Need some help with arcade sticks :)

[SPM]

Just bought the 8bitdo arcade stick for Switch (and ocasionally PC) and hadn't played with one for 2 decades. So... rusty is not even close to how I feel

I'm sure some tips from you guys will help with that!

First of all, what is the best button configuration for "standard" shmups? (using autofire!)
For psikyo style shmups? [(auto)shot, charge shot, bomb]
And for cave style shmups? [(auto)shot, focus shot, bomb/hyper]

Take into account this layout:


Also, what gate do you use? square/octagonal/circular?

And what do you consider good buttons? these are a bit sensitive (I've wasted some bombs just laying my finger on the button...).

On a side note... I can't play the Psikyo ports with it (on mame it works well). Their input lag with joy-cons is bearable (a bit frustrating but still enjoyable) but add a bit more and it becomes terrible

[Jonpachi]

I like to set "X" to be my autofire. This lets me rest my middle and ring fingers on it, without having to stretch my hand.

I then set Focus/Charge to be on "Y" so I can use my pointer finger to tap and hold when needed.

Finally, I set "B" to be bomb, so it's always a quick thumb tap.

[To Far Away Times]

I usually do it like this on the top row:

[Unfocused fire] [Bomb] [Focused Fire]

Unfocused fire is always held down, focus is used when needed, and bomb is within easy reach.

Give the sensitive (sanwa?) buttons some more time, see if they grow on you. The sensitivity means they are going to fire faster which could buy you some valuable milliseconds during a panic bomb.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

In an arcade layout, Y = Button 1, X = Button 2, R = Button 3, and B = Button 4.

Standard arcade layout for most CAVE games in an arcade is Button 1 = Shot/Laser, Button 2 = Bomb, Button 3 = Rapid Shot, and Button 4 = Hyper. Note that as far as I remember, the arcade versions of Espgaluda II, Daifukkatsu, and Akai Katana all allow you to select from two configurations that swap the buttons on buttons 3 and 4. The first Espgaluda game also has a button combo you can hold down when pressing start to switch the functions of buttons 3 and 4.

Personally, if not playing on an arcade cab, my preference is:

Two button games: Button 1 = Rapid Shot, Button 2 = Bomb

Three button games: Button 1 = Rapid Shot, Button 2 = Shot/Laser/Charge Shot, Button 3 = Bomb

Four button games: Button 1 = Rapid Shot, Button 2 = Shot/Laser/Charge Shot, Button 3 = Bomb, Button 4 = Hyper, etc

I like having the button I hold down longest as my index finger button. Using the thumb on Button 4 as a Rapid Shot is also popular with a lot of folks I think.

---

I use square or octagonal gates. I prefer octagonal gates in my vertical cab because they're better for avoiding accidental diagonals in shmups as well as for playing 4-way games that don't register games (I have a Namco Classics Vol.2 board I also use in my cab, works best with a 4-way gate but I often am too lazy to swap gates when swapping games). I feel like I have a better sense of where each direction is when playing on an octo.

Square gates are more convenient for doing quarter circle or half circle fighting motions, although you can still certainly do those on octo gates. Octo gates aren't as convenient for riding the screen edge and tap dodging to reduce movement speed, such as in games with no focus movement where you can hold down to hug the bottom and tap left/right to get slower diagonal movement along the screen bottom. This is very specific though and isn't necessary in most shmups.

[floralcateyes]

I use:
[Shot] [Bomb] for two-button games,
[Shot] [Bomb] [Rapid] for Cave style games, or two button games with added autofire,
[Focus] [Shot] [Bomb] for Touhou style games,
then the Cave style layout plus either B or L for four-button games.

Sorry if a bit off-topic, it's a bit related anyway, but I'm wondering if there are any good sources for both default and "common" button layouts. To illustrate my problem: look at Deathsmiles. It's technically a three-button game, with two of those as shot buttons for left and right. But you get the usual different kinds of shots depending on if you tap or hold the shot buttons, and holding them at the same time gives you a lock-on shot. So e.g. the PC port adds three extra buttons for rapid fire left, rapid fire right, and lock-on, iirc.

So when the game was out in actual arcades, what was the most common button layout? Did arcade operators stick with the default three buttons? Did they add the extra three or two? If they did, what layout did they use? Speaking of Cave, did the arcade operators who had a Mushi cab bother with all those autofire rates? Was there a standardized (informally standardized, at least) layout for these?

