Early LCD TVs with VGA Input Underrated?

[NewSchoolBoxer]

I don't have a CRT that handles 480p. Not sure I can justify buying an HD CRT for this one purpose.

I happen to have a 2010 LN40C600 series Samsung television. Is 1080p with a fairly impressive input array of RF, Component, Composite, HDMI, VGA (PC IN), Ethernet (LAN) and USB. No one talks about these early analog+digital LCDs but should we? Accepted my 240p SNES on Composite just fine.

Inputs: https://imgur.com/a/tFxw37G

Options include:
[*] Game Mode
[*] 16:9 and 4:3 swap
[*] Backlight, Brightness, Sharpness, Color, Tint (R/G) on same menu
[*] HDMI Black level, Black tone, RGB only mode, Color Space
[*] Color Tone with 4 levels including Warm1 and Warm2 (CRT-like?)

So seems possible to stop "crushing blacks" as we say.

I think being able to play every console on a single device without being forced into scalers or line doublers is desirable. With the rise of $300 50" 4K televisions, these 40" displays should be going for cheap.

[fernan1234]

Not sure if underrated is the right term. They can definitely be convenient, but you'll have to live with both motion blur (pixel response time is even worse on those old LCDs than on current ones) + persistence blur (inherent to all sample and hold displays).

That makes these a dealbreaker especially for most old games, except slow, text-heavy games overall. Lag could be another problem.

One the plus side as you pointed out they do have an advantage in connectivity and ease of use. They tend to have good deinterlacing also for SD content since it was still so prevalent back then, as well as good filtering for NTSC/PAL signals. The picture will look nice when there's not a lot of things moving on screen.

[ldeveraux]

Are you sure that Samsung is 1080p? Because a google search says differently.

I ask because a year ago I was looking for something similar. I needed VGA, HDMI, component inputs in 40" TV but it definitely had to be 1080p. I only needed VGA because I have it attached to a KVM and I wanted it to sleep on inactivity but not shut off. I finally settled on the Sceptre X405BV-FSR which is true 1080p and fits the bill perfectly. Glad I bought this even I could only find it refurbished.

[maxtherabbit]

Early LCD tvs tend to have a ton of input lag

[strayan]

I use an old Sony Bravia LCD for some line tripled 240p content.

Scanlines look good every third line.

The response time is terrible though.

[Guspaz]

A lot of the early LCD TVs with VGA input were restricted to VGA resolutions. So you end up with a "720p" television with a 768p panel that only accepts 1024x768 input over VGA or something like that.

Such TVs also often make it impossible to drive the panel at its native resolution. They'll only accept a 720p or 1080i signal which gets scaled to 768p, they don't have any way to disable overscan on analog inputs, they have a ton of input lag, poor response times, etc.

I'm not saying there aren't some out there that are good, but early LCD in general was pretty terrible.

[BONKERS]

If you drive the VGA from a PC then you can definitely get 1:1 pixel scaling. (Most GPU drivers will allow you to display anything under native res at 1:1 pixel mapping) But at that point you'd just be better off with HDMI (And an EDID override to make sure it only uses PC timings)
I have a similar era 768p Samsung. Doesn't have VGA but the 720p to 768p scaling isn't terrible, it only has around 30ms of latency (Measured with TS) , has good contrast and looks great with Streaming content (Hides a lot of visible compression issues) and 480p upscaled on 768p in my experience looks far better than scaled to 1080p or 4k. It doesn't calibrate well and when using proper 4:4:4 modes it locks off a lot of the visual settings. But for what it is, I still use that TV a lot.

[Guspaz]

The problem with the lack of 1:1 pixel scaling isn't on the GPU side, it's on the TV side. It's very common for TVs of that era to not support it at all, either by not supporting their native panel resolution as an input resolution, or having mandatory overscan, or some other such thing. For example, my old LG TV from that era would accept 1024x768, but not 1366x768, and there was no way to disable overscan, so 1:1 pixel scaling was impossible no matter which input or timings you used.

[Josh128]

I don't have a CRT that handles 480p. Not sure I can justify buying an HD CRT for this one purpose.

