliexpress. They make good products.

Good products are exactly where this type of sale tactic is successful.

[ldeveraux]

If I were Analogue and I had no morals I'd just stick 100+ units to the side and just join the ebay scalpers and make even more money. There is nothing to stop you doing that.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think there's a good chance that kind of dishonest market manipulation is illegal.

Why would you think that would be illegal?

[Bassa-Bassa]

Are Analogue products really that good, though? They promise 1:1 FPGA hardware clones and that's never been delivered as far as I'm aware, with bugfix patches that come years later, if they ever come. Not to mention the DAC fiasco.