NEW Component to RGB transcoder that has no issues with Wii

[kitty666cats]

Per the other thread (Wii Transcoding component to RGB), where you can find people discussing different transcoders and their consistent issues with Wii, scattered about are some design theories from folks such as NewScholBoxer. The creator of this transcoder, DrJohn, also popped in to share some of his design principles with this transcoder and how it alleviates the issue Wii has which plagues all other currently available component to RGB transcoders.

I finally got around to testing the transcoder with my Wii last night, and I can personally attest that there are NO sync drops on transitions between dark and white flashing scenes, and no purplish tint to the image. In addition, there are some extra features such as a dip switches that let you customize which sync signals are being fed in and sent out.

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https://www.js-technology.com/store/ind ... er=product

^ This is the transcoder here, it also supplies a RGB SCART output should you want to transcode standard def YPbPr to RGB.

Hope some of you give it a try! I have yet to see any other transcoders currently being produced that can properly handle the Wii's quirks

[SavagePencil]

What sort of power supply should we get for a US setup? Any reliable USB ones?

[kitty666cats]

What sort of power supply should we get for a US setup? Any reliable USB ones?

He includes a 12V DC PSU for USA orders


I've send DrJohn the link to this thread, so he will probably chime in at some point in the coming day or two and provide more information on his design choices / answer any questions some folks may have

[kitty666cats]

Here's an image of the inside of the transcoder... if you've looked inside the Wakabavideo or the RetroTink units, you'll notice that there is QUITE a bit more going on under the hood, here

[orange808]

The description on the website suggests the 15KHz signals route to the SCART output and others feed to the RGBHV ("VGA") HD-15/DE-15 plug. Is that the case? I need the option to output all signals as proper RGBHV on the HD-15. Others will want everything as (euro)SCART.

It's a shame there's no buffered loop out. That comes in handy.

I have no idea what I'm looking at on the board. Is it an all analog design or does it rely on digital processing?

[BazookaBen]

it also supplies a RGB SCART output should you want to transcode standard def YPbPr to RGB.

Real Americans output standard def RGB over HD15

[kitty666cats]

The description on the website suggests the 15KHz signals route to the SCART output and others feed to the RGBHV ("VGA") HD-15/DE-15 plug. Is that the case? I need the option to output all signals as proper RGBHV on the HD-15. Others will want everything as (euro)SCART.

It's a shame there's no buffered loop out. That comes in handy.

I have no idea what I'm looking at on the board. Is it an all analog design or does it rely on digital processing?

You can route 15kHz RGBHV through the VGA port

[Gara]

No 31khz over Scart? I suppose 15khz and 31khz RGBs support over DB15 and then adapted to Scart with a cable is a decent compromise.

Edit: Wait... is 15khz and 31khz over DB15 linked to a dip switch toggle rather than being an automatic function? Switching between 15khz and 31khz input would get real annoying, What a highly specialized piece of equipment!

[BazookaBen]

Switching between 15khz and 31khz input would get real annoying

Not sure where you read it has that switch, I'm pretty sure it is automatic

But even it did need a switch, it wouldn't matter for 99% of the people using it. Unless you have a PVM 20L5, or one of the multi-scan BVM's, you're never going to need to switch between 15kHz and 31kHz on one display anyway

Pretty much everybody is going to be only 15kHz (most PVMs, PAL TVs, RGB modded American TVs) or only 31kHz (PC monitors)

[DrJohn]

Hello everybody, I'm the designer of this particular video converter.

The first thing I'm going to do is give a link directly to a copy of the user manual so that you can what things like the DIP switches do:
https://www.js-technology.com/store/inf ... uct_01.pdf

I've designed a couple of YUV to RGB converters previous to this one, the first used discrete parts and was ideal for interlaced PAL / NTSC but also had the option to work with progressive but no further. Second one did HD resolutions and used a conversion IC.

This one uses the same conversion IC, but adds extra circuitry as that IC needs help when there's Macrovision and other bogus syncs on the Y input. That technology has been proven for many years at J.S. Technology and has been used in multiple converters, some we never went on to produce for commercial reasons. We build a lot of prototypes to test different solutions!

This is where the DIP switches come in, because I'm giving you options on what type of sync you want to feed to the conversion IC and what you'd like on the output:

1. Input Sync, Raw Y.
2. Input Sync, Cleaned.
3. Output Sync, Cleaned.
4. Output Sync, Conversion IC Regenerated.

Push the switch to the ON position to select, one at a time for input and likewise for output. Raw Y is exactly that, the Y from the input goes directly to the conversion IC, but the cleaned version has gone through our process of sync stripping and removing bogus Macrovision pluses. Cleaned is ideal for PAL / NTSC sources. On the output you can use that cleaned feed or use what the conversion IC has cleaned up itself. I'd encourage trying both to see what works best in your system.

