Arcade Hardware Makes Zero Sense (to me)

[thaIllsburyFlowboy]

As someone who knows very little about computer programming, computer hardware, or software development and marketing more generally, I find myself bewildered by the specs and competitive strategy behind some machines. I wanted to post a mish-mash of questions I have gradually accumulated over time. Although I would be interested in interviews with relevant parties or other first-hand information, I would be willing to entertain idle speculation.

1. Why do Sega's arcade versions of home machines (ST-V, NAOMI) have twice as much RAM as their home counterparts? I have heard that reducing load times is a possible reason, but since both systems used cartridges, that seems unlikely.
2. Sticking with the Sega theme, why do Capcom and Psikyo use the SH-2 CPU in later hardware? Did it have a particularly good price/performance ratio for the time, or did they want to exploit their competencies in programming for it, maybe?
3. Atomiswave makes no sense from a platform perspective. You have a big installed base of NAOMI machines with a lot of software developed for that already, and your solution is to...cancel out these advantages completely and release new hardware?
4. Similarly, what drives the decision to design your own hardware rather than license someone else's? You would think costs, but then Psikyo for example have Strikers 1945 2 on their proprietary hardware and Strikers 1945 Plus on Neo Geo, which are not identical but very similar games, and you would think the Neo would do much better thanks to its large installed base and the lower cost of buying a cartridge versus a dedicated machine.
5. What drives the decision to convert a game for home consoles? In the Atari 2600 era I appreciate that it wasn't always technologically possible. It is also not costless to do so, although probably it is cheaper than developing a new game from the ground up (like Raizing did with all of their later releases). You would think something reasonably popular and feasible such as Ridge Racer 2 for example would work though.

I apologize if any of these topics are tired or previously discussed. A search for "Atomiswave" for example returns a lot of for-sale threads and other irrelevant content. As such I would not take offense to a link to relevant threads, if they exist.

[Bassa-Bassa]

There's a shiny and popular hardware board here where this would be much better placed.

3. Atomiswave makes no sense from a platform perspective. You have a big installed base of NAOMI machines with a lot of software developed for that already, and your solution is to...cancel out these advantages completely and release new hardware?

The AW was basically Sammy's way to make some use of the Dreamcasts parts they weren't selling with the console. Also, it was cheaper than the NAOMI GD-ROM and more operator-friendly.

4. Similarly, what drives the decision to design your own hardware rather than license someone else's? You would think costs, but then Psikyo for example have Strikers 1945 2 on their proprietary hardware and Strikers 1945 Plus on Neo Geo, which are not identical but very similar games, and you would think the Neo would do much better thanks to its large installed base and the lower cost of buying a cartridge versus a dedicated machine.

In the MVS case, SNK published most of the games by other companies on it, so it was not really a hardware they "licensed out". For many small companies, standalone PCBs were as cheap as cartridges and served to do their own designs and business (even if they needed a good distributor afterwards), but a lot of PCBs used hardware designed (and manufactured) by companies other than the game maker indeed. Psikyo's own hardware was more powerful and better suited to their games than the MVS. The MVS version of Strikers 1945 II was an attempt to make the series better known in the West, were Psikyo games were unsuccessful and poorly distributed.

[bigbadboaz]

1. RAM has always been one of the easiest ways to boost performance - look at PCs, it's the same thing. You give an existing set of chips more room to work with. Home consoles are never going to ship with an optimal amount of RAM due to cost constraints, so when a hardware maker takes that chipset into the arcade marketplace adding RAM is an obvious step, particularly when that chipset is going to be relatively underpowered in the arcade space.

5. ...to make money? An established hit in one arena has a built-in audience in another if you can bring it over. Companies want to be able to sell their products, so those that have sure-fire properties in arcade games will want to bring them to the home. This was much more so in earlier years, where the arcades really drove the excitement and were a clear indicator of what the consumer would want at home. Additionally, when arcades were more prominent it was very common for the big companies to have arcade divisions and thus obvious titles to port.

[Steven]

Uh... the last I checked, which was like 5 days ago, the ST-V has exactly the same RAM that the Saturn has.

