Need Input - Hardest Saturn Shmups Standard Run

[ShmupJunkie]

Yes I know, yet another hardest shmups thread but please hear me out, as I legitimately looked high and low here and am still having a tough time of it. I just finished my video and posted it a couple weeks ago for
the Top 5 hardest shmups on the pc engine. That was a piece of cake for me as I know those games inside and out and have beaten most. So naturally, the Saturn would be a nice progression and I'm quite familiar
with most of the games as well, but not completely.

So far I've picked out the obvious Battle Garegga and Souky and played through them again and recorded video, as I knew I would include them in my top 5. I also did RSG and while I know it's not the hardest, it's brutal
to me personally as it's not the type of shooter I enjoy. Overly long and having a pretty slow ship speed... kind of overstays it's welcome so it's a slog for me to get through. So as a personal pick, I just have a tough time getting through it. I know others can just breeze through and love it.

But I've hit a wall on the last two.

An obvious pick is Image Fight, but because I just did it last video on the PC Engine, I'm avoiding duplicating games. So I am kind of stuck. There are plenty of reasonably tough games like Batsugun, Tiger II,
Guardian Force... I haven't played every single one, like I have on the PCE. So I am thinking I am missing a real beast or two somewhere. And these aforementioned ones aren't all that tough though not easy.

To clarify, this is for a standard playthrough, default settings. Not multiple loops or special circumstances like chaining in RSG. I am saving that for a separate vid. This is a straight forward, Top 5 most brutal shmups
category as most would play them and not veterans like most here. No compilations (Capcom, MSX, etc). Either a Saturn exclusive or Arcade port that's considered the best of that generation. So for example,
In the Hunt is definitely tough, but the PS1 port is generally superior without slowdown (and harder) so I'll save it for the PS1 picks. DDP is another but it makes much more sense to save the much
harder variants for when I do the Xbox360 picks. It's not the "definitive" DDP far as how crazy it can get. Unlike Souky, Batsugun, RSG, etc that are the definitive ports of those games.

So far my last 2 runner ups I've considered are
Batsugun
Tiger II
Guardian Force
Layer Section

and some to consider though they may not be hard enough
Shienryu
Kingdom Grand Prix ( I haven't played this one enough to know for sure)
Darius Gaiden?

For comparison, my PC Engine picks were Rayxanber 2, Tatsujin, Image Fight 2, RType and Gradius 2. Gradius mainly because you pretty much have to no death it past level 4 or so. And I finished every one.

I'm looking for brutal and I'm drawing a blank on anything at that level for my last couple picks. I posted on a Saturn FB group I follow as well as on an IG account I use and got some good suggestions above.
But nothing jumps out at me yet as truly brutal like some of my PCE picks. And I know plenty here can fill in those gaps for me. What else am I missing?

[SuperDeadite]

Planet Joker.

[ACSeraph]

Definitely not Darius Gaiden, it's really not a difficult game. Darius II is much harder but the Saturn port is kinda shit.

[EmperorIng]

Since you are leaving out loops, games like Kingdom Grandprix and Shienryu become significantly 'easier.' Though, I still found Sheinryu, especially its later stages, to be quite tough. A lot of the STV ports on the Saturn I find particularly challenging for the 1cc: Shienryu, Guardian Force, RSG, even Cotton 2.

Guardian Force might be the hardest of those because the game is quite long, it plays in an unorthodox way, and there are many boss encounters that can get the better of you. I remember Shienryu being a really hard clear but that was when I was less skilled in the genre.

Sexy Parodius might be another contender, as its rank/difficulty for the 1cc can become quite brutal, especially if you are going for the 'good' ending. It's also out on the PS1 but both versions are considered about equal. Similarly with Twinbee Yahho, which has a very diabolical difficulty, punishing rank system, and a ps1 port that's about equal with the Saturn.

I find Layer Section/RayForce hard, but playing on MAME you see that the Saturn version had its difficulty substantially lowered (unless the AC difficulty on the Saturn is actually labeled as "Hard 2", still unproven). So that might not be the best example.