Next I'm seeing that we've got questions on why both SCART and a VGA port? It's a good question and honestly during the design phase it was "why not?". It really came down to making the converter as universal as possible and since I could have a choice of output why not offer them? There's only one amplifier so the RGB lines are tied, and you will get a darker image if you load both, but otherwise it will work.

Yes, the VGA output will run down to 15kHz. It's the same output as the SCART.

[DrJohn]

No 31khz over Scart? I suppose 15khz and 31khz RGBs support over DB15 and then adapted to Scart with a cable is a decent compromise.

Edit: Wait... is 15khz and 31khz over DB15 linked to a dip switch toggle rather than being an automatic function? Switching between 15khz and 31khz input would get real annoying, What a highly specialized piece of equipment!

What you're really switching in and out is the Macrovision cleaning of the bogus syncs. SCART is an interlaced standard and really never seen 31kHz. However, if you opt for Raw Y input and Conversion IC Regenerated on the output it will probably work for you at 31kHz. I just don't have any equipment that could see such a signal so can't test it.

There's only one part in the circuit which would limit the speed of the output syncs with SCART and that's because it's removing glitches from the sync out of the conversion IC to ensure they're clean for SCART. Progressive is probably ok, 1080 not so much.

[DrJohn]

it also supplies a RGB SCART output should you want to transcode standard def YPbPr to RGB.

Real Americans output standard def RGB over HD15

Apparently so do us Scots!

But the advantage of this is that you have the extra circuitry to remove the bogus syncs added by Macrovision that normally stop this type of conversion.

[DrJohn]

The description on the website suggests the 15KHz signals route to the SCART output and others feed to the RGBHV ("VGA") HD-15/DE-15 plug. Is that the case? I need the option to output all signals as proper RGBHV on the HD-15. Others will want everything as (euro)SCART.

It's a shame there's no buffered loop out. That comes in handy.

I have no idea what I'm looking at on the board. Is it an all analog design or does it rely on digital processing?

It's an instant conversion using analogue conversion IC. No delays.

The SCART and VGA share the same RGB buffer so what comes out of one comes out the other. If you want 15kHz VGA it's there for you. Since most VGA displays don't work at 15kHz I'd thought few would want this mentioned, and instead rely upon SCART. But it's there if you need it. More to the point, it's there without the bogus sync that Macrovsision is famous for causing problems with if you choose the cleaned sync option.

[maxtherabbit]

it also supplies a RGB SCART output should you want to transcode standard def YPbPr to RGB.

Real Americans output standard def RGB over HD15

SV TRVE KVNG

[kitty666cats]

The description on the website suggests the 15KHz signals route to the SCART output and others feed to the RGBHV ("VGA") HD-15/DE-15 plug. Is that the case? I need the option to output all signals as proper RGBHV on the HD-15. Others will want everything as (euro)SCART.

It's a shame there's no buffered loop out. That comes in handy.

I have no idea what I'm looking at on the board. Is it an all analog design or does it rely on digital processing?

Just curious - what 15kHz YPbPR source are you aiming to convert to RGBHV?

[SavagePencil]

Just curious - what 15kHz YPbPR source are you aiming to convert to RGBHV?

OG Xbox or PS2, maybe?

[Guspaz]

There are lots of potential 15 kHz YPbPr devices, such as literally any console that supported component video output along with any that are supported by HD Retrovision cables, but I think the focus of that question was more, what's the use case for needing RGBHV from a 15 KHz YPbPr console, since virtually any device that can handle 15 kHz video and supports RGB video will support RGBS.

[BazookaBen]

Just curious - what 15kHz YPbPR source are you aiming to convert to RGBHV?

OG Xbox or PS2, maybe?

PS2 supports RGB natively. Even RGB over component cables when running 480p, since it puts Sync on Green

So that leaves OG Xbox, Wii, Gamecube, Wii U, by my calculation.

[BazookaBen]

Thanks for stopping by and giving us the deets DrJohn!

This is where the DIP switches come in, because I'm giving you options on what type of sync you want to feed to the conversion IC and what you'd like on the output:

....

4. Output Sync, Conversion IC Regenerated.

I wonder if that conversion chip could be coaxed to convert 480i signals to 240p (I think the industry term was "non-interlaced").

That's always been a thing we've tried to find solutions for here, because lots of arcade compilations on PS2 and Xbox 360, and some Wiiware games, use 480i output for games that were originally 240p

I've tried it with the sync processing on Extron RGB's but the results were never good enough. Always some jitter in the signal that ruined the non-interlaced look

[Syntax]

Wii has native RGB out, why go thru so much trouble to convert component to RGB? What did I miss?

[orange808]

Thanks for stopping by and giving us the deets DrJohn!

This is where the DIP switches come in, because I'm giving you options on what type of sync you want to feed to the conversion IC and what you'd like on the output:

....

4. Output Sync, Conversion IC Regenerated.

I wonder if that conversion chip could be coaxed to convert 480i signals to 240p (I think the industry term was "non-interlaced").