In any case, the GD-ROM version of the NAOMI loads the games from the GD-ROM and stores everything in RAM or whatever, so that might be why.

[Buffi]

As someone who knows very little about computer programming, computer hardware, or software development and marketing more generally, I find myself bewildered by the specs and competitive strategy behind some machines. I wanted to post a mish-mash of questions I have gradually accumulated over time. Although I would be interested in interviews with relevant parties or other first-hand information, I would be willing to entertain idle speculation.

1. Why do Sega's arcade versions of home machines (ST-V, NAOMI) have twice as much RAM as their home counterparts? I have heard that reducing load times is a possible reason, but since both systems used cartridges, that seems unlikely.
2. Sticking with the Sega theme, why do Capcom and Psikyo use the SH-2 CPU in later hardware? Did it have a particularly good price/performance ratio for the time, or did they want to exploit their competencies in programming for it, maybe?
3. Atomiswave makes no sense from a platform perspective. You have a big installed base of NAOMI machines with a lot of software developed for that already, and your solution is to...cancel out these advantages completely and release new hardware?
4. Similarly, what drives the decision to design your own hardware rather than license someone else's? You would think costs, but then Psikyo for example have Strikers 1945 2 on their proprietary hardware and Strikers 1945 Plus on Neo Geo, which are not identical but very similar games, and you would think the Neo would do much better thanks to its large installed base and the lower cost of buying a cartridge versus a dedicated machine.
5. What drives the decision to convert a game for home consoles? In the Atari 2600 era I appreciate that it wasn't always technologically possible. It is also not costless to do so, although probably it is cheaper than developing a new game from the ground up (like Raizing did with all of their later releases). You would think something reasonably popular and feasible such as Ridge Racer 2 for example would work though.

I apologize if any of these topics are tired or previously discussed. A search for "Atomiswave" for example returns a lot of for-sale threads and other irrelevant content. As such I would not take offense to a link to relevant threads, if they exist.

1. I mean, you are aware that Saturn had an expansion port for RAM at the top of it right, which some games required using?
Naomi also supported games on GD-ROM or Netboot. Those were loaded fully into ram before playing.

2.Why not :shrug:

3. Cheaper, easier to setup, plugs into Jamma setups directly. As mentioned, AW was Sammy releasing it.

4. Strikers 1945 Plus was released over two years later than 1945 II. Basically they saw a way to get some more money out of reusing assets of their earlier games for a new format, where operators could swap it into their existing setups easily. Makes perfect sense.

5. I dont really understand this question. It's an obvious way to use existing assets to generated more revenue.

[sunnshiner]

Wasn't the Atomiswave just a way of using up Dreamcast bits after Sega abandoned it? The games even run natively on a DC.

[Shatterhand]

In the MVS case, SNK published most of the games by other companies on it, so it was not really a hardware they "licensed out". For many small companies, standalone PCBs were as cheap as cartridges and served to do their own designs and business (even if they needed a good distributor afterwards), but a lot of PCBs used hardware designed (and manufactured) by companies other than the game maker indeed. Psikyo's own hardware was more powerful and better suited to their games than the MVS. The MVS version of Strikers 1945 II was an attempt to make the series better known in the West, were Psikyo games were unsuccessful and poorly distributed.

Strikers 1945 Plus gotta be the only arcade vertical shmup with side borders I've ever played, because MVS games couldn't be made on vertical screens. That's really weird.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Strikers 1945 Plus gotta be the only arcade vertical shmup with side borders I've ever played, because MVS games couldn't be made on vertical screens. That's really weird.

Well, it wasn't a first for sure, but it's not exactly the most natural and good-looking solution. A shame they didn't bother to make a horizontal scroller a la Sengoku Blade for the occasion, but I guess the success of the Sonic Wings in the West was not something you could neglect.

[thaIllsburyFlowboy]

5. I dont really understand this question. It's an obvious way to use existing assets to generated more revenue.

Yes, but then why have so many arcade games not received home conversions? Take for example CPS2 to Dreamcast conversions. Takumi and Capcom converted multiple games despite the system's poor sales, but then Raizing/Eighting, Cave, and others did not.