Maybe I should've just stuck with keyboard lol.

[Klatrymadon]

And what do you consider good buttons? these are a bit sensitive (I've wasted some bombs just laying my finger on the button...).

To a certain extent I think this is a spatial awareness/proprioception issue, and that you'll just stop doing it as you get a good feel for where everything is under your palm, but Seimitsu PS-15 and PS-14-K buttons will give you noticeably more resistance compared to the stock parts in this stick. You could definitely still nudge them by accident, though, so maybe give it time before dropping £30 on a new set.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

To illustrate my problem: look at Deathsmiles. It's technically a three-button game, with two of those as shot buttons for left and right.

It's easiest to play it as a three button game. I find the extra buttons make it too unnecessarily complicated. The original arcade layout is actually shown if you look at the ingame tutorial when selecting a character. If I remember correctly, Button 1 is Left Shot, Button 2 is Right Shot, Button 3 is Bomb.

[el3m]

Button layout for me is Shot-Bomb-Rapid which is the common arcade layout. I use the buttons that are B-Y-X in that picture, it's the most comfortable for me. I love giving the middle finger when bombing
I usually hold down the rapid button the whole game so it makes sense to use the ring finger for that.
Four button games I use the pinky to press R.

I also have that stick and replaced my buttons with Seimitsu 14-G's, they have much better feel than the stock ones.

Gate: there are plenty of opinions regarding these and it's also quite different per lever: I like my Ls-62 octo gate, but Ls-32 square is great also. For fighters I prefer square.

[Wilsoncqb1911]

How do you like the 8bitdo stick? I've been considering one for a wireless stick. I have wired options but sometimes I just get lazy.

[SPM]

Thanks so much for the answers! Many interesting insights! I'll experiment with all those options and see what I find best for me

I love giving the middle finger when bombing
I usually hold down the rapid button the whole game so it makes sense to use the ring finger for that

How do you like the 8bitdo stick? I've been considering one for a wireless stick. I have wired options but sometimes I just get lazy.

I've only played it wirelessly for now tbh. It's just so convenient

[floralcateyes]

It's easiest to play it as a three button game. I find the extra buttons make it too unnecessarily complicated. The original arcade layout is actually shown if you look at the ingame tutorial when selecting a character. If I remember correctly, Button 1 is Left Shot, Button 2 is Right Shot, Button 3 is Bomb.

Yup! Tutorial movies, when available, are usually the first thing I check when looking for default button layouts. Was just wondering how ye olde arcades handled extra non-default buttons or if they bothered with those at all.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It depends on the game. Some quality arcades do setup the normally unused as autofire buttons for stuff like Mushi, or even for simply giving autofire in games that do not originally have it by wiring up and autofire circuit. Many high-end arcades offer extra buttons like this: viewtopic.php?p=1364360#p1364360

Button mashing is really overrated, thank goodness for technology letting us focus on the dodging and shooting.

[floralcateyes]

It depends on the game. Some quality arcades do setup the normally unused as autofire buttons for stuff like Mushi, or even for simply giving autofire in games that do not originally have it by wiring up and autofire circuit. Many high-end arcades offer extra buttons like this: viewtopic.php?p=1364360#p1364360

Button mashing is really overrated, thank goodness for technology letting us focus on the dodging and shooting.

Thanks so much for the link! That's exactly the kind of thing I find interesting. Whether or not some arcades actually had B autofire for Garegga was one specific case I had in mind. Would no longer be surprised to hear some arcade out there had B autofire for Pink Sweets lol.

[el3m]

How do you like the 8bitdo stick? I've been considering one for a wireless stick. I have wired options but sometimes I just get lazy.

I like the included 2,4ghz wireless option and the pcb is great for switch & pc. I've used it with 360 and Xbox series X as well with a Brook Wingman XB converter

For the price I got it it was great value, but there are some downsides. I'd say the stock parts are average or even better than your typical cheaper sticks, but no Sanwa or Seimitsu quality.
It's pretty difficult to mod with Seimitsu lever, ls-32&ls-40 do not fit for example. I've used ls-62 with mine, but that doesn't fully surface mount and it's already a short lever. (Sanwa JLF and Hori Hayabusa fit) great. Another thing is the small palm rest area, I'd prefer more surface left from the lever.

[BloodHawk]

I like to set "X" to be my autofire. This lets me rest my middle and ring fingers on it, without having to stretch my hand.