[To Far Away Times]

Batsugun is challenging but far from a top 5 hardest list. I think I was able to 1CC it in four days.
It is a great game though.

[Ddshot]

Dodonpachi!


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[Austin]

On default settings, Layer Section should not be on that list. One of the easiest shooters on the system.

Darius Gaiden *should* be on the list if you're playing with stock auto-fire. With a turbo controller or rapid fire cheat, then it should not be on the list.

You're splitting hairs with the "well I'm not going to include this game or that game because it's not the definitive version of the game." The topic is about the top hardest shmups on the system, so include the games regardless. Dodonpachi absolutely should be on it. Likewise with Battle Garegga. Also consider when these games were released. At the time the Saturn (and in some cases the PS1) were the only places you could get these outside of arcades. Even to this day, people still tend to associate ports of games like Dodonpachi with the PS1/Saturn ones since they've been around the longest.

Regarding the In the Hunt comment in the original post, it's a pretty easy game when you know what to do. It's more like a run 'n gun where you find a very specific rhythm and route through the game, then once you know it you can execute on that route consistently. I spent about five hours in a single session last year and by the end of it was able to get to the TFB without dying, and I'm not even all that good. It shouldn't be on any "hardest shmups" list if we're limiting it to default difficulty modes.

Also agreed with previous posts about Batsugun. It's tough, but not in the hardest tier, not by a long shot.

I'd personally stick at least one Psikyo game on there.

[ShmupJunkie]

On default settings, Layer Section should not be on that list. One of the easiest shooters on the system.

You're splitting hairs with the "well I'm not going to include this game or that game because it's not the definitive version of the game." The topic is about the top hardest shmups on the system, so include the games regardless. Dodonpachi absolutely should be on it. Likewise with Battle Garegga. Also consider when these games were released. At the time the Saturn (and in some cases the PS1) were the only places you could get these outside of arcades. Even to this day, people still tend to associate ports of games like Dodonpachi with the PS1/Saturn ones since they've been around the longest.

I'd personally stick at least one Psikyo game on there.

Thank you. I like your point on not sticking with definitive versions, especially in regards to DDP as it absolutely belongs on there with Garegga (which was guaranteed a spot). It may also make for a more fun comparison
later when I do get to the crazier variants like Ketsui on the X360 down the road. Since I am having trouble with my last couple picks adding DDP makes it a ton easier and it belongs there. So thanks for that. It also makes
it easier on me since I'm familiar enough with the game.

Good point on the Psikyo games too as none are easy... they just didn't initially strike me as brutal. But if I did go with one, I guess it's a close choice between Strikers II, Sengoku Blade and Gunbird. They are all kind of
in that same ballpark. I actually haven't played Sengoku Blade in a long while. If you had to choose one of those, which way would you lean?

[ShmupJunkie]

Since you are leaving out loops, games like Kingdom Grandprix and Shienryu become significantly 'easier.' Though, I still found Sheinryu, especially its later stages, to be quite tough. A lot of the STV ports on the Saturn I find particularly challenging for the 1cc: Shienryu, Guardian Force, RSG, even Cotton 2.

Guardian Force might be the hardest of those because the game is quite long, it plays in an unorthodox way, and there are many boss encounters that can get the better of you. I remember Shienryu being a really hard clear but that was when I was less skilled in the genre.

Sexy Parodius might be another contender, as its rank/difficulty for the 1cc can become quite brutal, especially if you are going for the 'good' ending. It's also out on the PS1 but both versions are considered about equal. Similarly with Twinbee Yahho, which has a very diabolical difficulty, punishing rank system, and a ps1 port that's about equal with the Saturn.

I find Layer Section/RayForce hard, but playing on MAME you see that the Saturn version had its difficulty substantially lowered (unless the AC difficulty on the Saturn is actually labeled as "Hard 2", still unproven). So that might not be the best example.