The logic then would be that the game fared poorly in the arcade, and that made it not worthwhile to convert it to home systems. But sticking with the above example (there are others), Progear was the #4 game of the month according to Game Machine while Giga Wing was only the tenth. This is a fairly loose metric since arcades may have more popular months than others, but still...

3. Cheaper, easier to setup, plugs into Jamma setups directly. As mentioned, AW was Sammy releasing it.

I assume this is what Bassa-bassa was referring to regarding operator friendliness. This begs the question of why NAOMI did not conform to the JAMMA standard, then.

Uh... the last I checked, which was like 5 days ago, the ST-V has exactly the same RAM that the Saturn has

I think that may be the case in some instances. Perhaps I was looking at a Final Fight Revenge machine? NAOMI loading the games completely into RAM when it used discs or netboot makes sense, but then, why 4 gigs when the discs were only one?

There's a shiny and popular hardware board here where this would be much better placed.

That board seems to be geared more towards tech support, but I am happy to abide by whatever decision the moderators make.

[Bassa-Bassa]

5. I dont really understand this question. It's an obvious way to use existing assets to generated more revenue.

Yes, but then why have so many arcade games not received home conversions? Take for example CPS2 to Dreamcast conversions. Takumi and Capcom converted multiple games despite the system's poor sales, but then Raizing/Eighting, Cave, and others did not.

The logic then would be that the game fared poorly in the arcade, and that made it not worthwhile to convert it to home systems. But sticking with the above example (there are others), Progear was the #4 game of the month according to Game Machine while Giga Wing was only the tenth. This is a fairly loose metric since arcades may have more popular months than others, but still...

You actually picked an age (late 90s - early 00s) where the odd one was that which didn't get a home port, as the industry there turned definitely towards home gaming. Getting ports of Takumi's CPS2 games and not of the rest was indeed an apparently weird move. When discussing this with a friend way more knowledgeable than I long ago he concluded that the Takumi games just had more chances than any other - Capcom wanted to reboot the genre and to make the just-born DC successful, Giga Wing was the first in this revival, so it was a given. Mars Matrix the year later was a why not? if they had the porting tools made, and GW2 directly was made with the DC in their minds like any other NAOMI game by Capcom.

The why-not's of contemporary Eighting/Capcom games: poor sales/popularity for 1944 and vertical monitor needed for Great Mahou Daisakusen (even if Capcom published Gunbird 2 on DC, but that was really popular and part of a Psikyo/Capcom agreement involving other titles, it seems). As for Progear, he thought that it could be either, because Cave didn't care/had the know-how about the DC, or because the IP thing wasn't so clear then with this title (reminder that it got a port for shell phones where Capcom wasn't even mentioned). Likely both.

Basically, your answer - having a home system which let them port a game easily was among top reasons why. Many arcade games were just too unique hardware-wise.

3. Cheaper, easier to setup, plugs into Jamma setups directly. As mentioned, AW was Sammy releasing it.

I assume this is what Bassa-bassa was referring to regarding operator friendliness. This begs the question of why NAOMI did not conform to the JAMMA standard, then.

It conformed to the next standard, for 31khz monitors, which Sega believed to be getting more expansion than it did. There're workarounds to adapt NAOMI for 15khz, anyway.

[Buffi]

I assume this is what Bassa-bassa was referring to regarding operator friendliness. This begs the question of why NAOMI did not conform to the JAMMA standard, then.

Main reason: Cause SEGA also made cabs, and Jamma was an aged standard with a bunch of issues. This way they could introduce a new standard AND sell new cabs.

JVS solves a lot of issues with Jamma. Support for more than four buttons without kick harness, support for analog controls (incl steering wheels, lightguns, ...) without any weird customs workaround, support for mahjong games, standards for linking cabs for more than 2 players, many more things. Also 31khz, although I guess that could have worked over jamma pinouts as well.

