Where is game theory for making shmups...

[qmish]

I wonder if we really had a book that tells us so much about game design in shmups.
Gameplay making secrets from japanese masters or something.

[heli]

You just need to be able to program to make a game, nothing more.
What you want dont exist, if it exist you be doing assembly language ( per chip unique instructions ).
You are funny, start learning.

[qmish]

I don't mean programming part of it.

I mean "game design".

Aka, stages' level design things, balance of enemies, situations. Mechanics.

All these things are also learnable.

For non-arcade games like FPS, RPG or even adventures, there are many books and articles of how make it good.

[mycophobia]

good level design is writing all the music for your stages first and then syncing up the enemy layouts to them

[heli]

If you play you can see.
It is such a simple genre, all cliche.
If you test your game you change things until it is good, you want a book about that ?

Implement things and see possibilities that your code gives you for cheap, use what has been used.
No, you dont have to read about that, you can fill lots of gigabyte in RAM, and waste some more power, just increase the system requirements and your game is done.

[qmish]

I dunno, i would read stuff from e.g. Final Boss devs, they seem experienced and knowledgeable so they may teach youth how make shmup good [s]and not sine mora.[/s]

[heli]

What is a final boss dev ?
Someone who make the final boss ?

[Ark]

Final Boss was the original name of the game Zero Ranger.
Dev is short for developer

[Sumez]

Some of the condescending comments in this thread is a little weird to me...
Of course there is plenty of relevant design theory for shooters. It's not just a question of making an 8-way controlled player with forward facing projectiles and putting in stuff there for them to shoot. That's how you get a euroshmup.

Not that I'm personally aware of such a resource. A complete book or dedicated website could easily be written, discussing examples of popular games and digging into what exactly sets them apart. What makes a boss fight fun, how do different mechanics interact well, how to balance your difficulty, what's a satisfying and/or deep scoring system, and so on.

I don't know if such a resource has been compiled, and I feel like I'd probably have heard of it if it were. But there's a pretty long history of threads in this subforum that focus on specific individual categories to tap into.

[9uile]

Gameplay making secrets from japanese masters or something.

Sure it will be great to have a kind of reference book about shmups.
Unfortunatelly, it doesn't exist as i know. Are there books like this for other genres ?
Maybe you should read interviews here : https://shmuplations.com/
and check this future documentary project about TOAPLAN :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2JR_Qu7dwk

Your request could be really interrested to open a YT channel about those things (instead of another 'test reviews' or 'the best 10 shmups on ...' videos)

[mycophobia]

Some of the condescending comments in this thread is a little weird to me...

i would like to state for the record that i was being 100% sincere

[XtraSmiley]

I don't mean programming part of it.

I mean "game design".

Aka, stages' level design things, balance of enemies, situations. Mechanics.

All these things are also learnable.

For non-arcade games like FPS, RPG or even adventures, there are many books and articles of how make it good.

I 100% understand your question and agree there is certainly game design in shmups. Not sure if there are books about it, but when I made a board game for a class, we had to read several articles and a book specifically on game design (for board games), as well as game theory.

Timing, music, art, tempo, story (maybe?), have huge factors.

One of my favorites, Thunders Force, is likely one of my favorites as it was super easy (as a young teen), and that lava stage is burned (ha ha) into my memory because of how it looked, and of course, the music.

[Verticen]

For learning stuff like shmup game design, here's what I would recommend.

There's a number of helpful threads on the forum. If you haven't visited the index of developer friendly topics thread yet, check it out; its probably the most cohesive hub for finding stg game design in current year. Some links are just to other forum discussions, but Common mistakes of new developers is a short but cohesive list that will help any developer. Do's and Don'ts is also worth a read, but is more of a free-form discussion.

The Genius of Garegga is a thesis paper written about Battle Garegga's game design. This one can be hard to find, but its archived on wayback.

also like 9uile mentioned, shmuplations is another fantastic place for finding shmup game theory.

[Leander]

A couple more links:
https://shmuptheory.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... shmup.html
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TZ7 ... EeKWM/edit

If you play you can see.
It is such a simple genre, all cliche.
If you test your game you change things until it is good, you want a book about that ?

This must be sarcasm.

Yes, it's easy to make a shmup. Making one that is fun to play is a different story.

[9uile]

Yes, it's easy to make a shmup. Making one that is fun to play is a different story.

Like in other arts. music, painting, movies...
When a thing is well done (simple and efficent), people don't even imagine the work behind it.

[SolDirix]

Put anime girls in it.
Have someone make a meme out of it.
Have nobody actually play your game.

There you go. Here's your shmup degree.

Jokes aside, the best advice is to play and get good at other shmups and examine how they function. Every shmup is different, but the concept is the same: you dodge bullets in various complex patterns. What you add to that to make it unique and stand out is up to you. It doesn't always have to be an 'arcade' style game. It could have adventure/puzzle/rpg aspects to it. It could be linear, or let you choose multiple paths.

If you want to learn how to design a shmup, you also need to learn how to design other kinds of games as well, so you can incorporate their aspects into your shmup.

[markikav]

Boghog has written something on bullet hells - https://twitter.com/boghogooo/status/15 ... 4078090246
Also there is a good video / podcast with him and Mark from Electric Underground talking about good shmup dev - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij5trBPbJPw

[SG-Glendon]

The Boghog links were very good. Did you see this compiled list here on this forum? One of those might help you a little.

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=39679

[BryanM]

I think Launch has the right of it: shmups are rhythm games. The most euphoric I've ever felt playing one was Dangun Feveron, dancing to the jam.

The most popular shmup of all time certainly thinks this is the way to go.

As for game design, it's like everything really. Variety is core. Difficulty can be sky high or all the way down in the ditch at games journalist mode; either way, if a game is completely monotonous, it's not good. Like a massage, you need to stimulate all those neurons to get them activated.

An illustrative example is the fight scene at the end of the first Matrix movie. It's the same thing we've seen a billion times: a movie that ends with a climatic battle where two guys punch each other for ten minutes. What makes the guys punching each other in the Matrix good and the guys punching each other in DOOM shit, is all in the execution and audience expectations. Every ten seconds something shifts in the fight, momentum shifts back and forth, and something interesting or weird is constantly happening.

Think of the 5 billion times someone remade Street Fighter 2, and what they had to change to make it feel different enough to create a playerbase that didn't just rather play Street Fighter 2.

[dark]

This genre is so niche you'd be hard pressed to find a hardcopy book that delves into shmup principles... but if you are programming one, then the thought must surely cross your mind eventually of "hey my prototype game doesn't play like _X_ shmup game that I really enjoy, while I program the mechanics of my game, let me consider in detail what it is about the mechanics of _X_ game that I like". For instance, if you like Japanese vertical shmups like CAVE games, you might give some thought to the game mechanics of those games that you like, some of which may include these:

-no inertia on player ship
-small hitbox on player ship
-combination of enemy bullets that home in to you as well as non-homing bullets being pushed out from the enemy in geometric patterns (and when and where and how many of these bullets to put in a scene)
-movement of enemies tied to the bpm of the background music
-have waves of popcorn enemies in early stages, have more bullet soaking enemies in later stages
etc etc

[EmperorIng]

boghog, the main developer behind the recently released (and well-received) Gunvein just put out a video that relates to some of your questions qmish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAF2FkgyiYM