Military themed SciFi novels

[MintyTheCat]

Hello all,

I wondered if any of you chaps had much interest in military themed Science-Fiction novels.

I'm reading David Drake's Hammer's Slammers but I've read some of Keith Laumer's BOLO stories, Joe Haldeman's Forever... novels too.
I haven't read any of the Battletech novels and wondered if any of them were any good.

I actually found out about the Wargame OGRE through the BOLO stories:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5206/ogre

It's a good game to get into. I play using 6mm miniatures.

Let's have a chat about this form of SciFi for novels and games if you have the interest.

Cheers.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The Forever War by Joe Haldeman, although I've only read the Belgian comics (much recommended) drawn by Marvano, coloured by Bruno Marchand, not the original novel.
I see - already mentioned, but the comics were something quite formative to me.

[Mortificator]

Starship Troopers is a classic.

BattleTech's had a lot of writers over the decades, some good, some terrible. I've only read a small fraction of the novels myself, and it's hard to recommend a jumping-in point because of the large number of sourcebooks detailing aspects of the setting. Like, I enjoyed Flight of the Falcon, but it would make little sense to someone who hadn't read the equivalent of a couple history books to provide context.

On a related note, the Robotech books are surprisingly good for novelizations of Westernizations of anime. The first six, especially, which cover the original Macross portion. Part of why I prefer Robotech over Macross (Plus excepted) is due to the elaborations made in the novels.

[MintyTheCat]

The Forever War by Joe Haldeman, although I've only read the Belgian comics (much recommended) drawn by Marvano, coloured by Bruno Marchand, not the original novel.

I can recommend that you read all three of the Novels Haldeman also edited and contributed to the Study War No More book that's also worth reading.

I suppose we could add the Ender's Game by Scott Card. I found it to be a bit too juvenile for my tastes though.

[MintyTheCat]

Starship Troopers is a classic.

BattleTech's had a lot of writers over the decades, some good, some terrible. I've only read a small fraction of the novels myself, and it's hard to recommend a jumping-in point because of the large number of sourcebooks detailing aspects of the setting. Like, I enjoyed Flight of the Falcon, but it would make little sense to someone who hadn't read the equivalent of a couple history books to provide context.

On a related note, the Robotech books are surprisingly good for novelizations of Westernizations of anime. The first six, especially, which cover the original Macross portion. Part of why I prefer Robotech over Macross (Plus excepted) is due to the elaborations made in the novels.

Of course, Starship Troopers - I'm reading his Stranger in a Strange Land presently.

I quite enjoyed reading the background of Battletech to be honest but I haven't read that much personally and no novels as yet set in that Universe. I do have a copy of the most recent Battletech game on my shelf

I knwo why Macross jsut came to your mind

[Obiwanshinobi]

I know right - Ender's Game was a harbinger of Harry Potter books.

My cousin found some revisionist links between Banner of the Stars franchise and Showa period Japanese warmonging agenda.

Spoiler

A person interested in recent history of those parts of the world might find the connection interesting.

[Mischief Maker]

Believe it or not, the companion novel to the indie game Brigador is excellent.

Written by a real-life tank commander. The battle scenes are some edge of your seat stuff.

You should be able to follow the story by itself, but it helps to play the actual game and read the copious lore for context.

[drauch]

*Edit. I'm a dummy and totally forgot you wanted Sci-fi. Keeping just in case someone is interested*

I'm really into Glen Cook's Black Company series. About a group of mercenaries in a fantasy world and their various jobs and the stuff they get mixed into. But if you're not looking for fantasy then might not be your cup. But it's a nice departure from the typical high fantasy elves and wizards and good vs evil boring stuff.

Recently read Wilbur Smith's Dark of the Sun, which was a quick read with some pretty violent stuff. About Congo mercenaries trying to rescue a settlement and get back some diamonds. Surprisingly the 1968 film of the same name wound up being much nastier and better, and is one of my top favorites. The book is a bit different in a lot of regards, but there's some silly romance towards the end that isn't done well, but otherwise it's pretty exciting adventure fare..

Wish I had more to recommend. I've spend a good portion of my life with movies, so I've got some good catching up to do with books. Both Hammer's Slammers and Forever War have been on my list for a long time now, so good to see them referenced again. I'm really obsessed with mercenaries in fiction, so I've been building a list over the years. Surprisingly not that much stuff.