Hooking it up to older cabs was still quite easy, since Naomi had a 15khz mode and IO boards with jamma connectors, and audio amps werent very pricey.

[bigbadboaz]

Not every arcade game would have sold well ported to the home. Progear is a perfect example. No matter what the arcade charts said, if you were around at that time you know home shmup ports weren't selling.

[Bassa-Bassa]

That's true for this genre. In the 32bit years, save the very few exceptions, they did barely OK as arcade games, sold poorly as home games. Hence Capcom's end-of-the-millennium attempt, which didn't work as expected, and the subsequent low-budget entries for NAOMI/DC.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

There's a shiny and popular hardware board here where this would be much better placed.

3. Atomiswave makes no sense from a platform perspective. You have a big installed base of NAOMI machines with a lot of software developed for that already, and your solution is to...cancel out these advantages completely and release new hardware?

The AW was basically Sammy's way to make some use of the Dreamcasts parts they weren't selling with the console. Also, it was cheaper than the NAOMI GD-ROM and more operator-friendly.

4. Similarly, what drives the decision to design your own hardware rather than license someone else's? You would think costs, but then Psikyo for example have Strikers 1945 2 on their proprietary hardware and Strikers 1945 Plus on Neo Geo, which are not identical but very similar games, and you would think the Neo would do much better thanks to its large installed base and the lower cost of buying a cartridge versus a dedicated machine.

In the MVS case, SNK published most of the games by other companies on it, so it was not really a hardware they "licensed out". For many small companies, standalone PCBs were as cheap as cartridges and served to do their own designs and business (even if they needed a good distributor afterwards), but a lot of PCBs used hardware designed (and manufactured) by companies other than the game maker indeed. Psikyo's own hardware was more powerful and better suited to their games than the MVS. The MVS version of Strikers 1945 II was an attempt to make the series better known in the West, were Psikyo games were unsuccessful and poorly distributed.

Psikyo arcade pcb kits were sold/distributed in the USA courtesy of Jaleco USA arcade subsidiary. The USA region Gunbird 1 arcade pcb kit had a full-sized arcade marquee with the Jaleco name placed underneath (albeit in smaller lettering, of course) the Gunbird title namesake & even came with all English arcade paperworks which is a rarity nowadays (in fact, the pcb has May 1995 rom version stickers placed on certain roms to designate that it was for the USA arcade market) -- it got a proper May 1995 release in American arcades during that particular month as I got to try it out at the Blackbeard's arcade/water amusement park in Fresno, CA during that month + it had a "New Game" sign on top of the Dynamo upright cab as well to let arcade gamers know that it was, indeed, a spanking brand new arcade game title to try out.

Even Psikyo's signature Strikers 1945 II, Strikers 1945 III & Gunbird 2 arcade stg pcbs were stocked in the American arcades during the late 1990s and into the early 2000s era. It was just a matter if said arcade joint or an indy arcade operator decided if said arcade stg title was worth having on said premises or out on a "street location" (usually a revolving business of rotating arcade games on a weekly or monthly basis as income dictated if the quarters were rolling into the coin boxes).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Despatche]

Takumi and Capcom converted multiple games despite the system's poor sales

The Dreamcast didn't "sell poorly". It's just that everything went to hell the night the PlayStation 2 dropped, because humans are actually terrible. Sales were pretty good up until then, all things considered. So no, all those Capcom ports, and really just about every single Dreamcast release until 2001 or so, had clear monetary purpose.

[Steven]

Yeah, the Dreamcast is well-documented as having the biggest console launch in US history at that point in time. It didn't do so well in Japan, though... yay, Godzilla Generations...