I then set Focus/Charge to be on "Y" so I can use my pointer finger to tap and hold when needed.

Finally, I set "B" to be bomb, so it's always a quick thumb tap.

That is exactly how I layout my controls as well.

Quick side note on the 8Bitdo wireless sticks, I have the older N30 model and while doing some input lag tests it has proven to be pretty responsive while wireless:

(Video captured at 240fps while averaging 50 measurements)
Averaged a measurement of 3.74 60Hz frames on Caladrius Blaze's Switch port (one of the fastest games I have found) while docked and displaying on a TV that rtings.com measured to have a 13.8ms response time (1080p 60Hz).

Since the new 8Bitdo stick is introducing new stuff like macros and other features I imagine there is a possibility of more input lag as a result, but I would be surprised if it was a significant amount.

[Wilsoncqb1911]

el3m and BloodHawk - thank you for the replies. I'll probably pick one up at some point then. Thanks again.

[Rastan78]

Kind of disappointing that the 8bitdo can't easily fit an LS-32. How is the battery life/charging time on it?

Regarding the accidental bombs, most players do fine with Sanwa buttons, which are very light. Sure you will get accidental inputs and screw ups when switching to any new input method. Just stick with it for a while and you will build up the muscle memory until it's second nature.

When looking for the original default layout of an arcade game you can always do a search for the original flyers or manual. Most of them are online somewhere.

What a great post by Plasmo! I think the only time I've ever seen such an esoteric setup with autofire applied to joystick direction inputs on a console port was the M2 Switch version of Wonder Boy: Monster Land where you can use this to easily trigger the extra coin bug.

[Acid]

Also, what gate do you use? square/octagonal/circular?

My lever doesn't have a gate, but it behaves like a circular gate with the stick only being restricted by a circular collar. But in a finesse game like a shmup, I'm not sure there's ever a reason to push the stick all the way to its restrictor so it might not matter.

[SPM]

2 more questions

I'm having a bit of trouble getting the up-right and down-left diagonals. Especially small taps. Is this just a matter of getting used to it?

Also, when tapping, if I'm not careful the lever goes back to its position with "so much" speed that it registers an input in the opposite direction, resulting in me going back to the position I wanted to leave, and dying

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It's mechanically easier to tap up/down/left/right rather than a diagonal on a stick, due to the way the stick's designed, and how it essentially hits two switches rather than one on diagonals (the up + right microswitches and the down + left microswitches). Some sticks are more smooth when hitting diagonals than others, but it sounds like a Seimitsu LS-32 won't fit in yours...

The other issue you described is sometimes called flickback/flick back/bouncing. It's fixed by using a stiffer/heavier set of springs. Again, it depends on the joystick how the stock springs perform. Seimitsu LS-32, the sticks I use, are tuned to be basically as springy as possible without any flickback. Good Sanwa sticks will also avoid this issue in my experience. I don't know what stick that controller uses or if the springs are moddable, sorry.

Oh, flickback also isn't limited to arcade sticks, either. Analog controllers can sometimes have this issue too, I've got a cheap PC gamepad that has noticeable flickback.

[el3m]

Kind of disappointing that the 8bitdo can't easily fit an LS-32. How is the battery life/charging time on it?

Yes it was a big disappointment since they advertised it being ultramoddable and mentioned LS-32 specifically. The included universal mounting plate is great and fits most/all sticks, but the problem is the height of the case. I read in reddit that someone drilled a hole in the case under the shaft which made LS-32 fit.

LS-62 is good short throw shmup lever that fits, but the mounting plate is ~4mm below the surface and you cannot use the SS plate that comes with LS-62 by default. I used mine with a battop for quite long time and it was great, the battop gives the extra height needed. There are shaft extensions and oversized shafts also if you'd want to mod it. I eventually swapped Sanwa JLF with a Kowal oversized actuator to mine, it's very good stick for all non-shmup arcade games and works quite good for shmups as well.

Battery time is great and it seems to charge quickly. edit: "40 hours of play time on 2.4g connection and 30 hours on bluetooth with 4 hour charging time" is what they promise

[Klatrymadon]

Installing an LS-32 using the provided universal plate might not be that bad, assuming the screw holes on the stick itself line up with those on the plate. It'll be mounted lower and you'll lose a few mm of shaft height, but I can't imagine it's enough to make it unusable? Just thinking aloud - I don't have an 8bitdo stick so I can't try it out, but I've definitely had the (already short) LS-62 mounted too low before and it was still very playable...