[BIL]

I'm really into Glen Cook's Black Company series. About a group of mercenaries in a fantasy world and their various jobs and the stuff they get mixed into. But if you're not looking for fantasy then might not be your cup. But it's a nice departure from the typical high fantasy elves and wizards and good vs evil boring stuff.

I've heard of these, they sound excellently down and dirty. Ta for reminder! Putting Dark of the Sun on the movie list too!

[Ghegs]

I read through all of the FASA and Roc Books BattleTech novels some years ago and overall I'd say the quality was good. The quality does vary, but out of the ~90 books there were only maybe five I thought were a waste of my time. And only one that never should have been written. It was great seeing the universe and many recurring characters develop over such a huge amount of books, really made the whole thing come alive. As for the jumping point, I used this list of the novels in story-chronological order and made my way from top to bottom. EndGame is the last book in the classic era, whether you want to continue to Dark Age era is debatable. It's still okay, but just not quite as good, I think. That list doesn't cover all of the Dark Age books, you might want to consult this other list for that.

Another favorite of mine are David Weber's Honor Harrington books. Really, really good stuff there.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm really obsessed with mercenaries in fiction, so I've been building a list over the years. Surprisingly not that much stuff.

Is it really that scarce?

Spoiler

Not much in games I know about, at least: Final Zone [and some other title(s) of that lore], Armored Core, Jagged Aliance, Mercenaries - nothing else comes to mind right now. Intelligent Systems may well be yearning for going there someday.

[Durandal]

I'm really into Glen Cook's Black Company series. About a group of mercenaries in a fantasy world and their various jobs and the stuff they get mixed into. But if you're not looking for fantasy then might not be your cup. But it's a nice departure from the typical high fantasy elves and wizards and good vs evil boring stuff.

I actually read the 3-in-1 Chronicles of the Black Company tankōbon recently to scratch the same itch. I liked the mercenaries doing mercenary things feeling of the first book. Most of the second book was mercenaries barely doing any mercenary things to make some room for a more personal "what can change the nature of a man" story which was alright but felt markedly out-of-place, though at least the end gets more delicious with military engineering. The third book was mercenaries doing rebel things, disappointingly. From what I heard the later books fall into kitsch territory and after reading the third book I don't feel terribly inclined to bother anymore with the newer ones.

I do like the telegram-writing style of the books, it suits the story and setting nicely. Glen Cook is a rather prosaic writer, though he does manage to turn that into his strength by telling the story from the perspective of a soldier writing down his day-to-day experiences as a mercenary, so it makes sense that the style of writing feels down-to-earth. Most of the fighting is glossed over in favor of the more quiet moments between the fighting, playing cards with comrades, or just bullshitting around. To a soldier all the fighting would become monotonous and start to blur together, whereas the more quiet moments can be a source of life. There's literally a passage in the first book which can be summarized as "We had to take over this fort. And so we did.", no time wasted on pointless fight scenes.

Black Company also avoids the pitfalls of most fantasy fiction where the author feels an otherwordly urge to slam his/her covered-in-papercuts dick on the manuscript after having unconsciously diddled the Lord of the Rings books, and then gush at length about this totally original fantasy world filled with lanky Dutchmen with Doritos for ears at constant war with mighty mutant midget vikings and the Imperial Empire led by whatever even the author deemed too bland, by barely bothering with world-building at all. Though it can be argued that that is its own source of problems, and that you should at least apply a little Tolkien to your story using the proper tool in hand if using hallucinogens to conjure up something actually original isn't a financially or legally viable option.

The third book falls flat for me because it throws away what was unique about the first one for some more generic dramatic save-the-world-but-not-really stuff, and some lore nobody really asked for. I liked being just one of several parties stuck on one side of the line drawn between hypocrites and people too lazy to lie to themselves while trying to survive long enough until the next payday. Tensions don't always have to escalate, maaan.

[drauch]

I'm really obsessed with mercenaries in fiction, so I've been building a list over the years. Surprisingly not that much stuff.

Is it really that scarce?

Yeah, you'll of course find characters here and there, but for fiction largely concerning mercenaries there's not a ton.

The third book falls flat for me because it throws away what was unique about the first one for some more generic dramatic save-the-world-but-not-really stuff, and some lore nobody really asked for.

Yeah, I kinda agree. I still really loved the third book, but it's certainly a departure. Down the road they definitely become more involved with more high-scale stuff and it starts to hurt it. You've got some more bands of nasty blokes joining them, betrayals, and some good castle sieges down the road still.