Not sure what happened in PAL-land, but yes, the Dreamcast did sell rather well in at least the US until the PS2 showed up (with one of the worst US launch libraries I've ever seen, too, unless you like generic EA Sports games or whatever. Mine sat and collected dust for 6 years before something actually made me care about it). Even then, the Dreamcast got good games until 2007, and that was quite literally because of the NAOMI.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Psikyo arcade pcb kits were sold/distributed in the USA courtesy of Jaleco USA arcade subsidiary. The USA region Gunbird 1 arcade pcb kit had a full-sized arcade marquee with the Jaleco name placed underneath (albeit in smaller lettering, of course) the Gunbird title namesake & even came with all English arcade paperworks which is a rarity nowadays (in fact, the pcb has May 1995 rom version stickers placed on certain roms to designate that it was for the USA arcade market) -- it got a proper May 1995 release in American arcades during that particular month as I got to try it out at the Blackbeard's arcade/water amusement park in Fresno, CA during that month + it had a "New Game" sign on top of the Dynamo upright cab as well to let arcade gamers know that it was, indeed, a spanking brand new arcade game title to try out.

They went as far as to create new local art for that version lol:

Spoiler

I haven't found evidence of Jaleco distributing other Psikyo games besides this and Battle Kroad in the US or Europe. Seems later games were in the hands of smaller distributors which couldn't do much - games using vertical monitors were sadly a rarity in the late 90s unless you lived in Japan or Korea. They really needed something like the MVS and SNK if they wanted to sell a STG in the West. And even that wasn't enough in the case of 1945 Plus.

[thaIllsburyFlowboy]

PCEFX - I once encountered a Strikers 2 cabinet in the wild, in the US. This was many years after it was released. I feel fortunate!

Takumi and Capcom converted multiple games despite the system's poor sales

The Dreamcast didn't "sell poorly". It's just that everything went to hell the night the PlayStation 2 dropped, because humans are actually terrible. Sales were pretty good up until then, all things considered. So no, all those Capcom ports, and really just about every single Dreamcast release until 2001 or so, had clear monetary purpose.

Presumably Takumi did not convert their games for charity. But then why not Cave or Raizing/Eighting, who also developed for Capcom's CPS2 around the same time? One might argue that it had to do with their relationship with Sega, but both companies released more titles for Saturn than they did for PSX. So it's quite puzzling that they left money on the table, presumably. It also might be the case that Takumi had competencies in converting to Dreamcast hardware that the others did not, but most, if not all, accounts hold that Dreamcast is easy to develop for.

There is also the fact that Takumi and Raizing/Eighting released arcade games on PSX-based hardware around the same time, but only Takumi released a home conversion. So we can perhaps rule out hardware as a concern. I would conclude that there is some benefit to arcade exclusivity that benefits some companies and isn't worth it for others, but I do not understand why. Cave also is very inconsistent with the home conversions.

[Bassa-Bassa]

But then why not Cave or Raizing/Eighting, who also developed for Capcom's CPS2 around the same time?

Only a few posts above:

The why-not's of contemporary Eighting/Capcom games: poor sales/popularity for 1944 and vertical monitor needed for Great Mahou Daisakusen (even if Capcom published Gunbird 2 on DC, but that was really popular and part of a Psikyo/Capcom agreement involving other titles, it seems). As for Progear, he thought that it could be either, because Cave didn't care/had the know-how about the DC, or because the IP thing wasn't so clear then with this title (reminder that it got a port for shell phones where Capcom wasn't even mentioned). Likely both.

This is in the context that STG just didn't sell in home markets as bigbadboaz mentions, and many of them weren't easy to port well enough. Giga Wing got a DC version because Capcom wanted to show all the support they could to Sega's console on its release (which everybody expected to be taking the Saturn's baton as the home machine for Capcom coin-ops, as the company was in very good terms with Sega in those years) and it still was the only Capcom STG from that period released by then.

[Buffi]

Presumably Takumi did not convert their games for charity. But then why not Cave or Raizing/Eighting, who also developed for Capcom's CPS2 around the same time? One might argue that it had to do with their relationship with Sega, but both companies released more titles for Saturn than they did for PSX.

Uh, Cave released the same amount of shmups on Saturn and Psone.
Both consoles got Donpachi and Dodonpachi and no other shmups by Cave.

They also released some racing and snowboarding games on both consoles. Psone got more games among those, if not counting Delisoba Deluxe which was a weird promo thing and never for sale.