Good point on Sexy and Twinbee. I never thought of them as overly hard (but not easy), but if you count actually getting a good ending that does make Sexy harder than quite a few others on here. I will definitely consider that
as an option... although I guess if a "bad" ending still counts as a clear then it's not so bad. I personally found Layer Section on Saturn not very tough at all either... not even close to Souky, so I doubt I would include it either honestly.
At least on it's default setting like you mentioned.

[ShmupJunkie]

Planet Joker.

LOL, maybe for the worst shmups on the system video. But in all honesty I never even gave the game more than a passing play out of curiosity, so now I'm genuinely curious if it's hard simply due to poor design. I can't say I played it long enough to find out.

[ACSeraph]

Darius Gaiden *should* be on the list if you're playing with stock auto-fire. With a turbo controller or rapid fire cheat, then it should not be on the list.

Still disagree. I got my first clear of Gaiden auto-off on Saturn in less than two weeks playing only a credit or two a day. Darius II on the other hand took months of bashing my skull against the T.V. screen. No way I would ever put Gaiden over 2 difficulty-wise.

[ShmupJunkie]

On default settings, Layer Section should not be on that list. One of the easiest shooters on the system.

You're splitting hairs with the "well I'm not going to include this game or that game because it's not the definitive version of the game." The topic is about the top hardest shmups on the system, so include the games regardless. Dodonpachi absolutely should be on it. Likewise with Battle Garegga. Also consider when these games were released. At the time the Saturn (and in some cases the PS1) were the only places you could get these outside of arcades. Even to this day, people still tend to associate ports of games like Dodonpachi with the PS1/Saturn ones since they've been around the longest.

In regards to DDP I just did a playthrough on Arcade mode so that one is in. Just as hard as I remember it, lol. I'm not practiced enough to get the special boss at the end unfortunately, so my game ends at the mech.
I chose not to play the Saturn special version since it's easier and not the default more difficult mode. I did however clear it without any continues, so I forget now what requirements have to be met to get the
Bee special boss on Arcade mode.

On that note, if you or anyone would like to contribute your gameplay of that final boss, I would be more than happy to give you a shout out in the video and credit you and your channel for any gameplay clips I use
from it. Along with a Card tagged during that clip to your full video. My channel is still rather new and small, but I have a great few hundred subs that all are into shmups and provide a lot of interaction in my vids, so maybe
you or someone could gain some subs that way while you're at it.

Either way thanks for the perspective on DDP. I'm glad I chose to include it. Been a couple years since I truly played it to clear it and I forget how awesome and hard it is. Took every last life and only 1 bomb remaining
to clear it on Arcade mode.

[FRO]

Strikers 1945 II would be a strong candidate, especially considering the 2nd loop, but even 1st loop is pretty brutal.

[To Far Away Times]

I feel like you could make a top 5 out of Battle Garegga and however many Psikyo gamed were ported to Saturn.

Psikyo games are hard AF. I feel like you need the memorization of something like R-Type plus a good level of dexterity to make it through. Most shooters rarely require a high level of play in both skills and will lean towards one or the other. Though I will admit I haven't sunk a ton of time into their games. Maybe 10 hours total across Gunbird and Sengoku Blade.

[ShmupJunkie]

I really appreciate all the feedback so far and it's helped a good bit. It allowed me to weed out some I was already on the fence about.

So my Top 4 out of 5 so far are:

1. Battle Garegga
2. DDP
3. Souky
4. RSG (I find it overly long and difficult, I know many don't, but it's no cakewalk at it's length)

For number 5 I will "officially" choose Image Fight, as it would be criminal not to given it's brutality. It's also the only old school shmup that kicks you back to checkpoints when you die. It has to technically be one of the 5. However, since I just did it on the PC Engine I don't want to just recycle gameplay only on the Saturn. I'll make a card that says, if you want to see how brutal this one is, check out my other video with it. It's part 2 but they are very close in level, design and difficulty, for anyone that's played both. The first is the better game, and clearly the Saturn is the best port, but they're both quite similar in difficulty and some levels and bosses are very close. I personally find the penalty zone in Part 2 harder than the first, as it gives you zero power ups and options. You pretty much have to survive through it with a pea shooter.