If you are watchful, you can get some insane 480p/1080i CRTs for pennies on the dollar. I just picked up a like new Sony 36" HD CRT for $20 about a month ago. The biggest problems with these sets are that you need moving dollies / hand trucks, moving blankets, ramps, and a lot of muscle just to get them where you want them. Oh and a lot of space too.

As for flat panels, 720p sets generally have better 480p scaling than 1080p sets and look decent. Even better, true 480p EDTV plasmas or LCDs look better than 1080p sets IMO.

[jd213]

I don't have a CRT that handles 480p. Not sure I can justify buying an HD CRT for this one purpose.

If you are watchful, you can get some insane 480p/1080i CRTs for pennies on the dollar. I just picked up a like new Sony 36" HD CRT for $20 about a month ago.

My foster parents actually paid someone to throw out a similar Sony a few years ago... I wanted to just have them store it in the basement for me, but I wouldn't have been able to use it much anyway considering how I can't even visit them much anymore. And even if I could get a good deal on such a TV here in Japan, I'd be worried about the floor collapsing (if not from weight then maybe in a big earthquake) since I already have two CRT monitors and hundreds of laserdiscs...

[tacoguy64]

I don't have a CRT that handles 480p. Not sure I can justify buying an HD CRT for this one purpose.

If you are watchful, you can get some insane 480p/1080i CRTs for pennies on the dollar. I just picked up a like new Sony 36" HD CRT for $20 about a month ago. The biggest problems with these sets are that you need moving dollies / hand trucks, moving blankets, ramps, and a lot of muscle just to get them where you want them. Oh and a lot of space too.

As for flat panels, 720p sets generally have better 480p scaling than 1080p sets and look decent. Even better, true 480p EDTV plasmas or LCDs look better than 1080p sets IMO.

If I needed an all in one type of solution, yeah i'd probably be taking a look at HD CRTs or early plasma as well before i take a look at an early LCD set. Josh, dont you have a sweet 720p plasma that even handles 240p connections without needing anything else? Something like that would be a good start.

[Josh128]

If I needed an all in one type of solution, yeah i'd probably be taking a look at HD CRTs or early plasma as well before i take a look at an early LCD set. Josh, dont you have a sweet 720p plasma that even handles 240p connections without needing anything else? Something like that would be a good start.

Yeah I have some 2013 and 2014 (last year of plasma production) Samsung 43" and 51" F4500 units, 2x 51"er's and 1x 43"er (bedroom TVs for me, my son, and my daughter). I also have the 51" 1080p version in the living room. All fantastic sets for the fire sale prices they were going for when I bought them. The 720p (actually anamorphic 768p) sets are to me, hands down better for 480p (DC,GC,Xbox,PS2) and 720p (X360,PS3) gaming than the 1080p version of the set. The scaling and very light SDE you get looks very close to native for 480p and for all intents and purposes IS native for 720p stuff. I was just comparing the Sony HD CRT to my F4500 plasma the other day for progressive scan Gamecube and the image output of both is remarkably similar.

They do work fine with 240p also, but its a softer output compared to the razor sharp integer-type scaled 240p you get on most 1080p sets. Given the choice, I actually rather the softer output for 240p vs. the overly grainy and sharp output, but its kind of a pick your poison thing - its not going to impress anyone looking for those nice SD CRT scanlines. Still though, its a perfectly passable 240p with a stunning top of the line 480p and 720p all in one set.

Here are some pictures of SOTN running on PS2 component with the sets internal 240p mode vs a PC HDMI connection with the PC outputting different modes. Illustrates the internal scalers 240p softness vs what the set is capable of with 3x scaling on PC.
Here is a picture of my NESRGB running via RGB-component converter on it.

Here and here are some pictures of DC running on it via VGA > Audio Authority VGA to Component converter.

Here are some shots of X360 running on it.

[NewSchoolBoxer]

Thanks for the input everyone!

you'll have to live with both motion blur (pixel response time is even worse on those old LCDs than on current ones) + persistence blur (inherent to all sample and hold displays).

I hadn't considered blur but that is very testable if I get down to it.

It's 1080p. A LN40C630K1F to be exact. I could imagine 1080i models having very similar names though. I had to look up what a KVM was. Seems like a good use to keep it on sleep mode and not off.