[thaIllsburyFlowboy]

Presumably Takumi did not convert their games for charity. But then why not Cave or Raizing/Eighting, who also developed for Capcom's CPS2 around the same time? One might argue that it had to do with their relationship with Sega, but both companies released more titles for Saturn than they did for PSX.

Uh, Cave released the same amount of shmups on Saturn and Psone.
Both consoles got Donpachi and Dodonpachi and no other shmups by Cave.

They also released some racing and snowboarding games on both consoles. Psone got more games among those, if not counting Delisoba Deluxe which was a weird promo thing and never for sale.

I count six vs. five here. These lists can be incomplete though. The point remains that they had worked with Sega previously, and more than once.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_(com ... sole_games

This is in the context that STG just didn't sell in home markets as bigbadboaz mentions, and many of them weren't easy to port well enough. Giga Wing got a DC version because Capcom wanted to show all the support they could to Sega's console on its release (which everybody expected to be taking the Saturn's baton as the home machine for Capcom coin-ops, as the company was in very good terms with Sega in those years) and it still was the only Capcom STG from that period released by then.

Cave appears to have never gone back to CPS2 so a Cave-Capcom conflict/licensing issue is possible. I don't know that screen rotation was a barrier though. Other Dreamcast games have the feature. I would be interested in more detailed data on the performance of the games too. All I have to go on is the Game Machine rankings on Wikipedia, which would put Raizing ahead of Takumi's output, mostly.

[heli]

For question 2 you should know it takes time to program a new chip.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Presumably Takumi did not convert their games for charity. But then why not Cave or Raizing/Eighting, who also developed for Capcom's CPS2 around the same time? One might argue that it had to do with their relationship with Sega, but both companies released more titles for Saturn than they did for PSX.

Uh, Cave released the same amount of shmups on Saturn and Psone.
Both consoles got Donpachi and Dodonpachi and no other shmups by Cave.

They also released some racing and snowboarding games on both consoles. Psone got more games among those, if not counting Delisoba Deluxe which was a weird promo thing and never for sale.

I count six vs. five here. These lists can be incomplete though. The point remains that they had worked with Sega previously, and more than once.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_(com ... sole_games

That list is just wrong. Half of the games there weren't "developed" by Cave, and particularly in Donpachi and Dodonpachi for the Sony console they weren't involved at all.

They did develope the Saturn versions, though, but under Atlus' umbrella, which likely found that it would be too late for Saturn versions of 'rade and Guwange, and too soon for DC versions, right when the market was looking at other genres and Cave themselves were emancipating from Atlus.

Cave appears to have never gone back to CPS2 so a Cave-Capcom conflict/licensing issue is possible.

Cave actually never "went" there, it was a Capcom thing, which basically contacted every STG developer from those years to work for (and with) them for the genre reboot I mentioned. It'd be interesting to know how the agreements were with all those who ended up developing for Capcom. The recent collections would suggest that Capcom owns entirely the IPs of Progear and Takumi's games, but with Great Mahou Daisakusen it's still a mystery if part of them belongs to Eighting.

I don't know that screen rotation was a barrier though. Other Dreamcast games have the feature. I would be interested in more detailed data on the performance of the games too.

Screen rotation was always a barrier as they're inviting you to do a thing with the TV set you should not do. We're talking of heavy CRTs here. If I recall, they even hid the option in Raiden Project for the western versions. The DC allowed for the first time graphic filters when downscaling so they could just use the original graphics as they were (kind of) and fully display them in a horizontal screen without too distracting artifacts. They knew that it still was paying a poor tribute to how the games looked originally and how much impact they lose this way. Emulating slowdowns and game speed were another matter they had to deal with - unless the home and the arcade systems shared the hardware, that always was too hard to replicate, and I guess fans were starting to notice and complain.

[Buffi]

I count six vs. five here. These lists can be incomplete though. The point remains that they had worked with Sega previously, and more than once.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_(com ... sole_games

Main things of note in that list is that Dodonpachi was on psone as well (port job was not developed by them) and Delisoba Deluxe not being a retail title. It was a promo thing for a tv-show.