Emulators vs real hardware. What do you guys think?

[Classicgamer]

I've started noticing videos on YouTube lately with people comparing real hardware to emulation. Almost invariably, they end up using a handful of buggy games to generalize that emulation as a whole is not as good as playing on real hardware. I think that they are wrong.

My view is that working emulators (I.e. Finished and not WIP) when set up correctly (with CRT EMU), outputting native res and refresh, using decent lag free joysticks and output onto the correct display type (I.e. Crt), are indistinguishable from playing on real hardware.

I am super picky. I did a side by side with the SF2 arcade PCB vs my mame set-up recently on the same monitor, same res, same refresh etc and I can't see or feel any difference at all.

What do you guys think? Is emulation always flawed in some way, or is it just that those YouTube guys don't understand how to set up an emulator to run correctly?

[bigbadboaz]

I'm with you. Obviously there are differences under the hood, but - properly configured - I doubt there are many people who could really tell the difference in a blind scenario.

Now, real hardware/carts for collecting/nostalgia/authenticity is a totally legitimate thing, but it's a different argument. I think a lot of people shit on emulation either to justify the continued existence of their collection, or because they're unable to separate that attachment from an evaluation of the pure playing experience.

At the very least, what can be acheived now through emulation is absolute worlds closer than what we used to get - and in many cases be very happy with - with home console ports from vastly superior hardware just a few generations back. In light of that comparison, the amount of noise and whining some people kick up when discussing emulation really does come out looking ridiculous.

[strygo]

I'll come at this from the other direction.

I was a huge fan of emulators in the 90s. Seeing pixel perfect Nintendo games on iNES was amazing. When NESticle came out, it was earth shattering. As a teen, I had a chance to relive the games of my pre-teen years again on my computer. I continued to play on emulators until more recently. For the most part, as you indicate, they can be made to work great.

That being said, there's a lot of work needed to configure an emulator. You need adapters if you want to use the real controllers. Even if you use a Pi with RetroArch, you've got a lot to configure. You'll occasionally come upon an incompatibility or a glitch. However, if you instead use a real system with an EverDrive, everything works perfectly. So while you can compromise, if you have the system, the games, the disposable income, etc., why make the sacrifice?

Obviously, there will come a day when the emulation or hosting environment are perfect or much closer to perfect (think SuperNt), but in the meantime, why not enjoy the games on original hardware?

[evil_ash_xero]

If it can emulate it properly, with no lag. And you can make it look semi-close to a CRT or whatever you like...Emulation's fine.

It's just the lag, and a lot of problems with systems, once you hit the 32 bit era, where things go a little nutty.

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

I am a casual - from this point of view there is no real difference when it comes to playing.. I watched LIVE at MagFest speed runs of Megaman X series.. those guys adjust to "lag" with no problems. What I see a difference is on the time that it takes to setup right emulators VS real hardware but real hardware takes a lot of space. I am know looking for something small, portable and easy to use and SmokeMonster reminded me of the MiSTer and that is what I will be moving forward to.. I still need a pie for MAME with a Retrotink Ultimate. The MiSTer, a PIE and a CRT is a very cool solution for a casual.

[James-F]

I think for 16bit systems the emulation is almost indistinguishable from real hardware.
But for anything 32bit (3D consoles) and up emulation is far from perfect, well maybe besides PS1.
N64 emulation for example is in abysmal state, not even close in terms of framerate or graphics handling, and full of hacks to make things work.
PS2 is in a good place but it is also full of hacks and optimizations.

I would suggest staying with the real consoles for anything above 16bit if accuracy and authentic gameplay are important to you.

[donluca]

I am super picky. I did a side by side with the SF2 arcade PCB vs my mame set-up recently on the same monitor, same res, same refresh etc and I can't see or feel any difference at all.

...and still, you managed to get one of those games which are still not properly emulated as an example.

CPS1/2 emulation is inaccurate due to the missing emulation of wait states which create timing issues, like the game going slightly faster or slower and parts where slowdown is involved (either due to how it was coded or the CPU being over 100%) getting even more inaccuracies, with some extreme examples where the slowdown is completely missing.

One example is when you throw an hadouken or do the classic shoto ToD (touch of death) combo (ie: j.HK s.HP DP): there's heavy slowdown involved and it's not the same as the arcade cab.

Emulation is cool for trying out games and see if you like them or playing them in a casual way, maybe with your friends.

If you're serious about the game (playing competitively, going for high scores, etc...) then for lots of games a real PCB is the only way to go.

EDIT: speaking of consoles... several 8-bit and 16-bits consoles emulators are pretty decent, with the greatest weakness lying in the audio department where there's still work to be done. Anything newer and all hell breaks loose.