So I am still going to pick a "5th" game to actually play through for the video, and so far it looks like any Psikyo shooter would be a solid choice. Just deciding between Strikers II or possibly one of the others.

[Stevens]

Strikers 1945 II would be a strong candidate, especially considering the 2nd loop, but even 1st loop is pretty brutal.

Psikyo is a company I both love and hate. Love their games, hate them cause I just can't play them. I get abused by fast bullets. I guess Raiden IV might as well be Psikyo too:D

[Jonpachi]

Can't wait for the video MTP! I haven't played Soukyugurentai in years, so this is getting me hyped to give it another shot. I remember really enjoying it but never getting the 1CC.

[ShmupJunkie]

Can't wait for the video MTP! I haven't played Soukyugurentai in years, so this is getting me hyped to give it another shot. I remember really enjoying it but never getting the 1CC.

Souky was awesome I always enjoy that one. I didn't 1CC it but I was still decent... think I used one continue to get through. Wasn't bad for not having played through it in a while. Plus I have to save a state at the start
of each level so I can go back and get certain footage I want to show things and replay certain spots, so even if I did it wouldn't have counted anyway haha. I forgot how tough that final level is with the water and subs, that
one kicked my ass until I played through it a couple times and remembered enemy placements.

[FRO]

Strikers 1945 II would be a strong candidate, especially considering the 2nd loop, but even 1st loop is pretty brutal.

Psikyo is a company I both love and hate. Love their games, hate them cause I just can't play them. I get abused by fast bullets. I guess Raiden IV might as well be Psikyo too:D

I also have a love/hate relationship with Psikyo. They make awesome games, but the fast bullets make them hard to love sometimes.

[Aquas]

I played Planet Joker all the way through, first try 1 credit clear. It has some broken stuff that makes it really easy, I think one of the mechanics was ramming enemies to do major damage. Certainly not a contender. SuperDeadites post was a joke.

Planet Joker is long, has a lot voiced anime portrait skits, with below average gameplay, below average graphics... I'm not sure much is great about it besides the modicum of charm some may derive from it. Which I did.

[MathU]

On default settings, Layer Section should not be on that list. One of the easiest shooters on the system.

Did Rayforce receive a significant difficulty reduction for its Saturn port or something? I have always found it to be a brutal, claustrophobic game. Granted, at least half the time my own deaths are from trying to get a nice chain.

[Ddshot]

Hyperdual!


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[Austin]

On default settings, Layer Section should not be on that list. One of the easiest shooters on the system.

Did Rayforce receive a significant difficulty reduction for its Saturn port or something? I have always found it to be a brutal, claustrophobic game. Granted, at least half the time my own deaths are from trying to get a nice chain.

Chaining definitely makes it more difficult since you're letting the enemies stay on the playfield longer, thus they are more of a threat. If you're mostly focusing on survival and being aggressive with your lasers, the game's not bad at all. Last two stages can be tricky, but it's mostly about just knowing what's coming up and prioritizing certain enemies properly.

Personally I've always found Raystorm to be significantly more challenging. Actually, that brings up a good point--Layer Section 2 *is* on the Saturn. If either of them are going to be on a list like this, it should be Part 2.

[ShmupJunkie]

Well I just played through Strikers 2 and I think that was a good choice out of the Psikyo Saturn lineup. Maybe it's the odd hitbox (feels larger?) or the compressed play area, but man was it rough toward the end stages.
Stuff I could get away with in Garegga and the small hitbox wasn't happening here... squeezing through patterns felt inordinately harder. The bosses didn't have a ton of hit points so a couple well placed
bombs speed things up. I also like to use the Ta152 so that charge shot/shield helps a ton. But after playing through it, at least to me, it's a good level harder than either Layer Section.