I wouldn't call a 2010 model early-early but if I'm testing blur, got to test LCD input lag too. Hopefully Game Mode will deliver.

Line tripling 240p, I like that. So scanlines aren't ideal but still there.

A lot of the early LCD TVs with VGA input were restricted to VGA resolutions.

Time to check! Page 10 of the manual shows all the D-SUB and HDMI resolutions. Not stuck to VGA but no interlace mode and no Sync on Green. I think PS2 RGB is in a bad spot. https://imgur.com/a/jQntGyv

it only has around 30ms of latency (Measured with TS)

I can live with 30ms. I like your scaling advice and things being good for 480p.

I just picked up a like new Sony 36" HD CRT for $20 about a month ago.

You know what, I looked at Facebook Marketplace and Craigslist and there are some cheap and free HD CRTs. I almost can't believe people giving them away. Not that I can lift a 36" either! I checked my invoice email and I paid $745 for "Samsung LN40C630 40-Inch 1080p 120 Hz LCD HDTV (Black)" and MSRP was over $1000. Well, PVMs used to go for 100x less than what they cost. Such is technology.

Yeah I have some 2013 and 2014 (last year of plasma production) Samsung 43" and 51" F4500 units

Hi Josh, thanks for the comparison pictures! They look good and sharp. I didn't even consider plasma televisions. They use similar CRT phosphor technology so I guess would display my SNES better than on an LCD with reduced input lag. I don't want to mess with scalars. Easy to play the 240p and 480i scientist with it raining outdated televisions. Still think I need an HD CRT solely for 480p games.

[Josh128]

Just beware of input lag on some of the HD CRTs. Some folks say even at 480p some of them have a good bit of input lag. With this Sony, there is definitely some noticeable input lag with 240p sources such as a SNES, probably around 3 frames / 48ms or so, but when connecting my Gamecube through component and using progressive 480p, I wasnt able to notice any lag-- but my testing was limited. Just something to beware of. As for my plasmas, they have about 32-37ms of input lag from what I tested. Not great, but passable to me. Definitely less noticable than the lag of the 240p of the Sony HD CRT.

I did have an awesome 36" Hitachi Ultravision Digital HD CRT back in the day, and I didnt notice any lag on it, but again I didnt have same knowledge and testing tools I have now.

[kitty666cats]

I did have an awesome 36" Hitachi Ultravision Digital HD CRT back in the day, and I didnt notice any lag on it, but again I didnt have same knowledge and testing tools I have now.

Nice! Was it 4:3? Dunno if I have ever seen any 16:9 Hitachi HDCRTs... also, was it one of the models with VGA?

[Josh128]

Yep it was 4:3 and had VGA (640x480 and 800x600) and component in. No HDMI. Metroid Prime was the first game I got to try with progressive scan 480p on it. It was fabulous.

The model was 36SDX88B. Apparently it retailed for $3k when it debuted. I got mine for ~$900, was a display unit at a Conn's store.

https://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-36SDX88B ... B00001Z3HG

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ ... television

Being committed to both big screen projection and direct view TV, Hitachi also offers SDX in a 36" direct view model. Just as with the 60", the 36SDX88B offers all time progressive scanning (480p) utilizing Hitachi's exclusive Flex Converter technology, and 1080i HDTV capability from a set-top box. Here Hitachi utilizes the UltraBlack Digital Pitch Invar picture tube (.78mm), which is 22% finer than a standard 36" picture tube. Other features include a Digital 3DYC comb filter, advanced velocity scan modulation, dynamic focus, SRS/BBE sound enhancements, Picture-in-PC, and a VGA input for true SVGA (800x600) resolution when used with a PC.

"Hitachi is committed to providing the best big screen projection and direct view TV's for the digital age," said Mr. Ramirez. "By utilizing the Digital Pitch picture tube and Flex Converter technology, we have designed a high definition ready 36" model that is also a true SVGA monitor for the digital living room of tomorrow." The 36SDX88B has a suggested retail price of $2,999 and will be available by the fourth quarter.

[kitty666cats]

Yep it was 4:3 and had VGA (640x480 and 800x600) and component in. No HDMI. Metroid Prime was the first game I got to try with progressive scan 480p on it. It was fabulous.