[cr4zymanz0r]

I end up striving for perfection in my gaming setup. While theoretically I'd probably be fine for emulators on many games if I could get past the purist mindblock, when I do hear/see a glitch/inaccuracy I can't unsee/unhear it and it drive me nuts . Let's assume 98% of SNES games run fine an emulator. Well if I end up playing one of those 2% of games that don't then I need a real SNES. If I already have to use a real SNES for some of those 2% of games, I might as well use it for all the games .

I think last year I tried to use emulation for something more than just testing or tinkering. I wanted to play the DS Castlevania games on bigger screen, which with real hardware would take some development/capture kit that's rare and expensive. I loaded up a DS emulator, and within 5 minutes I'd already hit an obvious visual glitch which killed it for me.

[nmalinoski]

I'm a fan of the original hardware, but with the caveat that I'm more and more prefer using modifications and peripherals that modernize the experience, because it helps to keep these old systems usable well beyond what would be their lifespan otherwise.

For example, I've modified my childhood N64 with an UltraHDMI, which helps me use it on modern displays without a bevy of legacy AV equipment, which in turn lets me simply bring my console and controllers to a friend's house and play on their modern, HDMI-only TV with zero fuss; and I've been using an EverDrive 64 so I can both leave my original games in their boxes in a plastic tub and try games that are otherwise unobtanium, including the very expensive and the very rare, as well as homebrew and romhacks.

Sure, it is and is going to be more expensive than emulation; but there's also more of a simplicity to it. I can use the original controllers and peripherals; I don't need to track down rare, long-discontinued USB adapters for original controllers, nor do I need to deal with the input lag generated by them (Not sure about N64 USB adapters, but I know first-hand that PlayStation ones can be pretty bad); I don't need to figure out how to build or configure a PC or a Raspberry Pi system--everything is plug-and-play.

Other have touched on this, but I agree that there is a degree of purism and fidelity provided by original hardware, especially beyond 16-bit consoles. A huge example for me is the poor emulation of Top Gear Rally, which I grew up playing and still enjoy today; to my knowledge, audio module programmers have yet to fix the audio issues with this game, where I end up having to choose between having music in the menus or music during gameplay, but I can't have both. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Of course, this doesn't happen on original hardware, because, if it did, the game would probably have been either delayed or recalled.

[Classicgamer]

I'm with you. Obviously there are differences under the hood, but - properly configured - I doubt there are many people who could really tell the difference in a blind scenario.

Now, real hardware/carts for collecting/nostalgia/authenticity is a totally legitimate thing, but it's a different argument. I think a lot of people shit on emulation either to justify the continued existence of their collection, or because they're unable to separate that attachment from an evaluation of the pure playing experience.

At the very least, what can be acheived now through emulation is absolute worlds closer than what we used to get - and in many cases be very happy with - with home console ports from vastly superior hardware just a few generations back. In light of that comparison, the amount of noise and whining some people kick up when discussing emulation really does come out looking ridiculous.

That's exactly what I think and for exactly the same reasons.

I also think the supposed benefits of using real hardware are not thought through. For example, "it takes less time to set-up real hardware to run right". How much time is wasted by those people on tracking down and buying all those old games and hardware and how much time did it take to earn the money they spent on it. At this point, I could set-up an emulator PC with CRT EMU in less than 2 hours, including the time to build the PC.

Once installed, and this is the key thing these people don't seem to understand, CRT EMU with Groovymame does 98% of the work automatically. For the other 2%, it's all quick. It's only arcade games that use a bunch of obscure resolutions and refresh rates. For the most part, consoles use one or a small number so they are easy to set up once.

"Using shaders or not playing games as they were meant to be played". Neither was playing 240p on a 1080p 16:9 panel. For people that don't want to use a CRT, emulators offer the only way to make old games look passable. If you are playing on a crt at native res and refresh, that is exactly as they were meant to be played (with no perceivable lag either).

Also, I don't consider the joypad to be part of the authentic experience. Even in the 80's and 90's, there was a broad range of 3rd party sticks and pads. They were often necessary. Playing Street Fighter 2 on the original SNES pad was awful. Zangief's spinning pile driver was near impossible...

I can understand collectors buying original hardware and games but spending hundreds of dollars on a flash cartridge in 2018 is idiotic.

[Kez]

I can understand collectors buying original hardware and games but spending hundreds of dollars on a flash cartridge in 2018 is idiotic.

We all want different things from the hobby I guess. For many people the prospect of building and setting up a CRT emu machine is also pointless when you can just use a regular monitor or TV. Many people also generally dislike the way scanlines look, or the way professional monitors look compared to consumer sets.