[Rastan78]

https://m.blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?b ... dit.com%2F

This blog shows that you can simply grind down the bottom plate and get enough clearance for an LS 32.

As far as losing a few mm of height due to the way the casing is designed, I wonder if it would be possible to grind down the reinforcing plastic ribs and then just mount the plate right to the top casing by drilling holes. I've mounted LS 32 to homemade joysticks this way and having rounded screws around the stick never bothered me. Just doesn't look as clean.

The question there is there will it still have enough rigidity? Probably after you have the added support of the steel mounting plate it would be ok. But also is that worth it? Probably better to just live with it being slightly too low or stay with a Sanwa or similar which this stick seems designed for.

Another thing that looks mildly annoying is that they didn't just go with the standard 5 pin connector that is universal between JLF and Seimitsu 01 series. Looks like 4 individual ground wires. That means you ought to use the older LS 32 non 01 model that you can solder to and do it that way or splice in your own connector.

Edit: another mod that shows how the LS 32 fits well to the universal mounting plate.

https://blog.mdnomad.com/2020/11/29/8bi ... h-windows/

[BloodHawk]

I eventually swapped Sanwa JLF with a Kowal oversized actuator to mine, it's very good stick for all non-shmup arcade games and works quite good for shmups as well.

On my older 8Bitdo N30 stick I also put in a Sanwa JLF with a 1mm oversized actuator and never looked back. Sometimes I use it for shmups as I usually prefer a D-Pad for those, but it's my go-to for beat 'em ups on the Switch.

Battery time is great and it seems to charge quickly. edit: "40 hours of play time on 2.4g connection and 30 hours on bluetooth with 4 hour charging time" is what they promise

Does the new 8Bitdo stick charge while playing wired? The N30 model doesn't, so in order to charge it I have to plug it in a power outlet using a phone charger. The charges still last a long time even though it only has half of the mAh of the new model.

[el3m]

This blog shows that you can simply grind down the bottom plate and get enough clearance for an LS 32.

Now I want to open mine and try this out, I have a LS-32 and can grind it a bit, I just didn't want to drill a complete hole into the case.
Mounting from the top would probably work as well, but I don't want to mod this to that extent, since I can use my LS-62 or JLF.

Another thing that looks mildly annoying is that they didn't just go with the standard 5 pin connector that is universal between JLF and Seimitsu 01 series. Looks like 4 individual ground wires. That means you ought to use the older LS 32 non 01 model that you can solder to and do it that way or splice in your own connector.

This actually is not as annoying as one might think, you can still use the -01 models. There are two main options: 1) using 5 soldering points in the PCB to solder a basic 5-pin cable (they are very clearly marked) 2) the stock lever uses 8-pin cable, you can modify a basic 5-pin to 5-pin cable a bit so it fits into the pcb's 8-pin header (just cut bit of the plastic off). I had a 5-pin to 5 seperate dupont connectors cable which also worked quite well, no soldering needed.

Does the new 8Bitdo stick charge while playing wired? The N30 model doesn't, so in order to charge it I have to plug it in a power outlet using a phone charger. The charges still last a long time even though it only has half of the mAh of the new model.

The stick seems to charge when used with a wired connection, it shows a battery indicator when it's in the off position and I've never seen it below 3/4

[Wilsoncqb1911]

I bought one of these arcade sticks and have been playing with it across various systems over the last few days. I'm really happy with it. It's a nice piece of kit. I sits well in the lap, since they added some weight to it. The size is small enough to be portable while still keeping my hands on it. I can see it being just a bit too small for some people, but for me it's fine. The buttons are fine, although they aren't as nice as the Hayabusas on Hori's sticks or Sanwas on my custom. The stick I initially hated. It's really light and didn't feel right initially. After a few days of playing I've adjusted and found it to be just fine. I was going to replace the lever but now I'm going to keep it as is.

The coolest part of this stick is the flexibility with wired, bluetooth, and 2.4ghz. Also, I love the inclusion of turbo. A God-send for a shmup fan. I'm using stick on Switch, but also with all my retro consoles given that I can easily sync it with 8bitdo's bluetooth dongles. So it's a great solution for Genesis, SNES, NES, etc. This is huge because it can be difficult to get good sticks for old consoles, especially the Genesis. For me this is killer.