The model was 36SDX88B. Apparently it retailed for $3k when it debuted. I got mine for ~$900, was a display unit at a Conn's store.

https://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-36SDX88B ... B00001Z3HG

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ ... television

Being committed to both big screen projection and direct view TV, Hitachi also offers SDX in a 36" direct view model. Just as with the 60", the 36SDX88B offers all time progressive scanning (480p) utilizing Hitachi's exclusive Flex Converter technology, and 1080i HDTV capability from a set-top box. Here Hitachi utilizes the UltraBlack Digital Pitch Invar picture tube (.78mm), which is 22% finer than a standard 36" picture tube. Other features include a Digital 3DYC comb filter, advanced velocity scan modulation, dynamic focus, SRS/BBE sound enhancements, Picture-in-PC, and a VGA input for true SVGA (800x600) resolution when used with a PC.

"Hitachi is committed to providing the best big screen projection and direct view TV's for the digital age," said Mr. Ramirez. "By utilizing the Digital Pitch picture tube and Flex Converter technology, we have designed a high definition ready 36" model that is also a true SVGA monitor for the digital living room of tomorrow." The 36SDX88B has a suggested retail price of $2,999 and will be available by the fourth quarter.

Did it happen to have a separate 15kHz daughterboard that could do 240p component? RCA and ProScan has some late eta HD CRTs that were equipped to do so (as well as HD Component and VGA), they were for all intents and purposes multisync ‘presentation monitors’ aimed at consumers! Either way the Hitachi basically is, as well - plenty of 31+ kHz pres monitors

[Josh128]

No, it really was a TV, with a built in NTSC tuner (no ATSC /HD though), not a "monitor" per se as that marketing quote above tries to make it seem like. It accepted 240p via component natively, but line doubled the output to 31KHz as most other HDTV CRTs of the time did.

The flyback supposedly died in it ( I was told by a repair shop) and they couldnt find a replacement, so I sadly had to let it go. There were later models, silver colored but internally identical I believe, that I had seen floating around for several years after it died, I bet I could have obtained a flyback had I known back then what I know now.

I wish I had one today to test the input lag on 240p stuff-- I honestly didnt notice any lag back then with 240p like I do now on the Sony HD CRT I just got. But then again back then (circa late 2002) I was much less technically "woke" to such nuances than I am now.

Regardless, it was a curved tube HD CRT and I would highly recommend anyone looking for the ultimate 480p /1080i CRT to grab one if given the chance. I did most of my Gamecube gaming on it and to this day I hold it as the gold standard for displaying 480p gaming content, with the perfect amount of sharpness, size, geometry, and black levels.

[kitty666cats]

No, it really was a TV, with a built in NTSC tuner (no ATSC /HD though), not a "monitor" per se as that marketing quote above tries to make it seem like. It accepted 240p via component natively, but line doubled the output to 31KHz as most other HDTV CRTs of the time did.

The flyback supposedly died in it ( I was told by a repair shop) and they couldnt find a replacement, so I sadly had to let it go. There were later models, silver colored but internally identical I believe, that I had seen floating around for several years after it died, I bet I could have obtained a flyback had I known back then what I know now.

I wish I had one today to test the input lag on 240p stuff-- I honestly didnt notice any lag back then with 240p like I do now on the Sony HD CRT I just got. But then again back then (circa late 2002) I was much less technically "woke" to such nuances than I am now.

Regardless, it was a curved tube HD CRT and I would highly recommend anyone looking for the ultimate 480p /1080i CRT to grab one if given the chance. I did most of my Gamecube gaming on it and to this day I hold it as the gold standard for displaying 480p gaming content, with the perfect amount of sharpness, size, geometry, and black levels.

Sounds damn nice!

Here’s one of those wacky RCAs I speak of:

https://lowendmac.com/2019/rca-mm36100- ... t-display/



“As you can see, there are 2 VGA inputs (one with standard L/R RCA stereo audio inputs and another with line-in 3.5mm stereo audio mini-jack input) on the RCA MM36100 in addition to multiple S-Video, Component Video (480i/240p), audio outputs (including speakers) as well as RF antenna and even a built-in USB hub. This monitor truly has it all!“