Personally, I have played around with emulators a lot and for reasons I can't explain it just doesn't work for me. I spend a bunch of time tweaking and fiddling with stuff (which I do enjoy), trying to get everything just the way I want it, but when it comes to playing the games I end up abandoning them very early on.

I really don't care about "the way it was meant to be played", only "the way I like to play it". I have enough experience now to know that playing on original hardware, whether with flashcarts or original copies of the games, is what gives me the most enjoyment and satisfaction. I also really like the modding side of things. What other people want to do is fine by me and I wouldn't consider anyone's preference to be idiotic.

[Classicgamer]

You can use a regular tv with a crt emu machine. That's the point of it. For example, here is SF2 arcade at native res on a regular Sony Trinitron CRT connected with SVideo:



For those that "don't like scanlines" then why would they find the original hardware any better? The entire scanline discussion is about making games look like they used to. I.e. 240p on a crt with 480 lines with half left blank.

Emulators do not add additional gaps between scanlines that weren't there on the original. You seem to be confusing unrelated issues. An original SNES played on a pro monitor would look identicle to an emulator with crt emu on the same monitor.

I can understand those who don't like the jagged edges on fine pitch broadcast monitors. I don't care for them myself (which is why I use a real arcade monitor most the time). But, this is not a fault with emulators in any way.

[Classicgamer]

As an FYI, here is a close-up of the image (through SVideo) on the consumer Sony Trinitron:



The "scanlines" (or rather the gaps between scanlines) are there, just like on original hardware.

It's just that most of us did not sit that close to a 25" or 27" screen when we were kids.

[Classicgamer]

I am super picky. I did a side by side with the SF2 arcade PCB vs my mame set-up recently on the same monitor, same res, same refresh etc and I can't see or feel any difference at all.

...and still, you managed to get one of those games which are still not properly emulated as an example.

CPS1/2 emulation is inaccurate due to the missing emulation of wait states which create timing issues, like the game going slightly faster or slower and parts where slowdown is involved (either due to how it was coded or the CPU being over 100%) getting even more inaccuracies, with some extreme examples where the slowdown is completely missing.

One example is when you throw an hadouken or do the classic shoto ToD (touch of death) combo (ie: j.HK s.HP DP): there's heavy slowdown involved and it's not the same as the arcade cab.

Emulation is cool for trying out games and see if you like them or playing them in a casual way, maybe with your friends.

If you're serious about the game (playing competitively, going for high scores, etc...) then for lots of games a real PCB is the only way to go.

EDIT: speaking of consoles... several 8-bit and 16-bits consoles emulators are pretty decent, with the greatest weakness lying in the audio department where there's still work to be done. Anything newer and all hell breaks loose.

I have none of those issues on my set-up. As I said, I had the real PCB here to compare too. I think you are either using a PC without enough juice to get the job done or your settings are wrong.

I used to notice small imperfections that bothered me when I used my arcade vga and when I used soft 15khz like tearing and missing frames etc but since installing the latest CRT EMU driver and Groovymame 197, it's perfect.

I can see on my Extron RGB interface that it always matches the exact refresh rates of the original to at least 2 decimal points.

[Kez]

By regular monitor or TV, I mean the LCD kind that every household has nowadays. Anyway, I'm just using those to illustrate that it really is just a matter of preference, and one way isn't necessarily better than another. Not everyone has a CRT or wants to use one. Original hardware isn't necessarily tied to CRT usage. In your case, it seems like being on a CRT is very important to you whereas for others using a real console is more important even on an LCD.

I do think emulators are great, but if accuracy bothers you then using real hardware gives you peace of mind. Maybe a bug you experience is present on original hardware, maybe it isn't. If that bothers you, you would have to go and look. On real hardware you know the answer. Of course it goes both ways, emulators can fix or improve games too.. rendering at a higher res or modding games for better textures. I can totally see why some people would choose to play N64, Gamecube or Wii games on emulators.

If you want to speedrun or play competitively for example, emulator runs are a separate (often less popular) category. It wouldn't even make sense to practice on an emulator as many of the tricks require frame-perfect timings to pull off. If there is even a chance of a difference in emulator performance, why risk it?

[bobrocks95]

A flashcart you just plug in. It's way easier than setting up a modern computer to output in 240p and configuring a bunch of emulators. Other factors are less lag and using original controllers without having to find old unreliable adapters like others have mentioned. And saying a flashcart is "hundreds of dollars" is a gross exaggeration, the SD2SNES is the most premium flashcart there is and it's still under $200. Unless you're talking Neo-Geo AES, where individual games are so expensive a flashcart can potentially pay for itself with a single game on it.