[lilmanjs]

David Webber, John Ringo and David Drake are the 3 go to authors of Military Sci-fi. Elizabeth Moon has done some fantastic stuff as well. That sub-genre is my dad's favorite, so I might know a thing or 2. Ringo personally is my favorite for the Military stuff, but Webber has that giant In Fury Born that blew me away.

[GaijinPunch]

Old Man's War. I only read the first one, but it was pretty good.

[MintyTheCat]

Old Man's War. I only read the first one, but it was pretty good.

That is a good novel, I agree. I haven't red any of the author's other works as yet but I can recommend this too. I had completely forgotten about it.

[MintyTheCat]

I read through all of the FASA and Roc Books BattleTech novels some years ago and overall I'd say the quality was good. The quality does vary, but out of the ~90 books there were only maybe five I thought were a waste of my time. And only one that never should have been written. It was great seeing the universe and many recurring characters develop over such a huge amount of books, really made the whole thing come alive. As for the jumping point, I used this list of the novels in story-chronological order and made my way from top to bottom. EndGame is the last book in the classic era, whether you want to continue to Dark Age era is debatable. It's still okay, but just not quite as good, I think. That list doesn't cover all of the Dark Age books, you might want to consult this other list for that.

Another favorite of mine are David Weber's Honor Harrington books. Really, really good stuff there.

I'll have a look at the list, Ghegs. Thanks.

Did you ever play Battletech yourself and have you ever played OGRE?

[Ghegs]

Did you ever play Battletech yourself and have you ever played OGRE?

I played BattleTech only a little bit like ~20 years ago, so I might as well say no. Never did play OGRE, either. That game genre is something I always think I'd like, but then I get bored pretty fast. The only reason I backed the new BattleTech game on Kickstarter was because one of the stretch goals was getting Michael Stackpole to write one more novel to the Classic Era, I've yet to to play the game itself at all.

[MintyTheCat]

Did you ever play Battletech yourself and have you ever played OGRE?

I played BattleTech only a little bit like ~20 years ago, so I might as well say no. Never did play OGRE, either. That game genre is something I always think I'd like, but then I get bored pretty fast. The only reason I backed the new BattleTech game on Kickstarter was because one of the stretch goals was getting Michael Stackpole to write one more novel to the Classic Era, I've yet to to play the game itself at all.

I wasn't aware of the KS for BT.

Well, many people simply are interested in the lore and background and do not play. Personally, I wanted to play wargames with 6mm scale miniatures to get that 'big war' feel and to remove the 'personality' that you tend to find with 28mm games.

OGRE is a nice and pretty simple system. Battletech is a bit more involved and 'mechanical' but some peopel really like that aspect of BT all the same.

Have a read of David Drake's 'Hammers Slammer's' novels as you may like them too.

[Blinge]

Surely Dune deserves honourable mention.

Only read the first though, bought the 2nd novel almost a year ago but now i can't find it.
This is something of a low moment..

[MintyTheCat]

Surely Dune deserves honourable mention.

Only read the first though, bought the 2nd novel almost a year ago but now i can't find it.
This is something of a low moment..

I've read all the DUNE novels by Frank Herbert. Ensure that you read Chapter House Dune.

I would not regard any of the DUNE novels as being miltary SciFi personally but they're good novels and well worth reading. Read some of Frank's other novels too I recommend.

[Blinge]

I mean, they went pretty hard on the conflict / geopolitics in the first novel.
So you want stuff that involves only military?
like War & War by Tolstoy3000

[MintyTheCat]

I mean, they went pretty hard on the conflict / geopolitics in the first novel.
So you want stuff that involves only military?
like War & War by Tolstoy3000

To me DUNE was about the politics and the betrayals and the down right underhandedness of things
Military activity is only one tool so to speak and it's not a long-term solution as opposoed to economical and political methods.

Yep, exactly - Military SciFi.

I haven't read anything by Tolstoy myself - any good?

[Mortificator]

Did you ever play Battletech yourself and have you ever played OGRE?

I played BattleTech only a little bit like ~20 years ago, so I might as well say no. Never did play OGRE, either. That game genre is something I always think I'd like, but then I get bored pretty fast. The only reason I backed the new BattleTech game on Kickstarter was because one of the stretch goals was getting Michael Stackpole to write one more novel to the Classic Era, I've yet to to play the game itself at all.

