What is the 480i->240p from an extron supposed to look like?

[oldgamer]

What is the 480i->240p transformation from an Extron RGB interface supposed to look like?

I got here these units: 192v, 201 rxi and 203 rxi.

I'm imagining that the transformation talked about means the one you get you turn on the DDSP switch on the 201/203 rxi. For the 192v this transformation seems to be on all the time, regardless of the position of the DDSP dip switch.

The resulting image doesn't look like a full-on 240p, it looks more like a 480i but with much less flickering, the strong scanlines that I normally see in 240p content are not present (I use a regular SD crt tv).

However, I was just seeing a pic from a game being displayed through a vsc 700 + rgb 201rxi combo in Fudoh's website. It looks like strong 240p scanlines, don't know if that's the case because it's a bvm but mine doesn't look like that.



* I hope it's ok to link to it.

The pic I'm talking about is the ESPGaluda II one, on this page http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/.

EDIT: I want to make a partial retraction on this post and say that the 480->240p effect seen seems to be generated by windows rather than the Extron units mentioned. I've seen 240p coming from a device that doesn't go through the extrons, but the effect is still there, meaning it's not generated by the Extrons in the chain (i suppose it's Windows doing something).

Also tried a snes->component-> extron 203xi chain, and the hoped for 480i->240p effect is not there, so the 203xi doesn't seem to work for this purpose.

[Fudoh]

Which source and which monitor ?

The 240p "conversion" does work, but all it does, is remove the 0.5 line offset to make the display switch between interlaced and non-interlaced. It doesn't change else anything about the source signal. If you feed a genuine 480i signal into it, the fields still won't match each other (in terms of vertical offset). This is probably why the image still seems interlaced to you.

What the Extron VSC 700 in my example does (with it's vertical filter), is creating a 480i that already mimics a 240p signal in terms of resolution and motion between adjacent lines, so the following "conversion" gets much easier.

If you want to see the effect full on without using a VSC unit, take a game that does really run in 240p and is just getting output in 480i. Sengoku Blade or Dragon Blaze on PS2 or one of the low-res Cave conversions on the 360 (Futari, ESP2 or MMP). You might have to tweak the game's internal position by a line (vertically) to get a good result, but you'll see that it works.

[oldgamer]

Which source and which monitor ?

Source is a desktop pc sending 480i to a SDTV Trinitron, actually just the windows 7 desktop.

If you want to see the effect full on without using a VSC unit, take a game that does really run in 240p and is just getting output in 480i.

... You might have to tweak the game's internal position by a line (vertically) to get a good result, but you'll see that it works.

So I tried retroarch with a 1280x480 viewport. I'm impressed with how playable 224p/240p content become in 480i, the difference in flickerness is huge between 480i->240p effect on and off. Only a few image elements remain kind of flickery.

I also noticed filters like bilinear and cubic also help diminish remaining flickerness. Does the VSC's vertical filter do something similar?

Moving the image +- 1 line up and down doesn't seem to make a difference that I could notice.

I still don't get proper 240p scanlines like your image does. Don't know if that's because a bvm has visible scanlines even in 480i mode or what.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Hi,

You need to make sure you're sending an unfiltered line doubled picture. Both fields have to be the same for this to work properly. Beware the antiflicker filter Windows sometimes uses for interlaced signals.

[oldgamer]

Hi,

You need to make sure you're sending an unfiltered line doubled picture. Both fields have to be the same for this to work properly. Beware the antiflicker filter Windows sometimes uses for interlaced signals.

Never heard about this anti flicker filter of Windows. How do you know whether it's activated or not?

[Bassa-Bassa]

It depends on which Windows, graphic card and the drivers you're using. Unless they're really old, chances are that you're getting the filter. I'd recommend a visit to Groovymame's forum as it's there where I learned about this. You can use the latest Emudriver by Calamity to totally disable the antiflicker filter (and then, make sure your program/game in question isn't adding any filter by itself, obviously).

[nes.og]

Which source and which monitor ?

The 240p "conversion" does work, but all it does, is remove the 0.5 line offset to make the display switch between interlaced and non-interlaced. It doesn't change else anything about the source signal. If you feed a genuine 480i signal into it, the fields still won't match each other (in terms of vertical offset). This is probably why the image still seems interlaced to you.

What the Extron VSC 700 in my example does (with it's vertical filter), is creating a 480i that already mimics a 240p signal in terms of resolution and motion between adjacent lines, so the following "conversion" gets much easier.

If you want to see the effect full on without using a VSC unit, take a game that does really run in 240p and is just getting output in 480i. Sengoku Blade or Dragon Blaze on PS2 or one of the low-res Cave conversions on the 360 (Futari, ESP2 or MMP). You might have to tweak the game's internal position by a line (vertically) to get a good result, but you'll see that it works.

So the Emotia and VSC can both do 480P/480i to 240P if used in conjunction with an RGB unit?

Is one method better than the other?

I have read your webpage and searched the forum but am unsure.

Thanks

[orange808]

@nes.og
It might be more practical to wait and build a solution based on the OSSC Pro next year. At some point, there will probably be a full frame buffered deinterlacing option that properly deinterlaces 480i and outputs 240p--eliminating concerns about flicker filtering with about one frame of latency. Many PS2 and 3DO users will want the feature, so I believe it will happen.

[nes.og]

Thanks for your response orange808.

I’m going to try out the GBS Control for downscaling

As far as the Extron method it seems that you need a RGB 580xi unless you have an Emotia or VSC then you can get away with using other RGB models.

[kitty666cats]

As far as I know, you’re never going to get actual 240p from a VSC and an RGB interface, just 480i that looks like 240p, but still detected as 480i if you were to plug it into an OSSC or something like that. GBS Control will supply legitimate 240p from 480p or 480i, and then the Emotia will do 480p to 480i or 240p but you can’t do 480i to 240p with it.

You’re golden with GBS Control for forcing 240p, and for less $ than a VSC and RGB interface

[nes.og]

Thanks for the info kitty666cats

[kitty666cats]

I’m actually not 100% sure that the 240p/“non-interlace” from the Emotia is processed as 240p if one were to take the downscaled image and feed it to an OSSC or other device that properly recognizes 240p as an input resolution - pretty sure it does, though? Fudoh and many other folks from here who’ve toyed with said unit know for sure. But obviously Emotia = tons of $ nowadays, bleh!

[Fudoh]

Yes, you can feed the Emotia's 240p output into other processors and it will still be recognized as proper 240p.
The horizontal resolution/sampling will be kept at 720px though, so you can't tune in a lower resolution sampling on the OSSC.