That's always been a thing we've tried to find solutions for here, because lots of arcade compilations on PS2 and Xbox 360, and some Wiiware games, use 480i output for games that were originally 240p

I've tried it with the sync processing on Extron RGB's but the results were never good enough. Always some jitter in the signal that ruined the non-interlaced look

If it jitters around, that's usually flicker filtering.

The signal source isn't directly sampling and displaying raw alternating scanlines (each frame) from a theoretical or real full 480p buffer. The fields are processed to reduce flicker. When the signal leaves the source machine, the fields are already "damaged", if we consider raw alternating scanlines of a 480p signal to be pristine.

If the source machine implements a flicker filter, you've got to deinterlace before downscaling or hack the rom to output unfiltered 480i.

The Retrotink5x and Corio2 machines can remove the field offset right now if you have a source with no flicker filter.

[orange808]

Wii has native RGB out, why go thru so much trouble to convert component to RGB? What did I miss?

There are some hacks and workarounds, but you make it sound like I can boot up a stock NTSC Wii and toggle RGB in the menu.

Maybe I'm out of the loop, but I don't know how to do that.

[BazookaBen]

Retrotink 5x is pretty expensive, and Corio 2 has a frame of lag and not exactly plug and play.

Would be cool if there was something out there that could reliably remove interlacing in real time just by controlling sync, so no buffering of scanlines (or whole frames) is needed

[orange808]

Retrotink 5x is pretty expensive, and Corio 2 has a frame of lag and not exactly plug and play.

Would be cool if there was something out there that could reliably remove interlacing in real time just by controlling sync, so no buffering of scanlines (or whole frames) is needed

No digital display would be fooled and the flicker filtering can't be removed without deinterlacing. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

As far as I can tell, the Extron RGB already does all that can be done with sync processing. I assume the 'Tink5x does the job without a full frame buffer.

The best solution to this problem is hacking the roms to get 240p output, 480p for downscaling, or remove the flicker filter.

[Syntax]

Wii has native RGB out, why go thru so much trouble to convert component to RGB? What did I miss?

There are some hacks and workarounds, but you make it sound like I can boot up a stock NTSC Wii and toggle RGB in the menu.

Maybe I'm out of the loop, but I don't know how to do that.

I forgot how annoying it can be for the NTSC units.

Id probably go the route of RV loader if modding and requiring HV sync.
https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?t ... v1-6.4295/

[BazookaBen]

No digital display would be fooled and the flicker filtering can't be removed without deinterlacing. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

Wait, what? We're talking about CRTs here. I don't care how an LCD likes it, nobody should be using an LCD's built-in upscaler for retro consoles anyway

And I'm specifically talking about 480i games and arcade compilations that don't have a flicker filter

As far as I can tell, the Extron RGB already does all that can be done with sync processing. I assume the 'Tink5x does the job without a full frame buffer.

Extrons weren't designed to "deinterlace" 480i into 240p, it was just a happy accident, since their units were always targeted at progressive PC resolutions. And it rarely actually worked. I have 3 Extrons and many CRTs and I couldn't get any combination of them to give a convincing 240p.

Retrotink 5x only uses a line buffer, so it works great. But... $350

The best solution to this problem is hacking the roms to get 240p output, 480p for downscaling, or remove the flicker filter.

Can't force 240p with WiiWare games, nor a lot of arcade compilations on PS2. And I'm pretty sure it's impossible for arcade games on Xbox 360.

Forcing 480p works on Wii and Xbox 360, occasionally PS2. Even then, the only cost effective way I know of to downscale, currently, is with a GBS-C. And that has half a frame of lag. That's acceptable I think, but you can always go better. This goes up to 1 frame for 480i signals (which would have with unmodified Mega Man 9/10 on Wiiware, and a lot of PS2 compilations)

[strayan]

480p -> 240p downscaling using gbsc adds half a frame of lag.

Edit: nvm you edited your post.

[strayan]

Retrotink 5x is pretty expensive, and Corio 2 has a frame of lag and not exactly plug and play.

Would be cool if there was something out there that could reliably remove interlacing in real time just by controlling sync, so no buffering of scanlines (or whole frames) is needed

A device that does this would be awesome https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-eokXK9mB0

[kitty666cats]

BTW, the extra composite input is for anyone who would want to attempt to modify their transcoder in some sort of way - i.e. trying to make it convert composite to RGB. Probably quite the undertaking, but it's there for any modifications anyone can think up!

[kitty666cats]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/166077133243

Again, here's the ONE other device I've seen that doesn't have the chronic issues that Wii have with component. I'd still go with Jon's transcoder due to the added features, but just a reminded that there's a couple devices out there without the sync/purple issues

The Wii cable in the link has a dip switch setup for RGBS mode, handy for 240p/480i... IDK what the difference is between the RGBHV modes, probably different levels of brightness. thchardcore might know, he's got the same variant I used to have