I don't own this one on Saturn yet, so I had to play it on Retroarch and couldn't use Tate like I do with my TV, which I have on a rotating arm for that. So I played in Original 1 which felt very compressed and like
there wasn't enough room for the bullet patterns to spread out as the screen wasn't full length. Was I playing it the extra hard way? I tried Original 2 but that makes the screen scroll up and down when you move...
no way jose I couldn't even get my bearings when I tried it.

This one felt extra tough as well because you can't continue in the later stages, so that 3 stock is all you get to run that last level which was no joke. I feel it was a good choice at the moment.

[Austin]

Tate is actually harder in Strikers II. Since the screen is no longer cut off, you have more objects on the screen spewing bullets your way.

Regarding patterns, you definitely don't do as much weaving in and out of tight bullet patterns as a bullet hell, but there's still some of it there. You'll learn to recognize the parts where you have to dodge between bullets versus making big sweeping motions and just getting out of the way. The different planes have different hitboxes too (I believe), so you will find it's easier to dodge with some as opposed to others.

[ShmupJunkie]

Tate is actually harder in Strikers II. Since the screen is no longer cut off, you have more objects on the screen spewing bullets your way .

Hard to imagine but I believe it. I did play this proper long ago but it's been a while. The later form of the final boss felt a bit unfair as it takes up most of the screen, leaving maybe the bottom third for your plane.
When it shoots out it feels like the bullets are already on top of you without a chance to spread out or create much of a gap to squeeze through. I think I'd heard that they slowed the shots down a bit for the mode
for that reason, but I'd have to play it back to back to know for sure.

Either way I think it was a good recommendation as a pick. The last level especially kicked my ass for a while. No 1CC here that's for sure The fact a continue kicks you back to the level start definitely
makes it tough like it should be. I'm all for continues as it sucks starting a game all over when you want to just practice a level, but having continues bring your right back where you died always feels a bit
cheap in games. So I like that this one makes you beat it legit once you get farther in. TBH though Garegga and DDP are two I wouldn't be good enough to finish the final stage if that were the case.

[ShmupJunkie]

Well, for anyone interested, I just posted up the video so it's live now. I'm new to this so if anyone has any feedback on what I can improve for future vids please let me know. I need the constructive criticism.

Huge thanks BTW to everyone who gave me some great suggestions here. I made sure to give the forum here a shout out as it was really helpful in nailing down my last two choices!

Here is a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2WYx04TGzQ

Or you can search up Shmup Junkie on youtube it should come up.

[Gamer707b]

For those saying Layer Section is "easy" you must be super skilled cause it took me a long while to get the clear on Saturn. Also , again , for me Darius Gaiden auto fire off is pretty hard. I have played it on and off for a couple years and haven't got a clear . Im not shy to say , I am not very skilled at shmups, but love to play them nonetheless. Props though to those that can breeze through these games. But back to the question, my picks would be Radiant Silvergun and Battle Garegga.

[Austin]

Compared to games like Garegga or Dodonpachi, Layer Section is a Spring time picnic in comparison.

[ShmupJunkie]

My final picks ended up being Garegga, DDP, RSG, Souky and Strikers II. Technically Image Fight was in Strikers spot I just didn't want to duplicate from PC Engine I just did, but I mentioned it as it absolutely, bar none belonging
in the discussion.

I'm on to Mega Drive now for the next one which I am more familiar. So far I've finished Undeadline already (honestly not as hard as I remember, but not easy), and going to do Eliminate Down next along with Air Buster. Those
were always rough for me even though AB is even harder on the PCE. Then I'll have 2 spots left again for maybe Gaiares and Grind Stormer, but I'm not jumping to conclusions on those, as I bet there are some other MD games
that are crazy tough I hadn't though of yet to knock them out of a spot. Tatsujin is the obvious one, but again I just did it on PCE so I will mention it, but no need to duplicate it in gameplay. I have heard that the PCE version is
tougher up until the last section, and then suddenly the MD version gets crazy hard. But I've never completely played through it on MD myself.