[Classicgamer]

One is often misled by the contention that the irrefutable truth can change men's opinions.

I can see now that the facts don't matter. It doesn't matter how many times we explain that Groovymame matches the exact output of the original, or that most lag is caused by the video processing on their LCD tv's (and therefore present even on original hardware) or from a poor choice of joystick. It doesn't matter how many times we explain that GM can be set-up with no perceivable lag.

Some people are apparently hard-wired with the first info they heard a continue to repeat it over and over again even after being told they are wrong. I can see that some minds can not be changed no matter what.

For those with the capacity to process info to shape opinions, watch this vid of a guy talking about how he used to insist on real PCBs until he tried Groovymame:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yFoVNyFmsOA

[donluca]

I have none of those issues on my set-up. As I said, I had the real PCB here to compare too. I think you are either using a PC without enough juice to get the job done or your settings are wrong.

I used to notice small imperfections that bothered me when I used my arcade vga and when I used soft 15khz like tearing and missing frames etc but since installing the latest CRT EMU driver and Groovymame 197, it's perfect.

I can see on my Extron RGB interface that it always matches the exact refresh rates of the original to at least 2 decimal points.

You might want to delve a little deeper before doing such statements or change it to "I don't notice any difference".

Here's a good start: https://mametesters.org/view.php?id=00408

And, btw, I've been using GroovyMAME for literally years with a dedicated setup (G3258 overclocked to 5Ghz, HD5450 and a Sony BVM 14M4DE). Just letting you know that I actually know a thing or two about what I'm talking about.

[Kez]

For those with the capacity to process info to shape opinions

I'm not sure why you feel the need to be so condescending about this. You started this thread seemingly just interested in people's opinions, but now apparently distressed that any of them could differ from yours.

It's great that you're happy with emulators, but that doesn't mean everybody is or should be and people who want to use original hardware are not unable to process facts.

Ultimately if exact hardware accuracy is a concern for you, emulators can only ever approach the limit that is original hardware. In this scenario, the best result you can hope for is identical to the original hardware thus is it not possible for emulators to be superior, only equal. In reality, many emulators are not perfect. Most of them are good enough for most people, and that's fine.

For me it is not about accuracy at all. I like owning the original console, I like having the console on my shelf, I like the way it looks, I like the original controllers. I would play only original games if the cost and space requirement wasn't so prohibitive so flashcarts are the happy medium I have found for myself.

Arcade is a different proposition entirely, obviously. There is so much different arcade hardware available that emulation is the only realistic choice for playing most of them.

[bobrocks95]

One is often misled by the contention that the irrefutable truth can change men's opinions.

I can see now that the facts don't matter. It doesn't matter how many times we explain that Groovymame matches the exact output of the original, or that most lag is caused by the video processing on their LCD tv's (and therefore present even on original hardware) or from a poor choice of joystick. It doesn't matter how many times we explain that GM can be set-up with no perceivable lag.

Some people are apparently hard-wired with the first info they heard a continue to repeat it over and over again even after being told they are wrong. I can see that some minds can not be changed no matter what.

For those with the capacity to process info to shape opinions, watch this vid of a guy talking about how he used to insist on real PCBs until he tried Groovymame:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yFoVNyFmsOA

A real shame you can't block people on this forum...

Glad you enjoy your emulation setup. Guess what- I have a GroovyMAME setup as well for arcade emulation, and I think it's great. It also took forever to configure properly and requires a dedicated computer with old AMD hardware I had to track down. If someone listing some reasons why that setup isn't preferred for them, then like Kez said, why did you bother making a thread to ask about it?

[bigbadboaz]

I can understand collectors buying original hardware and games but spending hundreds of dollars on a flash cartridge in 2018 is idiotic.

I actually understand this, from a different standpoint than a collector's.

If you want very much to play on original hardware - whether as a purist or if you just love having an original system there on your shelf - this allows you to do that, access any of the system's library, and bypass all the hassles of software collecting. It's a pure gameplay experience.

What I do NOT understand is the usage of systems such as the Retron 5, Retro Freak, or the new "cartridge adapter" for the SNES Classic - at least as by people who refuse to emulate on a PC and treat this as a console experience. These machines DO NOT run the cartridges you plug in, they immediately dump the ROM internally and run the game FROM AN EMULATOR. The SNES thing is a double bastardization; not only is the cartridge use a total illusion, it's simply duplicating what can already be done through the hack scene with no clunky add-ons or cost!