As for me, I've only played Ogre once. I played BattleTech heavily for some years via Megamek, with games arranged on various BattleTech forums and the MegamekNet servers. I think I got burned out on it, and after winning a Lords of the Battlefield tournament and on the cusp of another rules revision, I stopped.

Despite some flaws, it's definitely the best tactical mech system I've ever experienced.

[MintyTheCat]

Did you ever play Battletech yourself and have you ever played OGRE?

I played BattleTech only a little bit like ~20 years ago, so I might as well say no. Never did play OGRE, either. That game genre is something I always think I'd like, but then I get bored pretty fast. The only reason I backed the new BattleTech game on Kickstarter was because one of the stretch goals was getting Michael Stackpole to write one more novel to the Classic Era, I've yet to to play the game itself at all.

As for me, I've only played Ogre once. I played BattleTech heavily for some years via Megamek, with games arranged on various BattleTech forums and the MegamekNet servers. I think I got burned out on it, and after winning a Lords of the Battlefield tournament and on the cusp of another rules revision, I stopped.

Despite some flaws, it's definitely the best tactical mech system I've ever experienced.

It has a very long history now. I don't know anyone in Berlin or around where I live who still plays it sadly though.

I am not opposed to Mechs or anything but I like a mixture of hardware. OGRE is nearly a 100% tank based though so it suffers in a similar way to a mech only game.

I played the open source BT inspired game but I just prefer playing on a table
I'm just looking at BT books to try to work out what to read first

[MintyTheCat]

I've just started reading Battletech: Lethal Heritage

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lethal_Heritage

And

Bolos: Their Finest Hour

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7171832-bolos

[Obiwanshinobi]

I admit liking Rogue Squadron-themed novels by Michael A. Stackpole better than some Star Wars books by other authors (for what it's worth, one by R. A. Salvatore struck me as particularly offensive). In the former, I didn't even mind the protagonist being a dynastic cop by vocation (whereas in real life, there is a distinct lack of chemistry between me and their ilk*).

*) A problem I don't seem to have with dynastic musicians or doctors, who must also carry their share of cultural burden after all.

I just remembered The HORARS of War story by - early - Gene Wolfe. Apparently can be found in Nova 1 and Combat SF anthologies.

[Ghegs]

StoryBundle's newest is Military SF, 12 books for $15. https://storybundle.com/military

[Obiwanshinobi]

I wondered, the other day, if there's any sincere, speculative SCIENCE fiction anticipating warfare of the future (be it by dilettantes who, nonetheless, put some serious braiwork into it, or at least did any research on military science at all, studying the history of it in hope for guessing what comes next). Maybe The Gladiators film by Peter Watkins was an attempt of the sort, but I didn't watch it (watched Battle Athletes OAV, though, which still speculated more seriously than about every mech-themed fiction). I am suddenly quite intrigued to find only so few examples. (Sending children for fighting wars is nothing new.)

[MintyTheCat]

I wondered, the other day, if there's any sincere, speculative SCIENCE fiction anticipating warfare of the future (be it by dilettantes who, nonetheless, put some serious braiwork into it, or at least did any research on military science at all, studying the history of it in hope for guessing what comes next). Maybe The Gladiators film by Peter Watkins was an attempt of the sort, but I didn't watch it (watched Battle Athletes OAV, though, which still speculated more seriously than about every mech-themed fiction). I am suddenly quite intrigued to find only so few examples. (Sending children for fighting wars is nothing new.)

Hi,

There is.

Conflict is pretty much assured and doesn't really change its shape. They may add or alter weapons and the technology but the general way of conflict doesn't alter all that much.

Military technology kind of boils down to energy consumption, space it occupies - mass, effective destructive potential, distance to action and effect along with speed. With other factors too.
What's clear to me is that technology must aid and be effective. It's also clear that a soldier is not just a 'grunt' so to speak but often, and as technology evolves the training required of a soldier is much greater. They aren't so much information-workers but they do need to know how to handle information and infer something quickly from the screens and such. But it's like any tool really : you need to know the way of your tools and weapons are no exception. If you read the Hammer's Slammers books that may well be insightful to you.

Have a look at gasaraki for an interesting mech anime which kind of takes things in a different direction.

I am reading Battletch: Lethal Heritage, Blood of Kerensky vol. 1 presently, and they get to a stage whereby they find out that some long distant lost group have technology far in advance of them and it discusses the weight (defence often a function of weight too) to fire power ratios which you may find interesting