These machines don't improve upon the emulation concept and they're not the real-hardware solution some people treat them as despite the shells they come in. It drives me batty that there was a business case for their production, let alone that there have actually been buyers.

[nmalinoski]

What I do NOT understand is the usage of systems such as the Retron 5, Retro Freak, or the new "cartridge adapter" for the SNES Classic - at least as by people who refuse to emulate on a PC and treat this as a console experience. These machines DO NOT run the cartridges you plug in, they immediately dump the ROM internally and run the game FROM AN EMULATOR. The SNES thing is a double bastardization; not only is the cartridge use a total illusion, it's simply duplicating what can already be done through the hack scene with no clunky add-ons or cost!

True, these are all emulation systems, and they dump the ROMs instead of running them from the carts like original hardware, but I think there are several allures to these systems.

Generally, they're way more available and significantly easier to use with contemporary TVs than original hardware, while allowing people to use game carts that they have probably been sitting on for a decade or more; not to mention they'll probably last longer than the 25-to-35-year-old hardware that most people won't get recapped because they have no idea that that's even a thing; and, for the legally-minded gamer, these consoles provide a more simplistic path to exercising fair-use format shifting for the purpose of emulation, as compared to tracking down a cart dumper, figuring out how to use it, and then configuring the emulator.

[strygo]

A real shame you can't block people on this forum...

I discovered you actually can from the Tapatalk app. Amazingly, the block works on the web. I'm not going to lie, I've used it a few times.

[Galgomite]

I still prefer real hardware. It "just works." If the goal is truly to play, the best way is the one that offers the fewest tinkering options.

[bigbadboaz]

..while allowing people to use game carts that they have probably been sitting on for a decade or more

But that's the thing.. they're not "using" their carts, it's a total illusion. They could have DL'd the same ROMs decades ago and been running them on any number of other pieces of capable hardware.

If there's somebody who truly finds a Retron 5 to be the single best machine to be gaming on their TV with, I guess to each his own. But it seems in general the entire existence of this hardware niche is based on the ignorance of people who think this is the only way to run all their old games. Knowing this isn't true, and knowing how much better the whole thing can be done, is just a huge head-shaker for me.

[ZellSF]

I usually just pick whatever is best for the game and situation at the moment. For some games emulators are just better, for others real consoles are just better.

[lettuce]

Here's a good start: https://mametesters.org/view.php?id=00408

And, btw, I've been using GroovyMAME for literally years with a dedicated setup (G3258 overclocked to 5Ghz, HD5450 and a Sony BVM 14M4DE). Just letting you know that I actually know a thing or two about what I'm talking about.

That was posted over 9 years ago a lot has changed in that time!

[donluca]

Trust me, NOTHING has changed in the emulation of the wait states and I've been pestering mame devs with this issue for fucking years.

The best reply I got was on the line of "it would require a complete rewrite of the driver and no one wants to do that".
At that point I just gave up.

Try playing Progear no Arashi or even Midnight Wanderers (from the 3 Wonders game) and you'll find out that without the correct slowdowns they are much harder than they should be.

EDIT: found this old thread I made before giving up https://forum.mamedev.org/viewtopic.php ... =193&p=610

[nmalinoski]

..while allowing people to use game carts that they have probably been sitting on for a decade or more

But that's the thing.. they're not "using" their carts, it's a total illusion. They could have DL'd the same ROMs decades ago and been running them on any number of other pieces of capable hardware.

Oh, but they are using the carts. You're correct that they're not being used as intended; rather, they're being used as a simple storage medium, but that's use nonetheless.

Also, like I said, having something like the Retron 5 format-shift those ROMs is considered legal fair-use, whereas downloading those same ROMs (generally unauthorized copies/distributions; there are indeed some legitimately free ROMs available) from the internet is technically copyright infringement; so these systems also cater to the people who care about that sort of thing.

[Hoagtech]

There is an experience to using real hardware that cannot be fully replicated.

For instance. blowing on an nes cartridge while it seems frustrating at the time gives a real sense of acclompishment when you get that mega man 3 cart playable for your friends.

I can’t to this date find a cartridge blowing option in HLSL mame.

If this argument is just advantages of each than here is my emulator wishlist.

Cartridge to usb support for compiling my own collections of carts and saves. (This barely exists)

Better latency. (Noticeable to me on level 1-1 SMB3 NES.

Default interner scale

Better windows default controller support, no more J2K.

PCIe FPGA support. Load systems like sound cards and rack them up.

Proper 3D emulation on any 4th gen or above console. I’m lookin at you 64 .

Original RGB color pallete

Nividia 15 and 31 kHz support.

Options to disable save states and password protect my options.

To be fair Mame is decent but still noticeably laggier.